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agreed ..That really depends on if A) he has adequate time to find them before getting chased/sacked and B) the receivers can get a step on the defenders.
Well said. There have been a lot of comments this offseason about what Ponder should be able to do when there are 8-9 defenders in the box (there are almost never 10 guys on the line) and I sometimes wonder just what people think that means. It certainly doesn't mean receivers are automatically open or even that they're going to get favorable coverage. It can mean one-on-one matchups on the outside but those are only beneficial if a.) the receiver wins the matchup and b.) the play calls for a throw downfield or the QB is free to audible to such a throw. Having 8 or 9 men in the box can also mean it's more difficult to read where a blitz is coming from and more difficult to throw short or intermediate passes.dead_poet wrote: That really depends on if A) he has adequate time to find them before getting chased/sacked and B) the receivers can get a step on the defenders. Failure can happen from all over. It's not all on Ponder. However one can speculate (though never confirm) that if we had Tom Brady behind center last year approximately how many more attempts/completions would he have had vs. Ponder. I know if Ponder is being hurried I don't want him to throw an ill-advised pass across his body or throw a ball to a blanketed receiver. That's when bad things happen.
And as we saw during much of Ponder's "slump," the Vikings were being blitzed aggressively and relentlessly, the line/backs weren't able to effectively pick it up and Ponder was having next to no time to throw, much less go through a read. In some of those situations you could be Joe Montana or Brett Favre or Johnny Unitas and it wouldn't matter.Mothman wrote:There have been a lot of comments this offseason about what Ponder should be able to do when there are 8-9 defenders in the box (there are almost never 10 guys on the line) and I sometimes wonder just what people think that means. It certainly doesn't mean receivers are automatically open or even that they're going to get favorable coverage. It can mean one-on-one matchups on the outside but those are only beneficial if a.) the receiver wins the matchup and b.) the play calls for a throw downfield or the QB is free to audible to such a throw. Having 8 or 9 men in the box can also mean it's more difficult to read where a blitz is coming from and more difficult to throw short or intermediate passes.
Exactly and those blitzes can be an effective weapon against the run or pass.dead_poet wrote: And as we saw during much of Ponder's "slump," the Vikings were being blitzed aggressively and relentlessly, the line/backs weren't able to effectively pick it up and Ponder was having next to no time to throw, much less go through a read. In some of those situations you could be Joe Montana or Brett Favre or Johnny Unitas and it wouldn't matter.
It pains me to say this, but Mr. Purple Bruise is right about this. Might not be so much on this board, but from my experience on other boards--Vikings fans always want anyone and everyone but who they have, especially at QB. I've also witnessed all of these bogus "talents" mentioned as "musts" and "sure things" for the Vikings. Don't forget that John David Booty was the future, too. I've read that as well. LOL. People are fancy. Either way, I like Ponder...and I like the fact that the Vikings organization isn't quite as emotional as many of the fans. I'm glad the guys in charge are giving Ponder a little more time!Purple bruise wrote: My point was that some fans always want to draft, trade etc.. this QB or that QB, which is of course only natural, but to discount Ponder after 1.5 years and ready to spend another 1st round pick on a QB next year seems rediculous. This is his other post, "yup. target tajh noyd, teddy bridgewater or johnny manziel next year. cant imagine two more bad seasons with ponder".
I then was noting that several fans, including him were talking about wanting Simms, Cassell (who they now have), Leftwich, Garcia, Lienhart McNabb etc. to which you replied that no other fans wanted any of the mentioned QBs and I did happen to do a quick search and read where he was championing the possibilty of picking some up those other QBs.
In summation where are those QB's now and how would of they benefited the team? At least Ponder has shown marked improvement over the last fourth of the season and with this latest upgrade of wrs another training camp and better line protection then I see him fullfilling Frazier's and Spielmen expectations. They are seemingly banking, for the most part, their futures on him becoming their QB for a long time.
I apologize to the board for going sooo far off of the topic of AD and his quest for 2500 yds..
Ummm according to league statistics. Obviously it's going to vary from team to team and situation to situation, but we're not talking situational here. The league as a whole in 2012 had exactly a 2 to 1 passing yards to rushing yards ratio (118,418 passing yards to 59,349 rushing yards). The Vikings were nearly 1:1 (2751 passing to 2634 rushing). Coincidentally the Vikings had nearly identical statistics in 2007 (2745 pass to 2634 rushing). Now that's crazy. Hmmm, who was our QB that year? FYI only 7 teams since 2002 had a lower ratio than the 2012 Vikings. And since realignment in 2002 the league ratio has been 1.85:1.Mothman wrote: Considered by whom? It seems like something that's very situation and strategy dependent.
The Ponder apologists can start a support group and these can be it's "talking points" lol. I imagine the list would look something like this ... A) The offensive line didn't give him time B) We have the worst receivers in NFL history C) It's Musgraves play calling D) He had no training camp as a rookie E) He's only had 26 career starts F) We're a run first team G) <insert random future hall of fame QB's name here> had similar numbers at this stage of his career too H) He's only doing what the coaches told him to do I) The defenses blitz too much J) He's a 3 year project. Or if you prefer we can do them in top 10 format a la David Letterman too haha. "Top 10 excuses for Christian Ponders poor play"dead_poet wrote:That really depends on if A) he has adequate time to find them before getting chased/sacked and B) the receivers can get a step on the defenders. Failure can happen from all over. It's not all on Ponder. However one can speculate (though never confirm) that if we had Tom Brady behind center last year approximately how many more attempts/completions would he have had vs. Ponder. I know if Ponder is being hurried I don't want him to throw an ill-advised pass across his body or throw a ball to a blanketed receiver. That's when bad things happen.
I get what you're saying but I don't think the league average tells us what run/pass ratio is considered balanced in football because it's an average of the full range of balance and imbalance. Perhaps this is just a semantic issue but I think there's a difference between what is average and what is "considered balanced". The former is purely a question of statistics, the latter one of personnel, strategy, philosophical approach, etc. It undoubtedly varies from team to team.Reignman wrote:Ummm according to league statistics. Obviously it's going to vary from team to team and situation to situation, but we're not talking situational here. The league as a whole in 2012 had exactly a 2 to 1 passing yards to rushing yards ratio (118,418 passing yards to 59,349 rushing yards). The Vikings were nearly 1:1 (2751 passing to 2634 rushing). Coincidentally the Vikings had nearly identical statistics in 2007 (2745 pass to 2634 rushing). Now that's crazy. Hmmm, who was our QB that year? FYI only 7 teams since 2002 had a lower ratio than the 2012 Vikings. And since realignment in 2002 the league ratio has been 1.85:1.
LOL! ... and his harsh critics can just put their hands over their ears and chant "No excuses, it's all on Ponder! No excuses, it's all on Ponder".The Ponder apologists can start a support group and these can be it's "talking points" lol. I imagine the list would look something like this ... A) The offensive line didn't give him time B) We have the worst receivers in NFL history C) It's Musgraves play calling D) He had no training camp as a rookie E) He's only had 26 career starts F) We're a run first team G) <insert random future hall of fame QB's name here> had similar numbers at this stage of his career too H) He's only doing what the coaches told him to do I) The defenses blitz too much J) He's a 3 year project. Or if you prefer we can do them in top 10 format a la David Letterman too haha. "Top 10 excuses for Christian Ponders poor play"
That's entirely possible. Comparing passing yards to rushing yards is like apples to oranges. It's easier to gain yards through the air than on the ground, unless you're the 2012 Vikings xD. If we were talking about attempts than 1:1 would be considered more balanced I suppose, but even then passing has a 1.2:1 advantage haha. Heck the Vikings are considered a run first team, but they had 515 pass plays to 486 run plays.Mothman wrote:I get what you're saying but I don't think the league average tells us what run/pass ratio is considered balanced in football because it's an average of the full range of balance and imbalance. Perhaps this is just a semantic issue but I think there's a difference between what is average and what is "considered balanced". The former is purely a question of statistics, the latter one of personnel, strategy, philosophical approach, etc. It undoubtedly varies from team to team.
I hope that makes sense. I get the feeling we're talking about different things here.
Haha all in good fun. I'm not saying Ponder is ALWAYS to blame, but sometimes you just gotta go with Occams Razor. I mean you could nitpick every bad play and find someone other than Ponder to blame until he's the first player voted into the hall of fame simply for having the misfortune of always playing with terrible teammates.Mothman wrote: LOL! ... and his harsh critics can just put their hands over their ears and chant "No excuses, it's all on Ponder! No excuses, it's all on Ponder".
The fact that you can even rattle of 10 "legit" issues like that should tell you something. Anyone who actually watched the games in 2012 should easily understand those 10 things likely had at least some impact on a QB's play.Reignman wrote:]The Ponder apologists can start a support group and these can be it's "talking points" lol. I imagine the list would look something like this ... A) The offensive line didn't give him time B) We have the worst receivers in NFL history C) It's Musgraves play calling D) He had no training camp as a rookie E) He's only had 26 career starts F) We're a run first team G) <insert random future hall of fame QB's name here> had similar numbers at this stage of his career too H) He's only doing what the coaches told him to do I) The defenses blitz too much J) He's a 3 year project. Or if you prefer we can do them in top 10 format a la David Letterman too haha. "Top 10 excuses for Christian Ponders poor play"
Yeah it tells me we have a superstar QB being held back by the worst team in NFL history xD. But you DID NOT just use the word "dramatic" to describe Ponders improvement last year. I'm just going to pretend I didn't see that because I fear you're just trying to troll me there.mondry wrote:The fact that you can even rattle of 10 "legit" issues like that should tell you something. Anyone who actually watched the games in 2012 should easily understand those 10 things likely had at least some impact on a QB's play.
2011 - 54.3% completion rate - 13 INT's in 11 games - 30 sacks taken - QBR 70.1Reignman wrote:Yeah it tells me we have a superstar QB being held back by the worst team in NFL history xD. But you DID NOT just use the word "dramatic" to describe Ponders improvement last year. I'm just going to pretend I didn't see that because I fear you're just trying to troll me there.
*HINT* It rhymes with dole and it's super!Super goal!mondry wrote:If the word "dramtic" sends you into screaming troll you will love what I have to say about next year if he makes the same dramatic improvements again!
That's funny because I interpret the "improvement" a little differently. I know, surprise surprise, xD, but let me explain.mondry wrote:2011 - 54.3% completion rate - 13 INT's in 11 games - 30 sacks taken - QBR 70.1
2012 - 62.1% completion rate - 12 INT's in 16 games - 32 sacks taken - QBR 81.2
When it comes to the important things the coaches were looking for he was really good. He turned the ball over less in 16 games than he did in 11 the year before, he took 2 more sacks but over 5 more games. This shows he's being much smarter with the ball, though of course he still made mistakes.
He improved on his completion percentage by 7.7% which is incredibly important for our offense and his QBR went up 11 points. This is on par with quarterbacks like Matt Ryan in his second year.
If the word "dramtic" sends you into screaming troll you will love what I have to say about next year if he makes the same dramatic improvements again!
