Vikings Message Board.Com

PurpleKoolaid wrote: He will be next week. No way in the world the coaches miss how ineffective Mitchel was. I know I am one of the few but I want Bishop as our mike, for now at last. Until Mauti is ready.

I don't think you are in the minority in that opinion. I would like to see if the grass is greener, myself. Or maybe that should be purple-er.

Isnt Audie Cole ahead of Mauti, so wouldnt they go to Cole instead?

justinkendle wrote:Isnt Audie Cole ahead of Mauti, so wouldnt they go to Cole instead?

Yup. Mauti wasn't even active for today's game.

JellyBean2144 wrote:I take a different view of this game, it was just one game. It is the first game of the season and generally u are rusty. I will worry when it is the 6the game of the year. Right now iI ain't worried. The defense will lock teams down. The offense will get it together. Go, Vikings

No the Lions were rusty, and they kicked our ####. We were at a much worse stage of corrosion.

It's too bad more of the preseason wasn't given to the starters. They never looked good or in sync the entire preseason, but it was business as usual like we were the defending champs. Strange how it didn't all suddenly come together vs the Lions.

PurpleKoolaid wrote: He will be next week. No way in the world the coaches miss how ineffective Mitchel was. I know I am one of the few but I want Bishop as our mike, for now at last. Until Mauti is ready.

Mitchel shouldn't have been in there.

I know it is a cliche that "pre-season doesn't count," but it should count. The starting unit should be composed of (a) the team's stalwarts and (b) the guys who play the best during the pre-season at the positions where there is no stalwart. Bishop outplayed Mitchell. And obviously, this is not a position where there is a stalwart.

I'm not sure Frazier gets it. Nice guy but ...

S197 wrote: Yup. Mauti wasn't even active for today's game.

I doubt Cole or Mauti will be seeing the field anytime soon. Surprisingly Henderson, despite the piss poor play from our LB core, he racked up the most tackles (11) and got an INT. (which I know was off a deflected pass) but still coaches are going to praise him for being in the right place. Greenway finished with 8 total tackles but the true disappointment was Marvin Mitchell I think is no surprise. He did absolutely nothing against Detroit. Why Frazier thought this guy was starter material is beyond me. The only change I need to see is at the Will LB.

I don't think Henderson is the answer either but I think he is ok for now.

JEC334 wrote: I doubt Cole or Mauti will be seeing the field anytime soon. Surprisingly Henderson, despite the piss poor play from our LB core, he racked up the most tackles (11) and got an INT. (which I know was off a deflected pass) but still coaches are going to praise him for being in the right place. Greenway finished with 8 total tackles but the true disappointment was Marvin Mitchell I think is no surprise. He did absolutely nothing against Detroit. Why Frazier thought this guy was starter material is beyond me. The only change I need to see is at the Will LB.

I don't think Henderson is the answer either but I think he is ok for now.

Frazier runs the team like a bureaucratic manager. There seems to be no sense of urgency. He has his guys, he puts them out there, and he patiently let's them do their thing. The good news is that there is no panic and constant disruption of their prospects for gradual improvement. The bad news is that it doesn't light a fire under them to play at their very best, and doesn't make them accountable when they don't excel. Mitchell was bad enough that I think he will be benched. But he should have never started game 1 to begin with. And we should not have come into these past two seasons without competition at QB (no, I don't take Mr. Cassell seriously -- the fact that he might be competitive with Ponder is hardly much of a compliment).

What I'll be watching for is whether we're getting the best performance out of our DL. Those guys have to positively dominate if we are going to be 9-7 or better. They ought to be the strength of our D, but I wasn't very impressed with them in game 1. If they don't excel, this season won't just be long, it will be excruciating. But I don't see why they can't pick it up. There is serious talent in that unit.

I think the most troubling thing about the loss was the way we lost. If Detroit had played out of their minds and we had lost by that score, I'd feel better about it (the loss). I could attribute the loss to a good team, and we needed to execute better to be a good team. This was not the case. Detroit might be a good team, but they played like crap yesterday, shooting themselves in the foot multiple times at critical times/areas on the field. Yet they still dominated the Vikings in nearly every meaningful offensive statistical category at halftime, despite our 1 point lead. Our luck ran out in the second half and they were able to edge ahead of us and then they never looked back.

To sum up: If we had lost to a good team, I'd feel better about our chances to correct some of our flaws and be competitive with other teams. We lost to a bad team (at least in terms of their execution at critical times. The 1st three red zone incursions resulted in 0-3-3 points respectively). We were just worse.

It is the first game of the season, so I doubt this is an accurate impression on my part, but it doesn't give me much optimism for us pulling out a win on the road against the Bears...

DanAS wrote:As for the special teams, I keep shaking my head about this punter. He looked like you know what throughout the preseason. I was all for drafting Kluwe's replacement, but I cannot understand why we didn't have a competition at that position. Kluwe is way better than this guy.

I call SILLY on this one.
Disparage Ponder and Musgrave all day long - they have (IMO) a proven poor (I had other words in mind there) track record and deserve the beating. Frankly IMO they both suck beyond a reasonable doubt.
But dumping on Locke after one career game? Absolute best case that is totally unreasonable.

DanAS wrote:Frazier runs the team like a bureaucratic manager. There seems to be no sense of urgency. He has his guys, he puts them out there, and he patiently let's them do their thing. The good news is that there is no panic and constant disruption of their prospects for gradual improvement. The bad news is that it doesn't light a fire under them to play at their very best, and doesn't make them accountable when they don't excel. Mitchell was bad enough that I think he will be benched. But he should have never started game 1 to begin with. And we should not have come into these past two seasons without competition at QB (no, I don't take Mr. Cassell seriously -- the fact that he might be competitive with Ponder is hardly much of a compliment).

The lack of competition at QB is more of a Spielman issue than a Frazier issue but I disagree with the idea that Frazier's style doesn't motivate his players and it seems to me that they're held as accountable as players on other teams. Frazier's demeanor may not be fiery and demonstrative but his team didn't look like they lacked motivation as they were making a run for the postseason last year. They improved their W/L record by 7 games. I'm not sure that would even be possible for a team with a coach that didn't motivate his players to give their best effort.

What would indicate a greater sense of urgency to you?

Mothman wrote:
The lack of competition at QB is more of a Spielman issue than a Frazier issue but I disagree with the idea that Frazier's style doesn't motivate his players and it seems to me that they're held as accountable as players on other teams. Frazier's demeanor may not be fiery and demonstrative but his team didn't look like they lacked motivation as they were making a run for the postseason last year. They improved their W/L record by 7 games. I'm not sure that would even be possible for a team with a coach that didn't motivate his players to give their best effort.

What would indicate a greater sense of urgency to you?

I agree that Spielman gets the lion's share of responsibility for Ponder. But Frazier could have a role if he wanted one; I'm sure in my town that if Shanahan wanted a role, he could finagle one.

As for the motivation issue, they looked like they haven't showed up to play this year -- from the pre-season through yesterday. That punter was handed the job without competition from Kluwe, Mitchell was handed the job against any rationality, and the OL has been sleepwalking.

Last year was a charmed life. Peterson was doing transcendent things. The team was remarkably healthy compared to the NFL norm. That stuff will motivate anyone. Peterson alone would have been sufficient. He was chasing history, and this is right after an ACL tear. Who wouldn't want to respond to that?

Frazier is likeable. His players respect him as a person. That goes a long way. But it is not enough unless you have superb on the field leadership and no major holes. I only wish that was our situation.

Anyway, Jim, I hope I'm wrong about this, but I've been watching and I haven't been liking the trends.

DanAS wrote:I agree that Spielman gets the lion's share of responsibility for Ponder. But Frazier could have a role if he wanted one; I'm sure in my town that if Shanahan wanted a role, he could finagle one.

From what I understand, Frazier does have a role in personnel decisions but Spielman gets to make the final call. They seem to be on the same page about a lot of things so they may agree on the QB personnel. My point was just that Spielman has the authority to make the final call so in the end, regardless of how Frazier feels about it, the fact that the Vikings choices at QB are Ponder, Cassel and MBT is Spielman's responsibility. Personally, I think they should have a better young prospect than MBT on the roster behind Ponder.

As for the motivation issue, they looked like they haven't showed up to play this year -- from the pre-season through yesterday. That punter was handed the job without competition from Kluwe, Mitchell was handed the job against any rationality, and the OL has been sleepwalking.

The punter will probably be just fine and I'm not sure what you expect Frazier to do to motivate his OL (or if motivation is even the problem). I have no answers regarding Mitchell. He obviously showed them something they liked in August.

Anyway, Jim, I hope I'm wrong about this, but I've been watching and I haven't been liking the trends.

They're not good trends but I'm not sure they indicate an issue with the head coach.

Mothman wrote:Personally, I think they should have a better young prospect than MBT on the roster behind Ponder.

You're not alone. I've spent the last six months or so stewing on the fact that we could've had Russell Wilson instead of Josh Robinson. I was actually thinking we'd pick him up in the third round due to what I perceived to be a strong value pick, though for some reason his height made a lot of teams weary. I know it's stupid to be dwelling on this, but I've never said I was smart.

I have no answers regarding Mitchell. He obviously showed them something they liked in August.

And Mitchell has been in the system for longer and isn't coming off injury. Still, I'd like to see Bishop in there. He has higher upside IMO. Mitchell has always been "a guy" to me.

They're not good trends but I'm not sure they indicate an issue with the head coach.

Ultimately he's responsible (meaning he'd likely get the axe before Spielman) but I'm still more concerned with the QB position (and corners, and linebackers) than I am with Frazier.

dead_poet wrote:You're not alone. I've spent the last six months or so stewing on the fact that we could've had Russell Wilson instead of Josh Robinson. I was actually thinking we'd pick him up in the third round due to what I perceived to be a strong value pick, though for some reason his height made a lot of teams weary. I know it's stupid to be dwelling on this, but I've never said I was smart.

LOL! I think it's apparent without you saying it...

... and I know what you mean about Wilson. He would have been a smart pick as a Plan B to Ponder and he was available at the right time in the draft and at the right time in Ponder's development.

And Mitchell has been in the system for longer and isn't coming off injury. Still, I'd like to see Bishop in there. He has higher upside IMO. Mitchell has always been "a guy" to me.

Yeah, he's a depth/ST player not a starter. I suspect Bishop will be in there soon, hopefully next week.

Ultimately he's responsible (meaning he'd likely get the axe before Spielman) but I'm still more concerned with the QB position (and corners, and linebackers) than I am with Frazier.

I am too and there are clearly still talent gaps on the team. Despite their success last season, the Vikes are still rebuilding. I know that's practically a dirty word to some fans but it's true and it's apparent at a number of positions, nowhere more than LB (expect, of course, at QB).

It's a nerve-wracking time to be a Vikes fan and I really hope Spielman knows what he's doing because in addition to the areas of the team that still need talent and the obvious questions at QB, there's the looming issue of who will be playing along with Floyd on the d-line next year and to be honest, that scares the heck out of me. If Spielman blows that, it could set the team back years.

You can blame Frazier for this and that and look at the poor play of the defense and whatever else. The bottom line is this is a quarteback driven league and the Vikings don't have one.

It's easy to look at the top teams that you know will be the serious Super Bowl contenders and see where the biggest difference is between them and the Vikings. It's under center.

Great quarterback play can make up for a lot of other weaknesses. Their teams would become pretty ordinary if you take away Rogers, Brady, Peyton or Brees.

What was the biggest factor in the one great Viking season we've seen in the last decade? Favre! Having his best season ever!

Cassell is not the long term answer, but he's better than Ponder. I'm ready to make the change now! I've seen enough. It's not just yesterday. We've seen the poor accuracy, poor decision making and awful pocket awareness before. He has moments, but they're all too few and far between. It's time to move on before this season is a total loss.