Vikings Message Board.Com

mondry wrote:Possibly, Injuries usually don't help, that's for sure!

I'm not going to try and argue that they don't need to be better, you always want to be better. I just wonder if they might have been good enough for a playoff win if Ponder was able to play that game at 100%. We just don't know how much better they really need to be, but they did beat that same exact team just a week earlier. *shrug*

They did but they gave up 30+ points in the process.

If the offense becomes more prolific the defense might not have to improve for the team to earn a playoff win. On the other hand, if the defense improves, the offense might not have to take as much of a step forward either. It's all related.

Yeah I remember those games, and the defense I'll give is, when your offense can't move the ball, your D is on the field a lot and wears down.

I know that's a popular explanation and I think poor offensive performance led them to wear down in a game or two but I don't think that explanation is sufficient. You already brought up my response on this subject: the defense can get rest if they get off the field themselves. That also gives the offense more opportunities.

We won it against Washington, their rushing yardage came off of a 1 big play but against Arizona we lost time of possession 35:05 to 24:55, against TB we lost it 37:45 to 22:15, against Seattle we lost it 36:00 to 24:00. Those are gigantic discrepancies, and sure you can argue the defense can get itself off the field too but at some point your defensive line and LB's are getting tired.

Yes, but at some point, that's on them for not getting stops. Defensive performance was a big factor in those discrepancies. Placing responsibility on the offense only goes so far. I'm not dismissing them as a factor but when the "D" is giving up 100+ yards on the ground week after week and the team is dramatically losing TOP, that's an indication of problems on both sides of the ball. Ultimately, the defense is responsible for getting off the field, even if the offense is having a bad game.

The other thing is, look at who those rushers were. Marshawn Lynch #3 in the league, Doug Martin #5. Alfred Morris #2 (of course it was RG3 who broke 100, though ONE 73 yard run helps with that), Howling - well nothing special there I suppose.

They were good rushers but look who played in the Super Bowl and how those two teams ran the ball. That's part of my point: if the Vikes are going to beat the best and win in the postseason, they have to be better defensively, not just at QB. The defense can't afford to allow an 11 minute 4th quarter drive or a 73 yard back-breaking run by RG3 in a playoff game. They can't allow an RB to have a field day against them like Martin did. They're going to face good rushers during a Super Bowl run so they'd better be able to handle them.

Hopefully the offense can do it's part and the defense gets better!

Amen!

Ponder is under more as a Vikings for sure. If he has a bad year, I think even Spielman will start to think of him as a backup. Maybe sometime later Ponder could win back the starting job, but right now, its his to keep, or lose. Plus its a year away from a contract year. That's pressure. He doesn't want to end up as a Cassell. Or maybe even a Vick with just a 1 year.

In the context of the Vikings he has the most pressure. Part of that is simply because he is the QB. However, this is his year to sink or swim IMO. They’ve given him 3 years and they’ve invested heavily into improving the players around him. I think the “ro

I have no idea if he has the most pressure in the NFL. To be honest, I’d argue a guy like Aaron Rogers has more pressure. If he fails, his whole team will fall apart. You have to imagine that a lot of the 49ers have a ton of pressure as well. They are huge favorites to take it all. What about Russell Wilson? He is the cornerstone of a “dream” roster. (FWIW, I think the Seahawks are going to tank)

I for one am cautiously optimistic on Ponder. He hasn’t given us a lot of “wow factor” plays, but he has done little things really well, like ball security. The biggest thing I thought he showed last year was that he could adjust and fix his issues, like the really bad picks he was tossing at the end of bootlegs. He really seemed to bring it all together in the last 4 games of the season. Thus, the question is what it has been since December: Can he do it consistently? IMO there really isn’t much to discuss beyond that until we start seeing him on the field again.

mansquatch wrote:I for one am cautiously optimistic on Ponder. He hasn’t given us a lot of “wow factor” plays, but he has done little things really well, like ball security. The biggest thing I thought he showed last year was that he could adjust and fix his issues, like the really bad picks he was tossing at the end of bootlegs. He really seemed to bring it all together in the last 4 games of the season. Thus, the question is what it has been since December: Can he do it consistently? IMO there really isn’t much to discuss beyond that until we start seeing him on the field again.

You've really struck to the heart of the matter, which is consistency. We know he can perform under late game pressure, come through for the team in big games against quality opponents, hit the deep ball, make clutch throws, etc. We've seen him do all of the above and more. It's the lows that are the concern. If he can perform at the higher levels we've seen from him at times on a much more consistent basis, the Vikes might have their long term QB. He needs to be the player we saw against SF and in the final regular season game against GB, not the one we saw against Seattle and at GB.

This may have been mentioned, I'll go back and read later. Is there anyone with more pressure then the Vikes qb? Each pro player, in any sport, probably wants to always improve over his previous performance. Therefore, Peterson probably wants to improve, but the pressure will be immense to surpass. I'm sure we all are pullin' for him! Ponder's pressure is at minimum a 25 yard pass to completion, regularly.

...wisdom

The Ponder draft pick reminds me a lot of the Jerry Jones "Quincy Carter" Dallas pick. The cat at the top made a stretch selection, and no matter what, by God he is going to prove to everyone he made the right choice! Ponder has another year to show the Vikes made a good choice. All the new hands will be running routes aching to do their part! Is this a Quincy Ponder pick? Three years in, the mirror reflects!

...wisdom through forum opining

indianation65 wrote:The Ponder draft pick reminds me a lot of the Jerry Jones "Quincy Carter" Dallas pick. The cat at the top made a stretch selection, and no matter what, by God he is going to prove to everyone he made the right choice! Ponder has another year to show the Vikes made a good choice. All the new hands will be running routes aching to do their part! Is this a Quincy Ponder pick? Three years in, the mirror reflects!

...wisdom through forum opining

I think they simply needed a QB, drafted the guy they thought was best for them at that point in the draft and they're sticking with him because that's how you develop a QB when there's no proven veteran in front of him on the depth chart. This doesn't seem like a "stick with the player no matter what" situation. Ponder showed development from year one to year two. He was the QB of a winning team that made the playoffs. He had a positive TD/INT ratio and numbers comparable to those of many successful NFL QBs in their second year. He helped them win games. It looks to me like they had a plan and it's showing signs of working, not like they reached and are stubbornly sticking with a lost cause.

Mothman wrote:
I think they simply needed a QB, drafted the guy they thought was best for them at that point in the draft and they're sticking with him because that's how you develop a QB when there's no proven veteran in front of him on the depth chart. This doesn't seem like a "stick with the player no matter what" situation. Ponder showed development from year one to year two. He was the QB of a winning team that made the playoffs. He had a positive TD/INT ratio and numbers comparable to those of many successful NFL QBs in their second year. He helped them win games. It looks to me like they had a plan and it's showing signs of working, not like they reached and are stubbornly sticking with a lost cause.

Whatever Jim, it's been 1.5 years, we should move on for sure, clearly the only reason spielman hasn't is because it's his guy, his pick. We should probably cut Cordarelle Patterson too, he hasn't played a game yet but I've seen all I've needed to see, he will never develop into anything, but he's Spielman's guy so we're probably stuck with him too. Then there's that Adrian Peterson fellow, he still hasn't broken the season rushing record so imo we should try to get a 4th rounder for him but I doubt anyone's dumb enough to do that so we're probably stuck with him too!

mondry wrote:Whatever Jim, it's been 1.5 years, we should move on for sure, clearly the only reason spielman hasn't is because it's his guy, his pick. We should probably cut Cordarelle Patterson too, he hasn't played a game yet but I've seen all I've needed to see, he will never develop into anything, but he's Spielman's guy so we're probably stuck with him too. Then there's that Adrian Peterson fellow, he still hasn't broken the season rushing record so imo we should try to get a 4th rounder for him but I doubt anyone's dumb enough to do that so we're probably stuck with him too!

GBFavreFan wrote: if Ponder was cut after this season, that would mean he played poorly.

Exactly. He'd have to absolutely faceplant to get cut.

All of those players you listed had precedence for some kind of victory or winning history.

Like going 10-6 and getting their team to the playoffs?

Vince Young won games in Tennessee, but more importantly was a highly touted rookie coming out of college, so he has that resume.

So was JaMarcus Russell.

Ponder was not touted entering the NFL draft, has no great college history period and the majority felt he was a reach in the 1st round.

Ponder was touted entering the draft. He was the consensus #3 or #4 QB in that particular draft class. What's debatable, I suppose, is HOW touted he was.

If he would be cut this year, that means he will have failed in 2013, so that would leave his resume from 2011-2012, where he had one winning season (2012)

In, what, 26 career starts (or just over one-and-a-half seasons?). Let's use some perspective. It's not like he only has one winning season to his credit in four complete seasons (to the extent you can put wins/loses on one player).

where the league tended to give credit to Adrian Peterson for those wins and the NFL largely recongized Ponder as the weakness as that report came out about half way through the season how everyone figured out how to counter Ponder.

So he's blamed for the loses but doesn't get any for the wins. Makes sense. The fact remains that Ponder was instrumental in the team making the playoffs. As was the defense. And Peterson. And Kalil. Etc.

Ponder's only success with the Vikings so far, he is not perceived by those outside Minnesota, as the reason for that success.

Debatable.

and doesn't have any "intangibles" that I've ever heard that would interest NFL teams.

Intelligence and character don't count?

While he does get credit from some for having a good run in December I don't think it would be enough for him to find a QB job in the NFL after MN, if he was indeed cut by the Vikings after this season.

I'd disagree. If Tarvaris Jackson keeps getting kicked around in the NFL, Ponder finds work as a QB on somebody's roster.

Might as well put this here. We have nose tackle issues. Guion on notice.

Fred Evans - DL - Vikings

The Vikings will give Fred Evans a chance to unseat Letroy Guion for their starting nose tackle job in training camp.

"The coaches keep telling me that, hey, we need to give Fred a shot to compete for the No. 1 job," said Leslie Frazier. At nose tackle -- a run-stopping position -- 6-foot-4, 305-pound Evans would give Minnesota a stouter option after its run defense became a liability down the stretch last season. Guion is a converted three-technique gap shooter. His base salary is $2.45 million.

Source: ESPN 1500 Twin Cities Jun 2 - 7:35 PM

dead_poet wrote:Might as well put this here. We have nose tackle issues. Guion on notice.

The problem is that Letroy Guion was never cut out to be a nose tackle. Fred Evans plays the role much better, but they're both undersized. The addition of Sharrif Floyd is unlikely to help the problem much.

dead_poet wrote:Might as well put this here. We have nose tackle issues. Guion on notice.

Fred Evans - DL - Vikings

The Vikings will give Fred Evans a chance to unseat Letroy Guion for their starting nose tackle job in training camp.

"The coaches keep telling me that, hey, we need to give Fred a shot to compete for the No. 1 job," said Leslie Frazier. At nose tackle -- a run-stopping position -- 6-foot-4, 305-pound Evans would give Minnesota a stouter option after its run defense became a liability down the stretch last season. Guion is a converted three-technique gap shooter. His base salary is $2.45 million.

Source: ESPN 1500 Twin Cities Jun 2 - 7:35 PM

I assume that if Evans wins the starting job at NT then Guion will still be retained as a backup, even with Floyd now on the roster. Isn't the plan for Floyd to eventually fill K-Will's spot?

I have to agree that the Vikings need to fix whatever went wrong with their run defense late last season.

OTOH, I think the run defense began eroding before last year. So there's been a problem emerging there for a while now.

losperros wrote:I assume that if Evans wins the starting job at NT then Guion will still be retained as a backup, even with Floyd now on the roster.

Yeah, and he'll probably be backup/rotational nose.

Isn't the plan for Floyd to eventually fill K-Will's spot?

I believe so.

I have to agree that the Vikings need to fix whatever went wrong with their run defense late last season.

Pat retiring, K-Will declining and declining MLB play/talent after EJ's injury...tough to overcome without fresh blood and/or someone stepping up. There is a concern for the middle of our defense for sure and our rush defense in general without Winfield. I'd be surprised if the Vikings' rush defense finished as strong as last year (11th in rush yards allowed/game).

OTOH, I think the run defense began eroding before last year. So there's been a problem emerging there for a while now.

There's some new pieces in there and the safety play has improved. CB/NT/MLB are still question marks.

Of course there is a tremendous amount of pressure on Ponder. He's the QB and that's the nature of the beast. Time to sink or swim!!