Vikings Message Board.Com

losperros wrote: I'd have to go along with Powers regarding the Vikings simply not being a good team yet. They've surprised me by winning as much as they have so far. But quite honestly, they've gone from being a really bad team last season to maybe an average NFL team this year. The good thing is that's still improvement.

Not to sound like a broken record but I still don't see a championship caliber team coming from this present roster.

It's not even close to a championship caliber roster and I don't believe it would be with Brees, Rodgers or any other top QB running it. They'd make it better but championship caliber? There are too many shortcomings.

I'm with Powers regarding yesterday's game. I had hopes the Vikes would pull off an upset but I knew going in that the Bears had a better team and were likely to win at home.

mansquatch wrote:I get that Ponder plays QB and therefore he is the most responsible for the offense’s performance, but I think people are not being serious if they think it is just him. Who is Webb going to throw to? Defenses already do not need to double cover any of our WR with Harvin hurt. It isn’t going to take much to put a LB as a spy on him to neutralize his running abilities. Webb has notoriously been bad in games where a defense has had a week to prepare for him. Why do we suddenly feel that has changed?

I can understand why some believe Ponder isn't gong to be the answer at QB. That's mainly because he hasn't proven yet that he is QB of the future, not to mention there are times when he doesn't seem to be able to rise above his past mistakes. It's weird because some of the things he was good at as a college QB haven't transitioned into his pro game.

That said, if Ponder isn't the answer at QB for the Vikings, then the team doesn't have an answer at QB. Not now, anyway. It's definitely not Joe Webb. Webb is an okay change of pace backup and that's all. He is an outstanding athlete but not a starting quarterback for any team's future. And yes, when defenses have a week to prepare for Webb's limited abilities at the QB position, it's bad news for him and the team.

On another note, I agree with those who say the Vikings need to dump their entire WR corps, aside from Percy Harvin and Jarius Wright. Whether they retain Ponder or go with another QB doesn't matter either. This team needs better receivers.

My take on this is primarily that people are expecting a 4th year or 5th year level of QB play out of Ponder and want to immediately throw him to the wolves when he plays like a 2nd year guy on a team that currently is starting the worst WR talent in the NFL.

An interesting comment was made by the announcers during the TB game with regards to Josh Freeman. They made the comment after he made a long throw to Williams. (IIRMC) They talked about how Freeman was starting to trust his receivers to make plays for him and that last year he wouldn’t have even attempted the throw. Aside from Harvin and Rudolph who on this team can Ponder trust? I watch the games and see that he wants to trust Jerome Simpson, but 81 constantly lets Ponder down.

This isn’t just a young QB thing either. Denver stuggled on offense first half of the season. I like watching them because I think Peyton might be the best overall QB I’ll ever get to watch. The analysts talk during those games how Manning has started to trust some of his WR and now you see the ball coming out before cuts are made because he knows where they will be, etc. That is a huge part of his numbers.

Again, who on this team does Ponder have that he can rely on in that regard? Who can consistently run a crossing route and get open, who can make the play on the jump ball, etc? We don’t have guys who make those plays and we certainly don’t have guys who Ponder can trust every week.

I know guys will cite Rudolph and Harvin as counters to this. I respectfully disagree. Harvin to me is a great playmaker but he isn’t really a #1 guy. He needs somebody to catch some balls so defenses have to give him respect or pay the price elsewhere. Rudolph is the same type of cat. Big catch radius and all of that, but not a downfield guy. Add in AP and you have the 3 biggest weapons on the team all getting the ball 0-5 yards from the LOS. There needs to be someone else out past 10 yards the defense needs to respect in order to keep them from cheating up. They need a big WR target. He doesn’t need to be Megatron either, just reliable. Either that or find a way for Rudolph to be more viable at 7-15 yards. Not sure if that is a protection thing or just not his game. Maybe Musgrave? Who knows. Bottomline is current system results in too many guys too close to the ball.

mansquatch wrote:I’m not an expert, but my take from watching the game was the Ponder wasn’t as terrible as his stats might indicate. Several of his incompletions were cases where he either had no chance due to protection breakdowns, incompletions where he smartly threw the ball away, or drops. (9 drops in total.) There were signs of progress, he ran several bootlegs where he ended up throwing the ball away due to no one being open. 4 weeks ago he was trying to force that pass and getting picked off. To be sure he made bad plays, the pick over the top being the most glaring example. I suspect though that the drops and sacks made up over 75% of his incompletions. To be sure some of that is going to happen every game, but the point is that yesterday it happened way too much for Ponder to overcome.

The protection was bad yesterday. The bears were exploiting our poor guard play via line stunts. There is little Ponder can do when he as a DL in his face in under 3 seconds. That isn’t a blitz read where he can hit the hot route. If he has an outlet he might be able to hit it, but if the play isn’t called as such he is hosed. The Guards need to play better, or the protection scheme needs to change. Only thing they could have done is run more Max Protect and hope one or two of our WR can get open against multiple DB on an extended play. Of course that isn’t likely given that Harvin is hurt.

It is worth noting that the Max Protect thing is exactly what Mike Tice did to us. They ran 2 and 3 guy patterns and kept 7-8 in protection, Marshall was winning the matchups in the secondary which allowed them to keep running that style of offense all day, minimizing the weakness of their OL while taking away our strength, our DL. We really missed Chris Cook on defense today. The key difference is the Bears have Brandon Marshall. We do not have anyone on our team that can do that kind of stuff when running a route.

I get that Ponder plays QB and therefore he is the most responsible for the offense’s performance, but I think people are not being serious if they think it is just him. Who is Webb going to throw to? Defenses already do not need to double cover any of our WR with Harvin hurt. It isn’t going to take much to put a LB as a spy on him to neutralize his running abilities. Webb has notoriously been bad in games where a defense has had a week to prepare for him. Why do we suddenly feel that has changed?

Ponder has made some dumb mistakes this season, but I’m not convinced he is the root of all our woes right now. Having no receiving threat that can consistently give DB’s a headache means we need more guys out running routes to spread out the defense in hopes of somebody getting open. That means fewer guys in protection and defenses have proven that our Guards are vulnerable. Against a defense that is as talented as Chicago’s those weakness are too much. Against the Packers, who have a less overall talented defense, I think our weaknesses will not be as bad, but they will try to exploit them just the same. Regardless, it emphasizes the need for a big receiving target. Ponder isn’t a QB like Rogers who can throw people open. That doesn’t mean he isn’t NFL viable, it just means he isn’t going to succeed with our current WR talent.

One last note on Ponder. Everyone wants him to be like Rogers or Brees, etc. Even the comparison to Luck is made and how they want him to be like that. Rogers didn’t start his first game until his 4th season in the league. He wasn’t great that first year either, but then steadily improved. Brees got let go by SD before starting over in NO and pairing with the likes of Joe Horn and now Colston, plus a coach like Sean Payton. (love him or hate him, the guy is an offensive genius) Luck has Reggie Wayne to throw to, whose talent we Vikings Fans should know all too well after week 2. Russel Wilson has Sidney Rice. The guy in TB has two big WR targets.

Ponder is in his 2nd year and he is throwing to Michael Jenkins and Jerome Simpson. Yes we want him to be great, but looking at these other guys, he deserves more time and better weapons. We have yet to put him in a situation anywhere near what these other guys get to throw to. Patience is needed IMO.

Yeah, the team as a whole simply still isn't good enough on either side of the ball. It really surprises me how bad our guards are and we know loadholt has his struggles. It's really unfortunate because kalil and sullivan have been pretty solid. It's a shame though because realistically we're gonna have to get at least one G AND a big #1 type WR for this offense to gain more consistency. You simply can't run max protect when jenkins is your best option.

On defense they need another LB, DT, and CB and that's before K.will / Winfield retire... It's gonna be a long time before the Vikings reach that upper tier of teams.

mondry wrote:Yeah, the team as a whole simply still isn't good enough on either side of the ball. It really surprises me how bad our guards are and we know loadholt has his struggles. It's really unfortunate because kalil and sullivan have been pretty solid. It's a shame though because realistically we're gonna have to get at least one G AND a big #1 type WR for this offense to gain more consistency. You simply can't run max protect when jenkins is your best option.

LOL! Just thinking about that makes me laugh.

On defense they need another LB, DT, and CB and that's before K.will / Winfield retire... It's gonna be a long time before the Vikings reach that upper tier of teams.

Probably at least another season or two but with a little luck, they can do it. Spielman's going to have to make good use of free agency and the draft to pull it off.

this game went exactly as i thought it would. we really were never in it from the opening kick.

This is the thing, no NFL team is solid at every position.

I think a big part of it is age. This is one of the youngest teams in the NFL. A lot of guys, especially in the secondary are going to get better with experience. Case in point, Chicago’s lesser guys are for the most part more experienced than ours, especially on defense.

We have some specific weaknesses that are being exposed. The question is can the problem be solved? Drafting is one avenue to this. Coaching/Development is another. So is FA. I would say at LB, OG, and WR all 3 are viable and even a 2nd tier FA signing would probably be at least a push vs. current talent.

Spielman has talked about Carlson being better next year. Frasier has talked about Simpson’s injury nagging. Maybe those are just excuses for the media, but maybe it is true. Maybe Fusco comes back better next year, some guys do better with experience. Who knows? The nice thing is that aside from Winfield/KWill, time is still mostly on our side.

Mothman wrote: The Vikings didn't have a starting-caliber WR on the field today. Wright was the closest but I don't think he's really there yet. The Bears had no trouble at all defending the Vikes passing game and poor WR play was the #1 reason. #2 was Ponder, who made some nice throws but was inconsistent again and threw several passes high and/or late, one of which was picked off.

Turnovers dumb penalties, poor execution (shanked punt, missed tackles, etc.) killed the Vikings today. If they want to take the next step, they need to minimize that stuff, especially on the road against a divisional opponent.

I was seriously disappointed in the DL. They gave Cutler way too much time and he took advantage of it.

#1. The Vikings receiving corps, and the general history of their experience with free agent receivers, has pushed me really hard towards thinking that the only way the Vikings can fill out their ranks with guys who can catch a ball is to draft them. The last free agent receiver that outplayed the rest of the depth chart clearly that I can recall was Koren Robinson. I just think back at that long line of failed free agents and cringe. Jerome Simpson is looking more and more like the latest in that long line that includes Mike Jenkins, Bernard Berrian, and many, many more failed transplants. The Vikings almost always do better when they draft their wideouts. Rice, Harvin, now Wright, even going back to Moss, Reed, Burleson, it always seemed like they got a lot better production out of the guys they drafted over the years. This team needs to get past the idea that they can't draft receivers high. Everyone else is and it works out for them very well a fair amount of the time. Just because there are a few receivers around the league that were signed as free agents or drafted low doesn't mean that's a sure deal for the Vikes.

#2. I don't think there's much they can do to fix the special teams. I think they just had a lousy game. It happens at Soldier Field to even the best special teams players. That is what Soldier Field is designed to do. Best you can do is prepare for failure, I think. Overall, most of this year the Vikings special teams have been very solid. Kluwe had been very reliable, Walsh was a revelation, the kick return game has had some big scores, and the coverage team hasn't been too bad. This was just a bad game in a tough stadium to play special teams.

#3. Every game, I increasingly get frustrated with the interior of the Vikings line. We got too complacent about the idea of a Williams wall for too many years, and forgot that we no longer HAVE a Williams wall. We have a Williams and Guion, one of which is visibly slowing down and the other is pretty ho-hum. I think Kennedy still gets in there? Is he still with the team? Does anyone even care/realize this? Is Evans still around? Because as soon as opposing teams decided to try testing the Vikings interior, they discovered that they can gameplan again for taking the ball straight up the field and block out the Vikings two pass rushing ends. I WANT them to draft a prototypical DT, but I'm increasingly torn between that and WR. When offenses realize they can't run up the middle, they'll open up more opportunities for the ends to turn on the pressure. That's pretty much the main reason why the Vikings line has been effective in the recent past. However, that certainly hadn't negated the passing game as everyone expected it should, so the problems are in the linebacking corps as well.

#4. They're not getting a new quarterback, unless it's through free agency...which I can see happening. Especially if San Fran decides to salary dump or trade Smith for a first round pick. I don't think the Vikings will be the recipient of that unless a few other struggling young quarterbacks around the league struggle a lot less. After watching Mark Sanchez last Thursday, I don't know about that. If they're drafting a guy, it's either a very temporary stopgap because they've completely lost faith in Ponder, or they're looking to get rid of Webb. Next year's draft isn't exactly a franchise quarterback trove. Honestly, Ponder is still their best shot no matter how bad he's looked. He's going to need more than one undersized receiver week in/week out that can catch a tough ball when it's important. He's going to need TWO of them!

#5. Yeah, Musgrave's offense has never seemed to achieve what was advertised. It's like maybe it doesn't ideally fit the personnel he has, so he simplifies it and it becomes predictable.

#6. The one position that the Vikings front office have often been fairly successful at over the years in free agency is linebacker. Maybe something worth looking into. They've also had some success with defensive backs. But generally speaking, the Vikings don't do awesomely at free agency. I don't think these things will be fixed there unless Zygi Wilf kicks the door into Spielman's office and sticks a pink slip in his face and suggests he'll sign it if Spielman doesn't spend his (Zygi's) money right quick.

Be mindful that you are lumping in multiple regimes in terms of front office and player eval. Under Mike Tice/Red McCombs our FA / Scouting was probably the poorest funded outfit in the league. That is not a team trend, it is an ownership trend. During the Childress era we have the TOA and then Childress being his authoritarian self. The first season of Frasier we didn’t see Spielman as fully in charge of personnel. This is the first season of seeing Spielman’s product on the field and before saying “well he sucks too” we should recall that he wanted to blow this roster up 2 years ago. He is getting that process started, but 2 years behind schedule.

Also, it is worth noting that Nate Burelson and Sidney Rice, two drafted Vikings WR, have been decent FA pick ups for their respective teams. So that shows that you can get a solid player in FA. The question is why the Vikings miss out. I am fine with their generally conservative approach, but I think they’ve reached a point where they have specific needs and as such, it might make sense to bid to get what is needed. Just depends on what is out there.

Rus wrote:#1. The Vikings receiving corps, and the general history of their experience with free agent receivers, has pushed me really hard towards thinking that the only way the Vikings can fill out their ranks with guys who can catch a ball is to draft them. The last free agent receiver that outplayed the rest of the depth chart clearly that I can recall was Koren Robinson. I just think back at that long line of failed free agents and cringe. Jerome Simpson is looking more and more like the latest in that long line that includes Mike Jenkins, Bernard Berrian, and many, many more failed transplants. The Vikings almost always do better when they draft their wideouts. Rice, Harvin, now Wright, even going back to Moss, Reed, Burleson, it always seemed like they got a lot better production out of the guys they drafted over the years. This team needs to get past the idea that they can't draft receivers high. Everyone else is and it works out for them very well a fair amount of the time. Just because there are a few receivers around the league that were signed as free agents or drafted low doesn't mean that's a sure deal for the Vikes.

I couldn't agree more, Rus. I don't know when the notion that drafting a WR high is a bad thing started but it's a crock. The best athletes coming out of college are the WRs. It's not rocket science finding guys that can catch and run. Of course, a team only gets so many picks and in the Vikings case they have a lot of other needs, which is one big reason why they probably feel they can't always take a WR in R1 or R2. And you can't guarantee that the WR you covet is going to fall to your pick.

I think the Vikings need to acquire two, maybe three, WRs from the draft and/or free agency next year. Personally, I'm with you in the Vikings looking to the draft. Naturally not every draft pick is a sure thing, regardless how well they played in college, but judicious scouting should give the team an idea of what they're really getting, what kind of system the kid plays well in, and what his strengths and weaknesses are. I thought Spielman did a smart thing by drafting both Childs and Wright. Too bad Childs got injured. So I believe Spielman might very well go right back to the draft to find a WR or two.

That doesn't mean I think the Vikings should discount the free agency entirely. Just don't depend solely on it. It's no safer than drafting, in my view, and can still be a big time crap shoot. Too often the Vikings get a Jerome Simpson but they also signed a guy named Cris Carter at one time. OTOH, it's almost impossible to find another Carter but you get the idea.

losperros wrote:I couldn't agree more, Rus. I don't know when the notion that drafting a WR high is a bad thing started but it's a crock. The best athletes coming out of college are the WRs. It's not rocket science finding guys that can catch and run. Of course, a team only gets so many picks and in the Vikings case they have a lot of other needs, which is one big reason why they probably feel they can't always take a WR in R1 or R2. And you can't guarantee that the WR you covet is going to fall to your pick.

I think those last two points are the most relevant. The Vikes don't seem to have a problem taking WRs in the early rounds of the draft. they drafted Harvin in R1 and Rice in R2. Williamson was a high R1 pick (although that obviously didn't work out well at all). All 3 were chosen within the past decade.

I think the Vikings need to acquire two, maybe three, WRs from the draft and/or free agency next year. Personally, I'm with you in the Vikings looking to the draft. Naturally not every draft pick is a sure thing, regardless how well they played in college, but judicious scouting should give the team an idea of what they're really getting, what kind of system the kid plays well in, and what his strengths and weaknesses are. I thought Spielman did a smart thing by drafting both Childs and Wright. Too bad Childs got injured. So I believe Spielman might very well go right back to the draft to find a WR or two.

As you said, I hope he looks to the draft and free agency. They need to do a serious overhaul of their WR corps and they can't discount any possible road to improvement.

The best way to describe yesterdays game and the year in general requires a quote from the past "they are who we thought they are".

A team that is rebuilding and trying to regain their place as a divisional leader. As fans, we want it NOW but rebuilding takes time and some kind of plan. In either case, rebuilding certainly requires more than one year. I believe we made great strides this year (thru the draft) in filling some glaring needs but once again they made terrible mistakes thru free agency. While its foolish to think that one draft alone would make them competative against GB or Chicago. It is certainly not unfair to expect some kind of production from the free agents they signed and that did not happen (again) on the offensive side of the ball reguarding WR's or TE's!

If free agency is the route they choose to go in order to fill their glaring need at receiving options then this team can no longer continue to overpay for the tier 2 or tier 3 free agents they continue to sign. We have tried it in the past, this just in, IT DOES NOT WORK Berrian, Simpson, Shanko, Carlson were not and are not they answere. Unless they open the pocket book and go after a TRUE #1 WR that has proven their ability to fill the downfield void then, IMO the rebuilding has to be done thru the draft and unfortunately, its going to be a painfull ride at times before we get back to the top.

I love how people declare "Joe Webb is not the answer at QB" with very little real-game evidence to go on. I would like to find out for sure, before we let him go. It's not like Ponder is the answer to any question that makes sense.

I do not think those of us who are saying “Webb is not the answer” are saying so because we want him cut. We are saying it because we think benching Ponder is bad idea at this point. Those are two very different things.

As far as the draft is concerned, keep in mind that a typical WR takes 2-3 seasons to develop. We added 2 in the 4th round last year. Right now we do not know the max upside on those two guys. I think JW will be better next year, how much better, I do not know. The guy has wheels and that should help. Childs has the type of body and skill set the Vikings most definitely need, but his injury status is at best a question mark right now. They definitely need help and should add talent to this group in any way they can, just saying some help might already be on the team.

I really think they are closer to being competitive than it seems. Right now we just have two talent deficiencies at OG and WR that opposing teams have exposed. Last year it was well known that the three major areas of need were OL, WR, and the Secondary. They attempted to address all three in the 2012 draft. They hit on Kalil and look to have hit well in the Secondary. The WR were later round picks and as I said above, typically take time to develop. I think it is safe to say the OG need some talent and the WR desperately need talent. (I think this will be our 1st round selection) Given how Spielman ran the offseason last year, I think it is safe to assume we will see these areas getting attention along with LB and DT.

My guess is that unless something seriously bad happens between now and January, Ponder will be our starting next September. I do think if they continue on their current trajectory of improving the roster that 2013 will be his make or break season. He has to show more consistency with his downfield passing. I’m still willing to give the guy time. He has had issues this year, but he IS better than he was last year. I previously cited the bootlegs where the guy didn’t force the throws which he was doing 3-4 weeks ago. I have to think that the downfield issues will be a major focus for him this offseason. So far he has shown he can handle fixing these things and improving, let’s hope he continues to show that ability.

Screw it, I am back. I apologize for the following rant, but I could not hold my tongue any longer.

I must admit, I am starting to believe I was wrong about Ponder. It appears that Ponder is not the long term answer at QB. I know he is still young and judgement needs to ultimately be withheld until the season is entirely over, however, yesterday's performance was very disheartening to say the least. Ponder struggled against a good defense, which IMO, paints a bleak picture for the future. I understand that QBs are going to struggle against good defenses like Chicago. However, Ponder's performance yesterday was very similar to his performances against Detroit, Arizona, and Seattle. Save for Detroit (which hinders his case for being the long term answer even more), that now makes three games in which Ponder has failed to show anything against above average defenses. IMO, if Ponder cannot at least do something respectable in any of those three games, Ponder probably does not have it.

I am so damn sick of Bill Musgrave. He needs to be fired immediately. It is the same damn play calling, over, and over. Let's not run Peterson extensively, screw it, he just sucks. Oh, and those PA rollouts are really fooling the defense, better keep dialing it up every time we call play action. I am sick of making excuses for the guy, his play calling is just ####. I almost (key word almost) miss the Childress offense! At least he wasn't afraid to run the ball!

If I may rant further, every wide receiver not named Jarius Wright and Percy Harvin needs to go. Honestly, like I told my father and my friends, Troy Williamson would have at least caught one of those balls Jerome dropped yesterday. Michael Jenkins yet again is nothing outside of average even though he was WIDE OPEN on a play that would have gone for huge yardage and Ponder missed him. Aromashdu is nothing outside of a body on the field. Burton has rock hands and sucks.

Finally, why in the hell is Brandon Fusco still starting? Geoff Schwartz is ten times the player Fusco is. Schwartz does a great job of second level blocking, and doesn't get beat like a drum in pass protection. There is a damn reason we gave the guy a contract. Phil Loadholt is doing better, but I still don't know if he deserves a big contract in the offseason. Charlie Johnson has gotten better but the position could be upgraded. Sullivan struggled early yesterday but got better as the game went on. Matt Kalil is a STUD and I am very glad we at least have one consistent player on the offensive line. He should be in the Pro Bowl IMO.

I could rant about the defense specifically, but I am just going to say that I think Everson Griffen needs more snaps, Christian Ballard needs more snaps, Harrison Smith is an animal, Winfield is an animal, and our linebackers are pathetic.

Overall, this season has been much better to watch than last year's disaster, but it is still frustrating. The play calling sucks, Ponder is not producing like I hoped he would, the wide receivers suck, the offensive line is still garbage in pass protection. I still think this team will finish 8-8 which would make me feel better but this team's problems cannot be overlooked in the offseason. If this team somehow makes the playoffs, I will be very excited, but I fear that the things that hinder this team will be overlooked.