King James wrote:Yeah I thought the same thing, if Ponder by some miracle wins the starting job again, I won't question their decision. This time he has a coach who can teach him, who knows if Norv Turner can flip the switch in Ponder's head or not but it's worth a shot while he's still here. If anything Ponder deserves to be in a situation like this where he can get taught the right way, rather just getting thrown to the wolves like he did.
Think of Aaron Rodgers. Yes he sat behind Brett Favre but Favre isn't a teacher. McCarthy sent Rodgers and all his QBs to QB school for training. Just because you go to the pros doesn't mean you don't hone your skills. Ponder never had any of that.
Hopefully now our new coaches will actually teach him this time how to go through progressions and go through his reads. It can't be taught, some QBs have natural talent in going through their progressions and some have to be taught. Ponder may be one of those guys. Because what I seen these past 3 years, he needs a lot of training. Norv is the right person for him.
That ='s 2 things that we have agreed on
Do not mistake KINDNESS for WEAKNESS!
Best to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt.
He should have a clean slate. This is a new regime, a new year, and if Norv thinks that Ponder is the best QB on the roster for whatever reason, I would expect that that's who he'd use. We don't need to get caught up in last year, or his rookie year, or the handful of games where he was mediocre in 2012, because they honestly don't matter any more than Matt Cassel's stats from 2 years ago with the Chiefs, or from 6 years ago with New England.
I predict Matt Cassel will win the job, unless a rookie like JFB/TBW/Bortles comes in and steals the job during training camp. Ponder just doesn't seem like he can put it together as a pro, but I think Norv Turner likes him a little bit, and believes that he has a chance at winning the job this year or at least maybe platooning with Cassel. I don't disagree with him, because Ponder is good at certain things (other than interceptions), whether we like to admit it or not. He can move around and make plays when there isn't one down the field, he has a decent arm, and when he's on a roll sometimes he looks downright unstoppable. I could still see him being what we thought he was going to be, but he isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt like he did the last 2 years.
Overall I would say Ponder is probably on very thin ice right now. He would have to make a complete turn around to probably even stay on this team. But I wouldn't rule him out yet and say it's over. Anything can happen.
King James wrote:Overall I would say Ponder is probably on very thin ice right now. He would have to make a complete turn around to probably even stay on this team. But I wouldn't rule him out yet and say it's over. Anything can happen.
I agree. It's virtually impossible for a player to shake his recent past poor performance. You can be certain that Zimmer and Turner have watched a lot of tape from the Vikings' 2013 season. That slate isn't completely clean, no matter how much someone may want it to be. If Ponder actually earns the starting QB job, I think he'll be on a very short leash.
IMO, Ponder's biggest problem is he thinks too much. That and I think Frasier coached the heck out of "don't make mistakes" vs. making big plays. In a lot of ways Ponder's decision making (most of the time) was a mirror image of Frasier's defensive philosophies. I'm speculating of course.
I think if a coach could get ponder to play a little bit more loose without committing a ton of mistakes then he might turn into something.
Again, current tape on the guy is what it is, so no expectations. There is a reason there are only so many great QBs and the rest are the rest.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
Slick Rick wrote:He should have a clean slate. This is a new regime, a new year, and if Norv thinks that Ponder is the best QB on the roster for whatever reason, I would expect that that's who he'd use. We don't need to get caught up in last year, or his rookie year, or the handful of games where he was mediocre in 2012, because they honestly don't matter any more than Matt Cassel's stats from 2 years ago with the Chiefs, or from 6 years ago with New England.
I predict Matt Cassel will win the job, unless a rookie like JFB/TBW/Bortles comes in and steals the job during training camp. Ponder just doesn't seem like he can put it together as a pro, but I think Norv Turner likes him a little bit, and believes that he has a chance at winning the job this year or at least maybe platooning with Cassel. I don't disagree with him, because Ponder is good at certain things (other than interceptions), whether we like to admit it or not. He can move around and make plays when there isn't one down the field, he has a decent arm, and when he's on a roll sometimes he looks downright unstoppable. I could still see him being what we thought he was going to be, but he isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt like he did the last 2 years.
I have heard about his playmaking ability, but quite frankly haven't seen it. Sure he has made some good plays but certainly not any more than any other qb and less than most. I have never seen him "unstoppable". He has played a few good games and it was those games that gave me hope that he finally got it. But hen he would turn around and play poorly right after. I do agree that he has a decent arm but he never learned to really trust it.
Delaqure wrote:
I have heard about his playmaking ability, but quite frankly haven't seen it. Sure he has made some good plays but certainly not any more than any other qb and less than most. I have never seen him "unstoppable". He has played a few good games and it was those games that gave me hope that he finally got it. But hen he would turn around and play poorly right after. I do agree that he has a decent arm but he never learned to really trust it.
Who said anything close to Ponder being "unstoppable"? Surely there is NO one that ever described Cassell as unstopable is there. Even Peyton and Brady are very stoppable.
Do not mistake KINDNESS for WEAKNESS!
Best to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Eli wrote:
I agree. It's virtually impossible for a player to shake his recent past poor performance. You can be certain that Zimmer and Turner have watched a lot of tape from the Vikings' 2013 season. That slate isn't completely clean, no matter how much someone may want it to be. If Ponder actually earns the starting QB job, I think he'll be on a very short leash.
The safest bet for the coaches is to get the highest QB on their board which I think they will do. With the draft just a week away, and like you said, the coaches have seen plenty of game tape. It would be very risky to put all hope in Ponder, or even Cassel, thinking that Norv can turn them around. This is why I kinda want them to go 2nd or 3rd round on a QB, so Ponder and Cassel both have a legitimate shot to compete for the starting job. Unless the coaches are absolutely sure that Cassel and Ponder are not the QBs for us, then I think we should go QB in the first.
As bad as I want Ponder to stay, he has really dug himself into a deep hole. A hole that most QBs can't get out of unless they join another team. But even then a lot of them still struggle with a new team. Like Matt Flynn, Josh Freeman, and etc.
Holmgren believes that you "pick one" guy and you go with that guy. And regardless of what's said about that particular quarterback, you stick with him.
“Somebody in that group can play, I feel sure of that,” Holmgren said of the 2014 quarterbacks class. “You list them, you evaluate them, you discuss them as a scouting and coaching group, and you pick one. Now—and this is very, very important—once he's with you, you never, ever let anyone believe he's not the right guy, not the quarterback of the future.
"In the building, obviously, that's a given. But in public too. Every time you talk about him, he's your guy."
It's a fascinating story and worthwhile advice. If you spend a first-round pick on a quarterback this season, there's no reason to question that player. At all. Ever. Give him the starting job and see what he can do.
Texas Vike wrote:
Yeah, I don't really agree with it, this thread just sort of made me think of it though. I guess if they mean, keep your QB confident that he is the guy, until you decide he isn't, then I can sort of agree with that. If it means ride the guy into the ground, no matter how bad he is playing, and continue to say he is your guy. Then I definitely don't agree. It seems to me that is what they did with TJack and Ponder. Bought them both for more than they were worth, and instead of realizing the mistake had been made, and find a way to go a different direction, they stayed course, and got us much further away than we would have needed to be.
Purple bruise wrote:
Who said anything close to Ponder being "unstoppable"? Surely there is NO one that ever described Cassell as unstopable is there. Even Peyton and Brady are very stoppable.
I was referring to Slick Ricks comment on Ponder looking downright unstoppable at times and I was disagreeing with him. To be fair I didn't think he was calling Ponder an unstoppable qb.
Thanks for that link. I agree with what Holmgren is saying. If a team believes in a player's ability and potential enough to spend a high draft pick on him, it makes sense to be patient, let that player fight through the inevitable growing pains and to back him 100%. QB is the most difficult position in football, one of the most difficult in sports, and it can take time for a player at that position to develop.
There's obviously a point at which a coach has to decide if continually diminishing returns from his chosen QB mean he has to pull the plug but impatience and a willingness to pull that plug too fast just means never settling the position.
As I've said before, I think where a lot of teams (including the Vikings) make a mistake is in putting all of their eggs in one basket. As Holmgren said, a team should give their chosen starter their complete support, both publicly and in the locker room. However, they should always be developing a "plan B" player behind him who possesses legitimate starting potential. If your chosen starter falters, you want a young Brunell or Hasselbeck (or Brady!) waiting in the wings, not Joe Webb, MBT, Rosenfels, Cassel, etc. because none of the latter have a realistic chance to become long term solutions at the position.
