Vikings Message Board.Com

You are right PB. I forgot they had worked something out (well threw some numbers at) Winfield, I thought it was 4.5 mil. If it was 7+ Winfield should have worked something out and retired here.

And Greenway barely budged. But your right, in the end I think the real numbers cam to around $750K. But every it helps and we need him. Plus hes good for tickets, and, IMO, a stand up guy.

Man, I am getting old. I forget so much stuff. 4 football concussions in 3 years wasn't worth it.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:You are right PB. I forgot they had worked something out (well threw some numbers at) Winfield, I thought it was 4.5 mil. If it was 7+ Winfield should have worked something out and retired here.

And Greenway barely budged. But your right, in the end I think the real numbers cam to around $750K. But every it helps and we need him. Plus hes good for tickets, and, IMO, a stand up guy.

Man, I am getting old. I forget so much stuff. 4 football concussions in 3 years wasn't worth it.

What a depressing article. I can quibble about the obsession with tackles as an overrated stat, but the bottom line is that there wasn't a linebacker on the roster last year who excited me. Not one. And you can't compete in the NFL with that kind of team.

Hopefully, this Barr will develop into a star. We'll see. And perhaps one of the other kids who were drafted in 2013 will come into their own. But I don't think there's much of an argument that Greenway's better days are behind him, and the only question now is whether he is mediocre or worse. As has been said by others, if Zimmer can make him excel at this point in his career, he could also probably get my 92 year old mother to do wind sprints.

The sad part is: Greenway led the team in interceptions last year! (Look it up - It's true!)

Just Me wrote:The sad part is: Greenway led the team in interceptions last year! (Look it up - It's true!)

The smear campaign on Greenway will find a way to say that stat doesn't matter either or is not significant.

mondry wrote: The smear campaign on Greenway will find a way to say that stat doesn't matter either or is not significant.

Plus he had 3 sacks.

NextQuestion wrote: When Arif had suggested that he could be a camp cut or CAP cut, the fans freaked out on him.

The reason why he wont is because he's a higher plaid player. If that was going to happen it would have already been done. Of course I don't know if his contract had roster bonuses, but I would bet there was.

Well Zimmer really likes Greenway apparently.

720pete wrote:Well Zimmer really likes Greenway apparently.

There's clearly a disconnect between the way pro coaches and Greenway's peers perceive him and the way amateur or semi-pro analysts like Arif and the folks at PFF perceive him. Ditto for some fans.

Mothman wrote: There's clearly a disconnect between the way pro coaches and Greenway's peers perceive him and the way amateur or semi-pro analysts like Arif and the folks at PFF perceive him. Ditto for some fans.

That sure was a nice way to say they don't know what the hell they're talking about, Jim!

mondry wrote: That sure was a nice way to say they don't know what the hell they're talking about, Jim!

Courtesy counts!

Bad at football?! But he's oh-so-good at helping people!

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId= ... rc=desktop

A great little story, with a funny line at the end.

Mothman wrote:There's clearly a disconnect between the way pro coaches and Greenway's peers perceive him and the way amateur or semi-pro analysts like Arif and the folks at PFF perceive him. Ditto for some fans.

It's sabermetrics. They're a great and innovative form of stats, but they're not perfect just like any other stat. Saying that tackles are a bad stat is tantamount to saying that hits are a bad stat in baseball. You can get a tackle for making an arm tackle on a RB after a 7 yard gain because you're playing back in zone and your assignment is to contain just like you can get a hit on a slow groundball to the shortstop because he was playing back for the double play.

Arif has a point, but I think his argument fails to acknowledge a lot of things. Leslie Frazier's scheme is based largely on containing the play in the 2nd and 3rd levels while the defensive line creates pressure and attacks gaps. Well, our interior line was probably the worst that I've ever seen from '10-'13, and LBs have absolutely no chance against 320 lb guards unless they're like Von Miller or Demarcus Ware. He even showed a clip that showed just how crappy our defensive line is to illustrate some kind of point that I assume was that Greenway can't even knock a 300+ lb man on his ####. I didn't really read the whole thing, just kind of skimmed through the important parts to get the jist of it, but yeah that's pretty ridiculous if he thought that was criteria for Greenway being a bad LB.

Considering all of this, coupled with a qualified opinion saying that Greenway is awesome, I'm inclined to believe that Chad Greenway is explained more by a lack of help than he is simply dismissed as being "bad" because PFF stats say he is. Good argument, I like how Arif sells it, but I'm not buying. Not even at a 95% discount.

None of the LB really had any juice during the Frasier era. The 2009/2010 mix was better than the 2012-2013 groups, but in general the scheme did not seem to depend on this group for a great deal of playmaking, at least not in comparison to the DL. The stats cited do not seem to account for performance within a defined scheme/coaching regime so in so far as that is concerned, one could criticize the data. It also worth noting that outside of pass rushing LB, NFL teams in general do not seem to value this position as high as the DL or CB. Spielman has said several times that they feel they can fill these spots with later round picks. (This is obviously debatable, but it does show a certain view on the position.)

To me this really just begs the question of what will the demands be of the position group as a whole as well as the individual positions under the Zimmer system? Will a guy who put up mediocre numbers (whether by design or not) under Frasier put up more competitive numbers under Zimmer?
In short: I do not know.

More to the point, not only do I not know, I do not know enough to guess either. So it is hard to say a guy is bad at football in that context. My view of it is that we haven’t seen much playmaking out of this group, although what we have seen has come from Greenway. Worth noting, none of last year’s roster, aside from Bishop (who is not on the roster now) was very successful in the blitz, so that could be a driver.

If one looks at the FA moves this offseason it would seem that aside from Barr, the majority of playmaking is probably expected to come from the DL anyways, that is where we’ve seen the most significant investment in additional talent. Regardless, unless Zimmer proves that Frasier was as bad at putting talent in place to win as many of us feel he was, (this seems unlikely, but I plan to watch for it this year as I share that opinion) the sober view is that outside of coaching miracles this group will improve as a whole, but probably still needs some more talent to become elite. I think we’ll be better, but a top 5 defense would be a genuine surprise to me. (one I’d love to see.)

mansquatch wrote:If one looks at the FA moves this offseason it would seem that aside from Barr, the majority of playmaking is probably expected to come from the DL anyways, that is where we’ve seen the most significant investment in additional talent. Regardless, unless Zimmer proves that Frasier was as bad at putting talent in place to win as many of us feel he was, (this seems unlikely, but I plan to watch for it this year as I share that opinion) the sober view is that outside of coaching miracles this group will improve as a whole, but probably still needs some more talent to become elite. I think we’ll be better, but a top 5 defense would be a genuine surprise to me. (one I’d love to see.)

It's going to be pretty hard to compare last year's defense to this year's purely in terms of coaching and utilizing talent. There's been a lot of personnel change, last year's rookies are now more experienced, etc.

Regarding the focus on the DL: I think Zimmer realizes winning begins at the line of scrimmage. If you can't win there, you're never going to win consistently. Offseason moves along the DL were essential with Allen departing and with the decision not to re-sign Kevin Williams but in the end, I think the real driving force was that a defense has to be able to stop the run and pressure the QB to be successful.