Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

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What's your overall assessment of the Vikings after 4 games?

They've overachieved.
1
3%
They've underachieved.
14
35%
They've been what you expected thus far.
25
63%
 
Total votes: 40

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Mothman
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by Mothman »

DK Sweets wrote:Jim, I respect you greatly. I hope you know this, and just in case, I want to state it again. I respect you. I also happen to disagree with you in this matter.

The Vikings could have beaten the Broncos. We all would have been happy if they had, and it would have been a huge feather in their cap. That said, I feel like your desire to see them succeed is clouding your judgement on this one.

Good teams lose to other good teams, especially when they are playing on the road. To be so upset that the Vikings lost by three points and to hold it against them so strongly seems unfair.
:lol: You guys are seriously misreading me on this. I was making a lighthearted observation, not a harsh judgment, and everybody wants to argue about it.

I'm not particularly upset or holding the Denver loss against the Vikes "strongly". I was just pointing out something I found interesting and amusing about the psychology of fans. I understand fundamental concepts like how the quality of an opponent influences fan expectations and reactions to sports. Honestly! This isn't my first rodeo.

Nothing kills a joke like having to explain it 5 times. :) Now I expect all of you to write a paper about irony and turn it in by the end of the week. Everybody start with this definition:
Irony: a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.
You'll be graded on a curve and good spelling counts!

(Again, I'm trying to be lighthearted. Please don't throw produce at me).
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Mothman
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

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Just Me wrote: :D :D :D This is one of those cases where I might truly be failing to see what you are saying (or you are failing to see what I'm saying).

This is not a case of who they are playing (at least in my mind). It is a case of how they played. They played very poorly against a team that (had they played as well against them as they played against Denver) they would have beaten SF handily. The played pretty well (overall) against Denver (Giving up the sacks notwithstanding) and lost. Had they played Denver with the same intensity/execution/game plan as they did in SF, Denver likely would have won 40 to 0.

So, yes the team they played does matter within the context that Denver is a much tougher opponent, so I would expect a more narrow margin of victory. The fact that the Vikings came out and stunk up the place doesn't make me respect SF more because they beat the Vikings by more points than Denver, it simply makes me respect the Vikings performance less. (at least on that night). That actually has less to do with Denver/SF and more to do with how the Vikings can (vs did) play.
Exactly, and the irony lies in how they did play. People are saying the Vikings should have won the game in which they played the worst. Thus, we have a situation that fits the (actual) definition I just posted in jest: an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.

Just to hammer the point home: as we all know, sports teams usually lose when they play very poorly. Expecting a win under those circumstances is where the irony comes in.

Edit: I just thought of another way to explain it so I'll throw this in:

Imagine you knew nothing about the Vikings, 49ers or Broncos before watching those games but you understood football. If you watched those two performances, knowing nothing about the teams and thus having no expectations based on stats, records, etc which game would you say the Vikes should have won? I would think most people would say they should have won the broncos game (if they were going to pick either) because clearly, they were outplayed and defeated pretty badly by the 49ers (which, just so DK knows, is the game I was and remain far more upset about).
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by mondry »

By now it should be pretty obvious that the week 1 game was a total fluke. It happens, anytime a midwest or east coast team goes to the west coast for a NIGHT game they're at a huge disadvantage.

Watch PIT @ SD this monday night for another example.

Add in that it was week 1 and it was just the perfect storm going against us.
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Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by DK Sweets »

You're right Jim, I did misread your post. I had it in my head that you were very upset with the team for losing (read upset, not disappointed). I jumped to conclusions.
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by jackal »

I gave them an underachieved simply because of the SF game... That should have been a win .....

If the team does that much more I won't pay to watch them at all ...

Losing a tough game on the road to a Superbowl team a few years back is one
thing. Yeah I would rather them won, but they for the most part gave their best.

I kinda blame the coaching staff as a whole for not addressing the OL spot.. I know their
was several injuries, but damn .. how many years are we going to lose games because
of swiss cheese OL
no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Mothman
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by Mothman »

DK Sweets wrote:You're right Jim, I did misread your post. I had it in my head that you were very upset with the team for losing (read upset, not disappointed). I jumped to conclusions.
No worries, DK. I obviously need to work on my communication skills during the bye because I keep being misinterpreted this week. :)

I'm pretty stressed out about some life stuff right now too so maybe some of that stress is creeping into my tone and people are picking up on it. I hope not.

Anyway, Josh had it right with the Picard meme. I blew that one!
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by Just Me »

Mothman wrote: Exactly, and the irony lies in how they did play. People are saying the Vikings should have won the game in which they played the worst. Thus, we have a situation that fits the (actual) definition I just posted in jest: an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.

Just to hammer the point home: as we all know, sports teams usually lose when they play very poorly. Expecting a win under those circumstances is where the irony comes in.
Here's where I think we diverge in thought. (Actually at this point, I get what you are saying, but I want to make sure you get what I'm saying). I would agree it's ironic, if I expected them to beat SF while the Vikings were playing poorly. When I say I expected them to win, that expectation is based on their performance in the pre-season, and the personnel moves made in the off-season (on both SF and the Vikings). I agree it would be ironic, if that assessment was made during the game (or if the quality of the opponent was NOT taken into account). Then I'm basically saying the team that beat us by more is the one we should have beaten. That *is* ironic, but I don't think it applies here because we are taking into account all the factors (knowledge of football, the teams, etc.) that need to be absent for the irony to apply.

It's no more ironic that expecting the college team to beat the HS team (the team that beat the college team by more than the pro team) even though the HS team had the greatest margin of victory. I get what you are saying, and I get that it wasn't really meant to be a serious comment, I'm just trying to illustrate I find no incongruity or irony in either example (The Vikings or my hypothetical college basketball team).
I've told people a million times not to exaggerate!
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

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Just Me wrote:Here's where I think we diverge in thought. (Actually at this point, I get what you are saying, but I want to make sure you get what I'm saying). I would agree it's ironic, if I expected them to beat SF while the Vikings were playing poorly. When I say I expected them to win, that expectation is based on their performance in the pre-season, and the personnel moves made in the off-season (on both SF and the Vikings). I agree it would be ironic, if that assessment was made during the game (or if the quality of the opponent was NOT taken into account). Then I'm basically saying the team that beat us by more is the one we should have beaten. That *is* ironic, but I don't think it applies here because we are taking into account all the factors (knowledge of football, the teams, etc.) that need to be absent for the irony to apply.

It's no more ironic that expecting the college team to beat the HS team (the team that beat the college team by more than the pro team) even though the HS team had the greatest margin of victory. I get what you are saying, and I get that it wasn't really meant to be a serious comment, I'm just trying to illustrate I find no incongruity or irony in either example (The Vikings or my hypothetical college basketball team).
Understood. :) Thanks, Dan!
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by CbusVikesFan »

As usual my expectations are greater before the start of the season. I try to remain positive but being a lifelong Vikings fan it is tough to remain that way further into the season we go. Good teams win on the road. Better teams win all their home games and win some on the road.
As positive as I can be, the we shall see point of view is all I can muster right now.
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by DK Sweets »

I am getting sick of the "I'm a lifelong Vikings fan and I'm just used to bad things" mindset. The negative vibes are getting to me, man.
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by frosted »

DK Sweets wrote:I am getting sick of the "I'm a lifelong Vikings fan and I'm just used to bad things" mindset. The negative vibes are getting to me, man.
Now you're gonna get it ..... Football shouldn't be fun! Don't get it twisted, DK.
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by IrishViking »

I am cautiously optimistic. :smilevike:
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

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frosted wrote: Now you're gonna get it ..... Football shouldn't be fun! Don't get it twisted, DK.
It IS fun.

The "I'm a lifelong Vikings fan and I'm just used to bad things" mindset could be held by a lifelong Vikes fan of 10 years or someone who's been a fan for 50 years. :lol:
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

Post by DK Sweets »

Feel free to delete this if you feel like it strays into good fan/bad fan territory. I don't intend it that way, but I understand how it could be misunderstood. I just had to at least try and get this feeling out.

I truly don't understand why somebody would enjoy following a team closely and caring enough to continue posting if they were just waiting for the next bad thing to happen. That can't be fun, and I don't know why somebody would invest so heavily in a recreational activity that they didn't enjoy.

The joy of being a fan, to me, is the optimism. I remember the great wins more than the painful losses. I understand that there has been more pain than joy in recent years, but projecting past failures on the future just seems like a painful and meaningless experience to me. If we somehow pulled an amazing run to the Super Bowl, most of the greatest season of our lives would have been spent complaining. I just don't see how anybody could look back on that joyously.

I think sometimes we try to be TOO objective. We've been burned before and looked like a fool, so it's just easier to predict bad things and be content with being wrong if things go well.

I guess if I were to boil it down into one paragraph, it would go something like this: the Lombardi trophy is the ultimate goal of the team. As fans, that can't be what defines a good season to you. Even the Pittsburgh Steelers (with the most Super Bowl wins in league history) have only had 6 successful seasons if you have such a narrow view of success. I want to enjoy the players we have and hope they succeed, and in the process I want to focus on the great moments more than the disappointing ones.

This is a very complex thought for me to try to express, and I feel like I only scratched the surface with it. If anybody thinks that they feel the same way I do and thinks they could convey it better, feel free to share your perspective.
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Re: Assessing the Vikings at the One Quarter Mark

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DK Sweets wrote:Feel free to delete this if you feel like it strays into good fan/bad fan territory. I don't intend it that way, but I understand how it could be misunderstood. I just had to at least try and get this feeling out.
No problem and you walked the line just fine so there's no need to delete anything.
I truly don't understand why somebody would enjoy following a team closely and caring enough to continue posting if they were just waiting for the next bad thing to happen. That can't be fun, and I don't know why somebody would invest so heavily in a recreational activity that they didn't enjoy.

The joy of being a fan, to me, is the optimism. I remember the great wins more than the painful losses. I understand that there has been more pain than joy in recent years, but projecting past failures on the future just seems like a painful and meaningless experience to me. If we somehow pulled an amazing run to the Super Bowl, most of the greatest season of our lives would have been spent complaining. I just don't see how anybody could look back on that joyously.

I think sometimes we try to be TOO objective. We've been burned before and looked like a fool, so it's just easier to predict bad things and be content with being wrong if things go well.

I guess if I were to boil it down into one paragraph, it would go something like this: the Lombardi trophy is the ultimate goal of the team. As fans, that can't be what defines a good season to you. Even the Pittsburgh Steelers (with the most Super Bowl wins in league history) have only had 6 successful seasons if you have such a narrow view of success. I want to enjoy the players we have and hope they succeed, and in the process I want to focus on the great moments more than the disappointing ones.

This is a very complex thought for me to try to express, and I feel like I only scratched the surface with it. If anybody thinks that they feel the same way I do and thinks they could convey it better, feel free to share your perspective.
I hear you and I understand where you're coming from. Honestly, whether it always comes across that way or not, I try to take an "enjoy the ride" mentality most of the time when it comes to the Vikings. I certainly don't just wait around for the next bad thing to happen and, like you, I don't know why anyone would want to follow a team if that was their attitude. However, I do think there's a difference between just waiting around for those bad moments and growing somewhat accustomed to them (and frustrated by them). They have a cumulative effect and the longer someone is a fan, the more they experience them, the greater that effect. It's impact is inevitably going to vary from person to person but it has an impact.

Defining success purely in terms of Super Bowl wins and being unable to enjoy a season without that end result makes no sense to me. There's a LOT more to enjoy about football than that and even the heartbreak can ultimately be enjoyable in a bittersweet way. The end of the '98 season crushed me but I still relished that season and look back on it fondly because the rush of going 15-1, enjoying that ride and thinking they were going to win it all was awesome.

As a kid, throughout my '20s, I was endlessly optimistic about the Vikings. That continued into my 30s too but somewhere along the way, my view changed. As I became more and more interested in the nuances of the game, being optimistic alone wasn't the joy of being a fan for me but following the team's ups and downs became more enjoyable. Looking at the team objectively is part of the fun for me at this point (not that it's truly possible since our views of something like football are inevitably at least somewhat subjective). I don't pessimistically wait for the next bad thing to happen and I don't optimistically believe the future is always brighter. I follow the team and go along for the ride on which they take me. I think some other fans do likewise. On the surface, that might seem like the "We've been burned before so it's just easier to predict bad things and be content with being wrong if things go well. ..." mentality you referred to above but I assure you, it's quite different. I think just projecting bad things as a defense mechanism is inherently pessimistic, not objective but I'm well past the point where I enjoy being optimistic about the team purely for the sake of it. I follow them religiously, wear the colors, cheer for them to win every time they play but I try not to delude myself about them and I'm frustrated by their lack of success. It wears on me and yet I still get optimistic enough about them to get burned again. It just happened in 2013. Heck, it just happened last month, in the season opener and last week, when they lost a game I predicted they would win in overtime.

This IS a difficult subject to discuss and I've seen it come up again and again over the past decade. I think that's because the Vikings have been such a middle-of-the pack team for the majority of that time, rarely really good and rarely really bad. When a team spends so much time on the cusp of being a winner and on the cusp of being a loser, fans inevitably end up falling loosely into the states-of-mind we're discussing. The more optimistic believe the team is close and becoming a contender is just around the corner. The more pessimistic don't think it's going to happen and others just think the team is stuck in the middle. prolonged mediocrity breeds this kind of discontent in a fan base.

Projecting past failures onto the future may seem pointless but some trends (like the team's record at Soldier Field over the past 10-15 years, for example) are hard to ignore. Having been to almost every one of those Soldier Field games in person, I can tell you that I go into each one well aware of the Vikes problems winning in Chicago and I also go into each one hoping for a win. I retain that hope until the win is either in hand or clearly out of reach. I'm not sure if that's optimism, pessimism, objectivity or all 3. To me, it's just being a fan and for the most part, I think that's what everybody here is doing. We're just all different people, with different experiences, so we inevitably see the Vikes differently, especially when they aren't providing crystal clear indications that they're great or awful. If we were looking at a 4-0 team with several dominant wins I suspect the overall attitude here would be much more unified and much more optimistic. If the team had been blown out in 3 of 4 games and they were 0-4, I suspect even the most optimistic fans would be pretty down on them.

I hope some of that made sense and some of it is helpful. I'm speaking primarily of my own mindset but hopefully, it provides a little insight. Since I'm probably looking like a pessimist to many around here this week, maybe it will be useful.
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