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mansquatch wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:03 pm Cousins isn't bad against all good teams. The ATL team we beat last week isn't a bad team. They gutted out a win vs. PHI last night. In the game we lost against LAR, he was probably the best player on the team that day. In the first GB game last season he put us in a position to win several times. The kicker let us down.

They have been games where he has been garbage also. Yesterday was probably the best example we've seen since he signed his contract. Still, hard to give all the blame to him when the Defense surrenders 21 points in the 1st quarter. You can probably lay 7 of those points on Cousins due to the turnover, but the other 14 were all on the D. Not many teams win when they start out down 14-0. I'm not apologize for Cousin's mistakes yesterday, they were awful, but it is silly to not look at how the whole team contributed to the mess.

I'm witholding judgement until week 8. If we are 4-4, then there are probably a lot of issues. If we are 6-2. Well... different story.

mansquatch wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:34 am What annoyed me most about Cousins in this game is we have seen him play A LOT better than he did on Sunday. He was missing a lot of throws.

I wonder if something else is at play here. Like maybe they spent most of training camp installing the zone running scheme and didn't give the passing game the time it needs to develop the crispness required to be successful in the NFL? That is just speculation, but we saw a lot of situations yesterday where Kirk overthrew receivers or, in the case of the Rudolph end zone throw they were not on the same page. It is one thing when a rookie WR / TE makes that mistake. It is another when two vets have it happen. It is obvious that the passing game is not where it needs to be right now in terms of execution. How soon can they fix it?

Given the veteran coaching on the offensive staff, there really isn't a good excuse, so in the end it is just frustrating.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:24 pm I also don't feel comfortable lying and saying it wasn't 95% Cousins fault we lost to the Packers because the defense gave up a below average number of points and rushing yards to the Bears. If you want to change the wager to something I am willing to do, I am game though.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:26 pm

mansquatch wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:34 am What annoyed me most about Cousins in this game is we have seen him play A LOT better than he did on Sunday. He was missing a lot of throws.

I wonder if something else is at play here. Like maybe they spent most of training camp installing the zone running scheme and didn't give the passing game the time it needs to develop the crispness required to be successful in the NFL? That is just speculation, but we saw a lot of situations yesterday where Kirk overthrew receivers or, in the case of the Rudolph end zone throw they were not on the same page. It is one thing when a rookie WR / TE makes that mistake. It is another when two vets have it happen. It is obvious that the passing game is not where it needs to be right now in terms of execution. How soon can they fix it?

Given the veteran coaching on the offensive staff, there really isn't a good excuse, so in the end it is just frustrating.

This! I’ve been thinking this as well along the way.

Again, not making excuses for cousins. He played like crap yesterday, I’ve said it multiple times, don’t need guys jumping down my throat here.

My take: Kirk cousins is not an under center QB. At least when it comes to being under center THIS much. The guy can operate under center but we’re throwing the majority of our passes from under center. I don’t buy the “it’s the main part of kubiaks offense”. It’s not because Manning was hardly ever under center in Denver. They still made it work out of the gun. I feel like this constant under center stuff is more zimmers doing than anyone.

I’m just saying, balance it out. Dalvin cook is a beast. The guy can run just as well out of the gun. We don’t have the OL for constant 5-7 step drops from under center. One thing I will say, Kirk has done a MUCH better job when it comes to evading pressure. But there are just some that are obviously unavoidable. I mean let’s be honest, there isn’t a team in the nfl anywhere close to as many under center snaps as we have. I think it’s excessive and out of kirks comfort zone as it would be with most QBs. Diggs and thielen seem frustrated at times. I mean I’m all for being a run first team but we also have an elite WR duo that we aren’t utilizing.

I feel like we went from pass happy to hardly using the pass from last year to now. Balance was key but now I feel like we went in the opposite direction. Granted yesterday was a little more balanced but not from an under center stand point. And maybe they didn’t have this passing game prepared like they should have.

Cousins isn’t an inaccurate QB. I think he’s one of the better pure passers in the nfl. So this is strange. Some of yesterday’s passes were his fault, some were guys not doing their jobs. Run the crap out of the ball, I’m loving it but get creative in the passing game here. It seems like a very “high school” offense. Like how often are we going to run the same play action roll out directly into an unblocked DE? I haven’t seen a single pass play in two games where I’ve said to myself “wow that was a well designed play”. Outside of Beebe’s catch yesterday (which by the way was an elite route on his part) but I don’t think that was by design. That was just a smart option route by Beebe.

Either way, I think it will be fixed. I’m starting to think the pass game is part lack of execution and part lack of creativity. But cousins really doesn’t worry me. I know he can make all the throws. I just want a good balance of running from under center, running from the gun, passing from the gun, passing from under center. Not just sit under center all game, especially with Bradbury’s sweaty as# lol

Alaskan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:26 pm

This! I’ve been thinking this as well along the way.

Again, not making excuses for cousins. He played like crap yesterday, I’ve said it multiple times, don’t need guys jumping down my throat here.

My take: Kirk cousins is not an under center QB. At least when it comes to being under center THIS much. The guy can operate under center but we’re throwing the majority of our passes from under center. I don’t buy the “it’s the main part of kubiaks offense”. It’s not because Manning was hardly ever under center in Denver. They still made it work out of the gun. I feel like this constant under center stuff is more zimmers doing than anyone.

I’m just saying, balance it out. Dalvin cook is a beast. The guy can run just as well out of the gun. We don’t have the OL for constant 5-7 step drops from under center. One thing I will say, Kirk has done a MUCH better job when it comes to evading pressure. But there are just some that are obviously unavoidable. I mean let’s be honest, there isn’t a team in the nfl anywhere close to as many under center snaps as we have. I think it’s excessive and out of kirks comfort zone as it would be with most QBs. Diggs and thielen seem frustrated at times. I mean I’m all for being a run first team but we also have an elite WR duo that we aren’t utilizing.

I feel like we went from pass happy to hardly using the pass from last year to now. Balance was key but now I feel like we went in the opposite direction. Granted yesterday was a little more balanced but not from an under center stand point. And maybe they didn’t have this passing game prepared like they should have.

Cousins isn’t an inaccurate QB. I think he’s one of the better pure passers in the nfl. So this is strange. Some of yesterday’s passes were his fault, some were guys not doing their jobs. Run the crap out of the ball, I’m loving it but get creative in the passing game here. It seems like a very “high school” offense. Like how often are we going to run the same play action roll out directly into an unblocked DE? I haven’t seen a single pass play in two games where I’ve said to myself “wow that was a well designed play”. Outside of Beebe’s catch yesterday (which by the way was an elite route on his part) but I don’t think that was by design. That was just a smart option route by Beebe.

Either way, I think it will be fixed. I’m starting to think the pass game is part lack of execution and part lack of creativity. But cousins really doesn’t worry me. I know he can make all the throws. I just want a good balance of running from under center, running from the gun, passing from the gun, passing from under center. Not just sit under center all game, especially with Bradbury’s sweaty as# lol

Just an FYI. Payton Manning ran primarily out of the pistol in Denver in 2015 under Kubiak. There is a difference. This article goes into some detail as too why. There are several other articles as well.

http://nocoastbias.com/how-the-pistol-f ... e-broncos/

Let’s be real. Cousins in no Manning pre snap. Few are. Cousins is average at BEST pre snap. And that is probably being generous. The truth is he operates best out of play action from under center. Your a big stat guy. Look it up. A simple google search will do.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:25 pm

Alaskan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm


Just an FYI. Payton Manning ran primarily out of the pistol in Denver in 2015 under Kubiak. There is a difference. This article goes into some detail as too why. There are several other articles as well.

http://nocoastbias.com/how-the-pistol-f ... e-broncos/

Let’s be real. Cousins in no Manning pre snap. Few are. Cousins is average at BEST pre snap. And that is probably being generous. The truth is he operates best out of play action from under center. Your a big stat guy. Look it up. A simple google search will do.

I’m aware play action is his forte. But you can run play action out of the gun and if you have successful runs out of the gun (which should happen given cook is leading the nfl in rushing) there is no reason that shouldn’t work. And in turn, it gives Cousins more time to throw. When he goes into a 7 step drop, I hold my breath because I’m waiting for him to get smothered. A perfect example was his fumble yesterday. Kenny Clark dominated our entire interior and got a clean shot at cousins and in turn, it resulted in a fumble.

Like I said before, I think cousins has done a solid job in the pocket. He’s made a lot of contested throws and has escaped a lot of pressure and made good plays. But for every couple good plays he makes, a sack, fumble or pick are going to come. He can’t dodge them all. He was under pressure 60% of his throws yesterday. SIXTY! That’s unheard of. I mean how long does a 7 step drop take from under center? 3 seconds? That’s 3 seconds less he’s getting to read a defense. And it’s 3 seconds longer his OL has to hold up a DL. That’s an eternity.

And somehow, Cousins was sacked 1 time yesterday. That’s what I’m saying with him doing a good job getting away from pressure and being more aware than last year. Being under pressure 60% of your drop backs and getting sacked once is good on the QB but when you’re inaccurate and throwing picks like he was isn’t. But is that pressure causing that? I would say yes simply because Cousins has never been an inaccurate QB. So take it for what it’s worth it’s just I think this can be “somewhat solved” by getting into the gun and running out of the gun more. Not all game, not changing our entire look, just look to utilize it more.

It’s not like we’re the 2012 Vikings that have to force our RB to carry us because we have no QB or WRs. We have a talented QB and two legit WRs with other weapons sprinkled in. Balance. Just fricken balance. Throw new looks at these teams. Show some creativity. Keep defenses on their toes. And figure out this pass protection

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:42 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:03 am

I'd say the same about the Vikings defense under Mike Zimmer.

Well let's take a look at last year?

Against the Rams, 100% the defense sucked in that game.

Eagles? Nope, held the Eagles to 14 until a last minute garbage TD.

Saints? 23 points given up by the defense against a team that averaged 32. Didn't shut them down, but held them to well below their average.

Bears? Held them to 18, turned them over 3 times.

NE? Held an offense that averaged 27 to 24 and fell apart at the end giving up 14 points in the final quarter and a half. Against the greatest QB of all time with the offense doing nothing the entire game.

Seattle? 14 points given up.

Chicago? 24 points given up against a team that averaged 26.

One out of 7 playoff teams scored more points than they averaged on the season. 3 out of the 7 I would argue were really good defensive performances. 3 more were at least above average performances.

Room for improvement, but Zimmer's defenses are far from consistently "bad" against good teams.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:14 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:25 pm

I’m aware play action is his forte. But you can run play action out of the gun and if you have successful runs out of the gun (which should happen given cook is leading the nfl in rushing) there is no reason that shouldn’t work. And in turn, it gives Cousins more time to throw. When he goes into a 7 step drop, I hold my breath because I’m waiting for him to get smothered. A perfect example was his fumble yesterday. Kenny Clark dominated our entire interior and got a clean shot at cousins and in turn, it resulted in a fumble.

Like I said before, I think cousins has done a solid job in the pocket. He’s made a lot of contested throws and has escaped a lot of pressure and made good plays. But for every couple good plays he makes, a sack, fumble or pick are going to come. He can’t dodge them all. He was under pressure 60% of his throws yesterday. SIXTY! That’s unheard of. I mean how long does a 7 step drop take from under center? 3 seconds? That’s 3 seconds less he’s getting to read a defense. And it’s 3 seconds longer his OL has to hold up a DL. That’s an eternity.

And somehow, Cousins was sacked 1 time yesterday. That’s what I’m saying with him doing a good job getting away from pressure and being more aware than last year. Being under pressure 60% of your drop backs and getting sacked once is good on the QB but when you’re inaccurate and throwing picks like he was isn’t. But is that pressure causing that? I would say yes simply because Cousins has never been an inaccurate QB. So take it for what it’s worth it’s just I think this can be “somewhat solved” by getting into the gun and running out of the gun more. Not all game, not changing our entire look, just look to utilize it more.

It’s not like we’re the 2012 Vikings that have to force our RB to carry us because we have no QB or WRs. We have a talented QB and two legit WRs with other weapons sprinkled in. Balance. Just fricken balance. Throw new looks at these teams. Show some creativity. Keep defenses on their toes. And figure out this pass protection

His number from the gun with PA is notably worst. He is better at the line.

Your correct!
And on top of that the percentage of negative run plays goes up from the gun.....or pistol. If you have Payton Manning as your quarterback who could dissect a defense pre snap and make checks at the line those percentages of negative plays go way down. Cousins is not that guy......or anything close. I can see our run game and pass game going in the wrong direction if we start operating out of the gun or pistol more. Play action from under center is Cousins biggest asset. The interior line is gonna be an issue all year. Cousins needs to protect the ball, period. Take a sack, throw it away. Live to play another down, or punt and lean on your defense. Kubiaks system is as good as it’s going to get for Cousins. No more excuses. That’s all I hear from people about him. He has never been a winner, ever. He’s a liability IMO. The weakest link at the most important position on a roster that is stacked top to bottom. I have been saying this since before we signed him. As much as I like Kubiak and his system and this team in general, I have been having a hard time getting excited about these past couple seasons for one reason. Kirk Cousins. He’s a high character guy, a great person and probably good for business........but those things don’t equal wins on the football field and thats what I care about most

allday1991 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:42 am

Well let's take a look at last year?

Against the Rams, 100% the defense sucked in that game.

Eagles? Nope, held the Eagles to 14 until a last minute garbage TD.

Saints? 23 points given up by the defense against a team that averaged 32. Didn't shut them down, but held them to well below their average.

Bears? Held them to 18, turned them over 3 times.

NE? Held an offense that averaged 27 to 24 and fell apart at the end giving up 14 points in the final quarter and a half. Against the greatest QB of all time with the offense doing nothing the entire game.

Seattle? 14 points given up.

Chicago? 24 points given up against a team that averaged 26.

One out of 7 playoff teams scored more points than they averaged on the season. 3 out of the 7 I would argue were really good defensive performances. 3 more were at least above average performances.

Room for improvement, but Zimmer's defenses are far from consistently "bad" against good teams.

What I take from this is that we are slightly better than the average defense, which is a real problem because that's where we have invested the majority of our salary and draft picks, for slightly better than average.

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:24 pm The name of this thread isn't 'Kirk Cousins is NOT a good quarterback". He can make all the throws. He can make the plays. And there are games when he does. But there are also games, and it seems that's it's becoming obvious that they are usually important games, where he doesn't. In the history of football, there have always been those types that can look great UNTIL the big game.

It's not the execution. Like many point out, maybe receivers are running bad routes; maybe the OL isn't providing protection; maybe the refs are making awful calls...it doesn't matter. Because in a big game when none of that is true; when everyone around him is playing near perfectly, he will falter.

What completely blows me away is this: I never took a snap in the pros, nor in college, nor in high school. The only time I ever took a snap was playing back yard football, YET if I had been shoved into the game on Sunday on the 1st down play, and the call from the sidelines was a pass, I would know in the huddle, and when I lined up behind center, that unless there was a receiver WIDE open, I'm throwing the ball away. If I get any pressure, I'm throwing the ball away. So how is it that "non-football playing me" knows this, but an experienced NFL QB doesn't? Winners know when NOT to take sacks. Winners know when NOT to try and force a throw. Losers do it time after time after time. Thus they will never take their team to the big game. They just become a QB with great stats every year that watch the playoffs on TV.