Vikings Message Board.Com

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:16 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:48 am

Agree to disagree. The media, for the most part, directs the blame and credit to the QB. But anyone that knows football knows it's a team game. If Cousins' defenses are giving up 35 points in most prime time games, how can anyone realistically expect him to have a winning record in those games, or one even close to being .500?? I can 100% guarantee that if you looked up every QBs defense in primetime games throughout their careers, Cousins' has been BY FAR the worst of any QB. Literally guarantee it. It's exactly why I think that stat that the media wants to throw around about him in prime time games is a crock of crap. Especially given he's played well in prime time games for the most part

I would love to see the numbers of his defenses in prime time versus what other QBs have faced. Do you have a link?

S197 wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:43 pm Article is a little dated. A week after it was written he and the team would go on to put on a pathetic attempt against the 49ers. A game where Sage, a former NFL QB, broke down something like 8 plays where Cousins missed guys that were open.

When you’re at the top of this list:

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/minnesota-vikings/

You damn well better expect to shoulder a lot.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:39 am

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 1:48 am
Holding a QB accountable for a team's win/loss record where he is one player out of 50 is ridiculous. Might as well hold the left guard, the free safety or the long snapper accountable for the team's record. If the defense is giving up 34 PPG what are the QBs chances of having a good win/loss record.

You should tell that to Cousins:

"I think the next level, really, is all about winning," Cousins said during mandatory minicamp on Wednesday. "I'm pretty much a .500 quarterback in my career so far and I don't think that's where you want to be, and that's not why you are brought in or people or excited about you.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:15 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:44 am It's a shame we have to find the flimsiest strawman arguments to knock down in an effort to 'be right' and 'win', or to 'defend our guy'. The 'bright lights' arent really the point. Silly. We all know where cousins is good and where he isnt after the last couple seasons, not to mention his Redskins days. Finding the ways to frame criticism of Cousins that are easiest to knock down, is not impressive or insighful. It's just a silly and masturbatory waste of time.

Fiesta I respect that you aren't the one making the flimsy arguments. However, Cousins Monday night record isn't a strawman. It's probably the #1 argument that people make against him. That and his record against winning teams. The problem with those is he can't control the results of those games as one player out of 50. It's not possible. He does his best and most of the time his best is pretty darn good.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:27 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:15 pm

Fiesta I respect that you aren't the one making the flimsy arguments. However, Cousins Monday night record isn't a strawman. It's probably the #1 argument that people make against him. That and his record against winning teams. The problem with those is he can't control the results of those games as one player out of 50. It's not possible. He does his best and most of the time his best is pretty darn good.

Agreed. Every time he has played on Monday night it has came up. If it’s a prime time game it has came up. They plaster the stat on the screen during the game. And then he goes out and was a hero on the road against the saints in OT. That game right there WAS the biggest game of his career up to that point and he DID win. Bigger than any MNF game, SNF game, Thursday night game, etc. But then he plays poorly and loses to SF who dominated us in every facet of the game. And it goes back to, “well he can’t win the big game because he lost to SF”. Really? Listen, cousins could’ve beat the saints AND beat the 49ers and lost to GB in the NFC championship and guess what people would be saying, “he still can’t win the big game”. And hell if he pulled that off against the top 2 teams (IMO) in the NFC on the road as a massive underdog, that would’ve been insane. But at this point, if cousins doesn’t win a SB he will forever be a loser in some fans eyes. Granted that’s the ultimate goal but dan Marino never got one and he was one of the greatest to ever do it. Not comparing cousins and Marino but nobody is calling marino a loser. And what did Marino bring to Miami? Not a SB trophy. Hell look at manning. IMO he’s the greatest QB of all time and played for 17 years and only got his 2nd SB ring at the backend of his career riding the coattails of an elite defense. I just feel like some fans just act like it’s so easy. And because cousins took over a 13-3 team it should just be a shoe-in. Like no, that’s not the case and not how the nfl works. Players change, coaches change, schemes change, players age, you go from a 3rd place schedule to a 1st place schedule, other teams get better, etc. There is SO much that plays into that. Not just 1 player. You win the SB as a team. As great as Mahomes is, he’s not winning a SB if it wasn’t for his defense making key stops in that 2nd half. That defense isn’t winning a SB if Mahomes doesn’t make key plays in the 2nd half. Do we see how they go hand in hand?

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:00 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:16 pm
I would love to see the numbers of his defenses in prime time versus what other QBs have faced. Do you have a link?

No Kyle Brandt said it on good morning football last year leading up to the Thursday night game vs Washington. He actually said that his numbers were better, he played better, etc but his defenses averaged 34.2 points per game given up. I’d love to know another QB that had their defense consistently play that bad during prime time throughout their career. I can guarantee nobody touches 34.2 points per game. And if they somehow did, I can sure as shi# guarantee you that QB doesn’t have anywhere near a winning prime time record

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 9:48 pm What is this now? If he only has 1/50th of the impact on whether we win or lose a game, why the heck are we paying him 1/8th of the cap?

Let's just throw Mannion out there at a fraction of the price if that is the case.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 9:48 pm What is this now? If he only has 1/50th of the impact on whether we win or lose a game, why the heck are we paying him 1/8th of the cap?

Let's just throw Mannion out there at a fraction of the price if that is the case.

You make a fair point. The QB contributes proportionately more to the outcome on offense than any other single offensive player which is why QBs make so much.

Let's just agree that Cousins is a competent QB who can win with solid play around him. He's not a guy who is going to necessarily devise miracles and conjure something out of nothing, but if the team plays well he will win more than he loses and can win the big games.

If we can agree that is a fair description of Cousins, then who is/was available that is a better option? Mannion is not a better option. He'll be paid far less and will likely perform in ways that would detract from an otherwise competent team performance. The same could be said for a lot of other guys who are available either through trade or FA.

So Spielman has Cousins under center. If the Vikings get rid of him, the only way that makes sense to me is if they find a better QB. I just don't see who that QB would be. Maybe they could have drafted one. Maybe they could have even aggressively moved up to draft one. But there are no guarantees in the draft, and in this particular draft I certainly didn't see a QB prospect I thought was better than even odds to become a competent starter over time. IMHO, the first guy off the board in this last draft is likely to have a pro career that will more resemble Kirk Cousins' career than it will Drew Brees' career.

It just isn't worth complaining about at this point. Yeah, the Vikings have a lot invested at QB. Yeah, they probably aren't getting, nor are going to get, the superlative level of play at the position from Cousins that other teams get with some other highly paid veteran QBs. But I'd argue that doesn't matter, both because there are no surefire better options at the position (highly-paid or not), but also because teams can get to and win Superbowls with lower levels of performance than the Vikings have gotten from Kirk Cousins. Cousins hovers at the border between the really good and good starting QBs in the league. The Vikings are probably overpaying him for what they get, but I don't think they could get anything better than that for any amount of money, at least right now.

I don't like that the Vikings have seemingly ignored the QB position in the draft, but even there, their draft position hasn't put them in a great position to take a flyer on a solid prospect in most years. All things being equal, I prefer the draft to be played in a way similar to how Spielman is playing it, that being taking obvious value where it presents itself and, where it doesn't, trading back for more swings.

Honestly, I was a lot more worried about the offensive line heading into this season than the QB, RB, TE or WR positions. In nearly every game the Vikings got whacked last year it was because the offensive line just couldn't get it done running or passing. Cousins caught some well-deserved flak for his contributions to those losses, but from where I sat I didn't see another QB doing much better with the play in front of him. Hopefully that improves this season, and I think if it does Cousins is going to have a great year.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 12:21 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:00 pm

No Kyle Brandt said it on good morning football last year leading up to the Thursday night game vs Washington. He actually said that his numbers were better, he played better, etc but his defenses averaged 34.2 points per game given up. I’d love to know another QB that had their defense consistently play that bad during prime time throughout their career. I can guarantee nobody touches 34.2 points per game. And if they somehow did, I can sure as shi# guarantee you that QB doesn’t have anywhere near a winning prime time record

Either you are remembering the stat wrong or Brandt was wrong.

S197 wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 10:40 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm

You make a fair point. The QB contributes proportionately more to the outcome on offense than any other single offensive player which is why QBs make so much.

Let's just agree that Cousins is a competent QB who can win with solid play around him. He's not a guy who is going to necessarily devise miracles and conjure something out of nothing, but if the team plays well he will win more than he loses and can win the big games.

If we can agree that is a fair description of Cousins, then who is/was available that is a better option? Mannion is not a better option. He'll be paid far less and will likely perform in ways that would detract from an otherwise competent team performance. The same could be said for a lot of other guys who are available either through trade or FA.

So Spielman has Cousins under center. If the Vikings get rid of him, the only way that makes sense to me is if they find a better QB. I just don't see who that QB would be. Maybe they could have drafted one. Maybe they could have even aggressively moved up to draft one. But there are no guarantees in the draft, and in this particular draft I certainly didn't see a QB prospect I thought was better than even odds to become a competent starter over time. IMHO, the first guy off the board in this last draft is likely to have a pro career that will more resemble Kirk Cousins' career than it will Drew Brees' career.

It just isn't worth complaining about at this point. Yeah, the Vikings have a lot invested at QB. Yeah, they probably aren't getting, nor are going to get, the superlative level of play at the position from Cousins that other teams get with some other highly paid veteran QBs. But I'd argue that doesn't matter, both because there are no surefire better options at the position (highly-paid or not), but also because teams can get to and win Superbowls with lower levels of performance than the Vikings have gotten from Kirk Cousins. Cousins hovers at the border between the really good and good starting QBs in the league. The Vikings are probably overpaying him for what they get, but I don't think they could get anything better than that for any amount of money, at least right now.

I don't like that the Vikings have seemingly ignored the QB position in the draft, but even there, their draft position hasn't put them in a great position to take a flyer on a solid prospect in most years. All things being equal, I prefer the draft to be played in a way similar to how Spielman is playing it, that being taking obvious value where it presents itself and, where it doesn't, trading back for more swings.

Honestly, I was a lot more worried about the offensive line heading into this season than the QB, RB, TE or WR positions. In nearly every game the Vikings got whacked last year it was because the offensive line just couldn't get it done running or passing. Cousins caught some well-deserved flak for his contributions to those losses, but from where I sat I didn't see another QB doing much better with the play in front of him. Hopefully that improves this season, and I think if it does Cousins is going to have a great year.

This neglects the impact of the salary cap. Resources, in this case money, is limited and when you invest so much in one player that by definition means less to put on everyone else. So you can’t have the perfect OL, great defense and all the other tools Cousins needs to succeed. In short, like you said Cousins isn’t a guy that elevates the play of those around him and that’s what you need to do with a contract of his size.

I don’t mind Rick grabbing Cousins and taking a shot but I do disagree with the extension when he’s clearly not the guy that is putting this team over the top. Not to mention Ricks drafting strategy that regardless of draft position he continues to neglect the QB position. 15 draft picks and still waiting until the 7th round really emphasizes this. And it’s not just this year, we have over a decade of drafts with the exact same strategy.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 12:03 am

S197 wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 10:40 pm

This neglects the impact of the salary cap. Resources, in this case money, is limited and when you invest so much in one player that by definition means less to put on everyone else. So you can’t have the perfect OL, great defense and all the other tools Cousins needs to succeed. In short, like you said Cousins isn’t a guy that elevates the play of those around him and that’s what you need to do with a contract of his size.

I don’t mind Rick grabbing Cousins and taking a shot but I do disagree with the extension when he’s clearly not the guy that is putting this team over the top. Not to mention Ricks drafting strategy that regardless of draft position he continues to neglect the QB position. 15 draft picks and still waiting until the 7th round really emphasizes this. And it’s not just this year, we have over a decade of drafts with the exact same strategy.

Then I guess I don’t understand where you think we should’ve taken a QB. A while back I also broke down the starting QBs for every team, where they were drafted and the chances of us hitting on anything outside of the top of the first round. The chances were as slim as slim gets. So whether we took a QB in the 4th vs the 7th round, the outcome is very much the same more often than not. You’re getting a decent backup at best or a guy that gets cut at worst. Our options this year were Hurts, Eason, Fromm and a slew of wildcards. I can honestly say I don’t see a single one of them ever panning out or becoming any sort of legitimate starter.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 11:56 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 12:21 pm

Either you are remembering the stat wrong or Brandt was wrong.

No I don’t believe it is either one of those. I distinctly remember Brandt saying that before the Washington game. He broke down all the games and figured all the averages. This isn’t the first time I posted it on here either

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm You make a fair point. The QB contributes proportionately more to the outcome on offense than any other single offensive player which is why QBs make so much.

Let's just agree that Cousins is a competent QB who can win with solid play around him. He's not a guy who is going to necessarily devise miracles and conjure something out of nothing, but if the team plays well he will win more than he loses and can win the big games.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm If we can agree that is a fair description of Cousins, then who is/was available that is a better option? Mannion is not a better option. He'll be paid far less and will likely perform in ways that would detract from an otherwise competent team performance. The same could be said for a lot of other guys who are available either through trade or FA.

So Spielman has Cousins under center. If the Vikings get rid of him, the only way that makes sense to me is if they find a better QB. I just don't see who that QB would be. Maybe they could have drafted one. Maybe they could have even aggressively moved up to draft one. But there are no guarantees in the draft, and in this particular draft I certainly didn't see a QB prospect I thought was better than even odds to become a competent starter over time. IMHO, the first guy off the board in this last draft is likely to have a pro career that will more resemble Kirk Cousins' career than it will Drew Brees' career.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm It just isn't worth complaining about at this point. Yeah, the Vikings have a lot invested at QB. Yeah, they probably aren't getting, nor are going to get, the superlative level of play at the position from Cousins that other teams get with some other highly paid veteran QBs. But I'd argue that doesn't matter, both because there are no surefire better options at the position (highly-paid or not), but also because teams can get to and win Superbowls with lower levels of performance than the Vikings have gotten from Kirk Cousins. Cousins hovers at the border between the really good and good starting QBs in the league. The Vikings are probably overpaying him for what they get, but I don't think they could get anything better than that for any amount of money, at least right now.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm I don't like that the Vikings have seemingly ignored the QB position in the draft, but even there, their draft position hasn't put them in a great position to take a flyer on a solid prospect in most years. All things being equal, I prefer the draft to be played in a way similar to how Spielman is playing it, that being taking obvious value where it presents itself and, where it doesn't, trading back for more swings.

Honestly, I was a lot more worried about the offensive line heading into this season than the QB, RB, TE or WR positions. In nearly every game the Vikings got whacked last year it was because the offensive line just couldn't get it done running or passing. Cousins caught some well-deserved flak for his contributions to those losses, but from where I sat I didn't see another QB doing much better with the play in front of him. Hopefully that improves this season, and I think if it does Cousins is going to have a great year.

S197 wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 10:40 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm

You make a fair point. The QB contributes proportionately more to the outcome on offense than any other single offensive player which is why QBs make so much.

Let's just agree that Cousins is a competent QB who can win with solid play around him. He's not a guy who is going to necessarily devise miracles and conjure something out of nothing, but if the team plays well he will win more than he loses and can win the big games.

If we can agree that is a fair description of Cousins, then who is/was available that is a better option? Mannion is not a better option. He'll be paid far less and will likely perform in ways that would detract from an otherwise competent team performance. The same could be said for a lot of other guys who are available either through trade or FA.

So Spielman has Cousins under center. If the Vikings get rid of him, the only way that makes sense to me is if they find a better QB. I just don't see who that QB would be. Maybe they could have drafted one. Maybe they could have even aggressively moved up to draft one. But there are no guarantees in the draft, and in this particular draft I certainly didn't see a QB prospect I thought was better than even odds to become a competent starter over time. IMHO, the first guy off the board in this last draft is likely to have a pro career that will more resemble Kirk Cousins' career than it will Drew Brees' career.

It just isn't worth complaining about at this point. Yeah, the Vikings have a lot invested at QB. Yeah, they probably aren't getting, nor are going to get, the superlative level of play at the position from Cousins that other teams get with some other highly paid veteran QBs. But I'd argue that doesn't matter, both because there are no surefire better options at the position (highly-paid or not), but also because teams can get to and win Superbowls with lower levels of performance than the Vikings have gotten from Kirk Cousins. Cousins hovers at the border between the really good and good starting QBs in the league. The Vikings are probably overpaying him for what they get, but I don't think they could get anything better than that for any amount of money, at least right now.

I don't like that the Vikings have seemingly ignored the QB position in the draft, but even there, their draft position hasn't put them in a great position to take a flyer on a solid prospect in most years. All things being equal, I prefer the draft to be played in a way similar to how Spielman is playing it, that being taking obvious value where it presents itself and, where it doesn't, trading back for more swings.

Honestly, I was a lot more worried about the offensive line heading into this season than the QB, RB, TE or WR positions. In nearly every game the Vikings got whacked last year it was because the offensive line just couldn't get it done running or passing. Cousins caught some well-deserved flak for his contributions to those losses, but from where I sat I didn't see another QB doing much better with the play in front of him. Hopefully that improves this season, and I think if it does Cousins is going to have a great year.

This neglects the impact of the salary cap. Resources, in this case money, is limited and when you invest so much in one player that by definition means less to put on everyone else. So you can’t have the perfect OL, great defense and all the other tools Cousins needs to succeed. In short, like you said Cousins isn’t a guy that elevates the play of those around him and that’s what you need to do with a contract of his size.

I don’t mind Rick grabbing Cousins and taking a shot but I do disagree with the extension when he’s clearly not the guy that is putting this team over the top. Not to mention Ricks drafting strategy that regardless of draft position he continues to neglect the QB position. 15 draft picks and still waiting until the 7th round really emphasizes this. And it’s not just this year, we have over a decade of drafts with the exact same strategy.

S197 wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 12:56 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 12:03 am

Then I guess I don’t understand where you think we should’ve taken a QB. A while back I also broke down the starting QBs for every team, where they were drafted and the chances of us hitting on anything outside of the top of the first round. The chances were as slim as slim gets. So whether we took a QB in the 4th vs the 7th round, the outcome is very much the same more often than not. You’re getting a decent backup at best or a guy that gets cut at worst. Our options this year were Hurts, Eason, Fromm and a slew of wildcards. I can honestly say I don’t see a single one of them ever panning out or becoming any sort of legitimate starter.

The last guy we drafted mid-round was John David Booty well over a decade ago. Are you saying we haven’t had an opportunity to draft anyone since then? And it’s all the more ironic considering we’re giving a 4th round pick who was taken to be a backup a mega contract. I’m pretty sure we would’ve done better with Dak Prescott or Jacoby Brissett than Willie Beavers. That’s purely hindsight driven, I’ll admit that, but it shows why you need to take those chances. Because sometimes you do find a Prescott, Wilson, Cousins, etc. in the mid rounds. Even if the hit rate is low, the importance of the position is so high it’s simply a risk you need to take once in a while.

I think Eason has a pretty good shot. Hurts went early otherwise he would be a contender. At the very least he can play a Taysom Hill type of role for a team.

You miss 100% of the shots you never take. Rick doesn’t take shots. Forget about this year, you can look over his entire career here and the narrative fits.