Vikings Message Board.Com

dead_poet wrote: I don't know how you can absolve Webb for this: http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/artic ... a52733600d

Ponder needed to get that ball out quicker, but Webb got beat pure and simple. It's also a questionable call from Musgrave as that's clearly a slower-developing play. Ponder didn't have much room to move up.

Did you read my post? I said except for his FIRST play. Why would Musgrave call that play, in the endzone, for Webbs first play? Other then that he looked ok. That's my point. I don't care what he didn't before any more then I do for Cassels bad games in KC. Webb played as good as Loadfat did that game. How does it feel getting owned? Its about the only thing you enjoy trying to do to others here. I was simply making a point Rickie overpaid for a run blocker, when we don't really need one with a good FB and an excellent RB.

dead_poet wrote: I don't know how you can absolve Webb for this: http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/artic ... a52733600d

Ponder needed to get that ball out quicker, but Webb got beat pure and simple. It's also a questionable call from Musgrave as that's clearly a slower-developing play. Ponder didn't have much room to move up.

Ponder had room, but no time and no sense of the outside rusher. The drop was deep and the pocket didn't collapse in front of him. The play was bound to develop more slowly than any play run from the 5 yard line has a right to. Webb drove his man deep, as is often done with speed rushers. It wasn't great, but it's not all on him. Kalil also got beaten badly on the play by RDE Wynn, who absolutely crushed Ponder a split second later.

I watched the remainder of the second half against the Cowboys tonight and I defy you to show me a single play, run or pass, where Webb's performance wasn't close to perfect.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:Did you read my post? I said except for his FIRST play.

I was responding directly to Eli's post when he said: "A major part of that play was Ponder's usual cluelessness in the pocket, never feeling the deep pressure or moving up in the pocket, then trying to sidearm some kind of a pass out of the end zone."

Why would Musgrave call that play, in the endzone, for Webbs first play?

I don't know. It was a questionable call. Maybe he was trying to catch the Cowboys off guard. Maybe he was trying to re-create the Gus Frerotte to Berrian bomb. Obviously it didn't work out so well.

Other then that he looked ok. That's my point. I don't care what he didn't before any more then I do for Cassels bad games in KC.

Except when you're evaluating a player, you must take previous performances into account. And Webb has been historically one of the worst tackles in the league. Just because he's on the Vikings doesn't mean he's going to suddenly be Jonathan Ogden. He's going to be the same guy in a different uniform.

Webb played as good as Loadfat did that game.

Debatable. Loadholt didn't surrender a sack/fumble/TD. That was a pretty big play.

How does it feel getting owned?

lol...Is that what happened? Felt great then!

Its about the only thing you enjoy trying to do to others here.

Easy, Tiger. That's the the purpose of my posts.

I was simply making a point Rickie overpaid for a run blocker, when we don't really need one with a good FB and an excellent RB.

An interesting concept. I'm guessing every GM in the NFL would probably disagree with that. By your logic we could put in a cheerleader at RT and it wouldn't matter because we have AD and Felton. Frankly, I'm for putting the best players on the field. Something tells me Loadholt had something to do with AD's historic 2012. He's one of the best run blockers in the league (I fail to see why this is seen as a negative) and vastly superior to Webb in that department while his pass-protection is at least on par (better in my eyes) than Webb. It appears you have the same angst with Loadholt as you do with Ponder where you think that [insert player here] is better than Loadholt for the simple fact that he's not Loadholt. It's clouding your judgement.

It's interesting that Webb's career has steadily gone downhill to where he was demoted to backup and eventually waived while Loadholt was signed to a contract extension as a starter. Sure, you could "explain" that away and say that "Rickie doesn't know what he's doing", but I guarantee Loadholt would've been signed as a starter somewhere. In fact, it was reported the Bears (you know, the guys that had just cut Webb) were offering MORE than the Vikings. You'd probably have to question Phil Emery's evaluation/decision-making skills then, I suppose. I think it also says something that AD went to bat for Loadholt, too. To me that signifies he values what Loadholt brings to the offense.

You think Webb is > Loadholt. I have a hard time with that perspective. We can agree to disagree.

Eli wrote:Ponder had room, but no time and no sense of the outside rusher.

He had three guys closing on him. 92 and 99 on the outside (beating Webb) and 97 up the middle. Ponder finishes his drop at 0:03 in the video. By that time 92 and 99 are both free. Ponder barely has a half second before 99 has his arm. Ponder "having no sense of the outside rusher" does not absolve Webb for allowing his man to get around him so quickly/easily.

The drop was deep and the pocket didn't collapse in front of him.

Well, 97 was right there in front of him. There was a lot of heat on the play.

Webb drove his man deep, as is often done with speed rushers. It wasn't great, but it's not all on him.

Agreed. That play was seemingly doomed from the start.

I watched the remainder of the second half against the Cowboys tonight and I defy you to show me a single play, run or pass, where Webb's performance wasn't close to perfect.

That's a bold statement. I'd have to go back and watch the tape.

dead_poet wrote: He had three guys closing on him. 92 and 99 on the outside (beating Webb) and 97 up the middle. Ponder finishes his drop at 0:03 in the video. By that time 92 and 99 are both free. Ponder barely has a half second before 99 has his arm. Ponder "having no sense of the outside rusher" does not absolve Webb for allowing his man to get around him so quickly/easily.

Exactly and with Kalil allowing pressure from the other side and 97 pushing Johnson up the middle, Ponder had little room to work and even less time. Setting aside the virtues or flaws of the play call itself, the primary problem on that play was poor pass blocking and Webb was the biggest, but not the only, culprit. It's generous to say he pushed his man deep. He's basically beaten in the first second of the play. Selvie practically goes right by him.

That's a bold statement. I'd have to go back and watch the tape.

"Close to perfect" is a bit much but Webb basically played fine for the remainder of the half. There's one running play where he doesn't sustain his block long enough and Peterson gets tackled for little or no gain by Webb's man but that's nitpicking.

I don't think anybody is suggesting Webb is completely incompetent. He's capable of playing a good half or a good game but over the course of multiple games, or a season, it's been evident that he's a liability, especially on plays that don't develop quickly where he needs to sustain his blocks.

Again my point is Rick overpaid for a tackle that isn't that good. He isn't a mauler in run blocking. He is just so huge, that is does what he is supposed to, and doesn't get stuffed, AD and Felton make him look better then he is. Webb was a cast off from the Bears that most Viking fans didn't want to see have much action here. But other then the stupid playing calling in the endzone, I don't think many people even knew Loadfat was on the sidelines. I don't think he ever was a good tackle. Any Olineman can run block, they have to be able to pass protect to get the type of money he is making. But not if you play on the Vikings.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:Again my point is Rick overpaid for a tackle that isn't that good. He isn't a mauler in run blocking. He is just so huge, that is does what he is supposed to, and doesn't get stuffed, AD and Felton make him look better then he is. Webb was a cast off from the Bears that most Viking fans didn't want to see have much action here. But other then the stupid playing calling in the endzone, I don't think many people even knew Loadfat was on the sidelines. I don't think he ever was a good tackle. Any Olineman can run block, they have to be able to pass protect to get the type of money he is making. But not if you play on the Vikings.

You're kidding yourself if you think "any o-lineman can run block"... at least if you mean they can run block well. Loadholt is one of the better run-blocking right tackles in the league. He frustrates the heck out of me in pass protection but Webb is prone to the same breakdowns in protection that plague Loadholt and over the years, he's had them more often. He's been in the league quite a while now so I see no reason to expect that to change.

As for Spielman over-paying Loadholt: the $7M the Vikes guaranteed Loadholt isn't unusual for a starting right tackle in his prime. There are 7 other RTs in the league with as much or more guaranteed money in their contracts and that number is likely to grow. Meanwhile, the Vikings have a reasonably good, if sometimes frustrating, starter providing stability at the position while they try to plug the many holes they have elsewhere.

At least Spielman didn't give Loadholt a guaranteed $15.5M like the Colts gave Gosder cherilus!

The Vikings had to re-sign Loadholt last year. They could certainly do (much) worse, and they had no other options. Is he overpaid? Let's just say that sometimes a player is in the right place at the right time.

He's a 1 dimensional lineman. And hes slower then McKinney was for being soooooo overweight we decided to just cut him.

The jury is still out, at least for me, on Kalil. One good year, one, maybe, average year.

I don't think our Oline is that good. I think they are average run blockers, our FB is a PB FB, our RB is a HoF RB. I doubt any of our linemen ever get mentioned, in a positive way, for pass protection.

Im just not on this Rickie bandwagon so many of you are on. Lol, just look at our QB situation. Could it possibly be any worse?

PurpleKoolaid wrote:He's a 1 dimensional lineman. And hes slower then McKinney was for being soooooo overweight we decided to just cut him.

The jury is still out, at least for me, on Kalil. One good year, one, maybe, average year.

I don't think our Oline is that good. I think they are average run blockers, our FB is a PB FB, our RB is a HoF RB. I doubt any of our linemen ever get mentioned, in a positive way, for pass protection.

I don't think the o-line is that good either. It definitely needs to improve if the Vikings are going to become a championship team but I don't think starting Webb is the way to achieve improvement.

Im just not on this Rickie bandwagon so many of you are on. Lol, just look at our QB situation. Could it possibly be any worse?

I don't think that many people are on a "Rickie bandwagon". He's done some good things but the jury is still out on him as a GM. I know I'm not sold on him. I think what he does over the next two seasons will pretty much determine whether he keeps the position or ends up being replaced. I'm not saying he may be replaced in two years (although anything is possible) but rather that the franchise is at a pretty key moment right now and the choices he makes are going to have a huge impact on what sort of team the Vikes become over the next 4 or 5 years.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:He's a 1 dimensional lineman.

No, he actually does both phases. He just is better at run blocking. There are far worse starting right tackles in the league, for example, Webb.

And hes slower then McKinney was for being soooooo overweight we decided to just cut him.

For God's sake. Scroll back and read the reasons we got rid of McKinnie.

I don't think our Oline is that good. I think they are average run blockers, our FB is a PB FB, our RB is a HoF RB.

Matt Kalil is a Pro Bowler. John Sullivan was a 2012 All-Pro and has been in the top-5 in his position for the last few seasons and was PFF #1 ranked center in 2012. He should've gone to the 2012 Pro Bowl over Jeff Saturday. I'm guessing the microfracture surgery he underwent last year contributed to his slight down year. His play progressed as the season went along. Fusco has promise and has shown steady growth.

I doubt any of our linemen ever get mentioned, in a positive way, for pass protection.

See below:

We'll start with the folks from Football Outsiders, who are looking at the tackles that have done the best job this season of protecting the quarterback. In 721 snaps this season, Kalil has allowed just two sacks of quarterback Christian Ponder. The Vikings have allowed 27 sacks through 11 games this season after allowing 50 sacks in 16 games last season, and Kalil's pass blocking skills have been a big part of that.

Taking it one step further, the guys at Pro Football Focus have a stat called "Pass Blocking Efficiency," which shows Kalil as the 8th-most efficient pass blocking tackle in the NFL. The PFF stat takes not just sacks into account, but also hurries and hits. Kalil comes out with a Pass Blocking Efficiency score of 96.7 (on a 1-100 scale, I assume). In 411 pass-blocking snaps, Kalil has allowed just 18 combined sacks, hits, and pressures (by PFF's count. . .the number is probably slightly higher than that because PBE apparently takes just 3/4 of hits and hurries rather than the full number).

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2012/11/30 ... his-season

Im just not on this Rickie bandwagon so many of you are on. Lol, just look at our QB situation. Could it possibly be any worse?

I'm not on a bandwagon. He has a lot to prove in my eyes, but he's done some positive things when finally was given full roster control and I feel deserves another year or two to see how his vision comes together.

Rodger Goodell has made about 100 million dollars in the last three years ... so comparitvely, no, Loadholt is certainly not over paid.

Loadholt helped lead the way for the second most single season rushing yards in a contract year ... didn't he?

To me I can give Matt Kalil LT a little bit of a pass

We switched quarter backs way too much which has to affect the line

Charlie Johnson is a terrible LG IMO so Matt would have little support from him.

I have never been a Loadholt fan but i think our improved coaching staff will make him better
and not allow him to take plays off like Frasier and company did at times

PFF's Top-10 pass-blocking rankings from 2013:

If the Vikes had a top 10 pass-blocking line last year than heaven help the poor QBs playing behind lines that didn't make that list!