Mid Atlantic Riff
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VikingMachine
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wang_chi7
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Re: Mid Atlantic Riff
I think the end of the Cold War has a big part of it too. Now Europe hates America and what we stand for, and America hates Europe because of their snobby ways, and frankly because it isn't with us (and therefore against us.) That is more true with our relationship with France than Britain, but it plays a big part. If it doesn't come from our neck of the woods we don't like it, sadly.Minniman wrote:Today I was listening to some easy listening tunes, and the song Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying by Gerry and the Pacemakers came on. It really took me back to the old days.
I am not really old enough to remember the early days of the British Invasion, but I grew up listening to the Beatles, Stones, Herman's Hermits, Dave Clark 5, Hollies, and Gerry and the Pacemakers nevertheless. I also watched shows like Monty Python, the Goodies, and other British humor on PBS along with Sci Fi like UFO. It was almost like any foggy or rainy day could be a day in London or Liverpool.
When I was in high school, the British second wave came in the form of British MTV pop music and NWBHM rock. NATO was a big deal with the Warsaw Pact ready for war at any moment. The Cold War linked the Allies - especially the United States, the UK, and West Germany. It was like we were all one. We were all in it together.
Maybe I am just older, but I don't believe we have those ties anymore. I don't feel the same British and German historical bonds, and I don't see as much music coming from the Old World. Other than watching a bit of Dr. Who and Coupling on BBC America, there isn't much to grab a hold of.
I guess that it was bound to come with the end of the Cold War, but I really miss those days when the Atlantic Ocean linked us with our neighbors in Europe rather than divided us. I miss the crossover bands from the UK charts, and I miss all of that UK dry humor.
Perhaps I should put on Zenyatta Mondatta or dig out the Monty Python DVD's, but it isn't as much that I want to re-live the past as much as I want the future to be more like the past. No, not another Cold War, but a foggy day in Manchester would be nice.
There has been some influence from across the pond, just not huge like the Beatles or NWOBHM. Oasis not too long ago was the biggest band in the world (and is still a favorite of mine.) The Strokes, The Hives, Coldplay, and many other bands of similar sound do have a significance here in the states. While not all the bands of that genre (whatever it would be called), are British in origin but they have a sound that started there.
I miss Monty Python and British humor too, but I also miss Saturday Night Live; its fair to say that comedy on both sides of the ocean has become cheaper and less funny. When talent comes up again from over there, there will be at least a small audience here waiting to give it a listen but there probably won't be anything like Python, Second City, or SNL again, atleast anytime soon.
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VikingMachine
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Re: Mid Atlantic Riff
I disagree there is always new talent to replace the old.wang_chi7 wrote: I think the end of the Cold War has a big part of it too. Now Europe hates America and what we stand for, and America hates Europe because of their snobby ways, and frankly because it isn't with us (and therefore against us.) That is more true with our relationship with France than Britain, but it plays a big part. If it doesn't come from our neck of the woods we don't like it, sadly.
There has been some influence from across the pond, just not huge like the Beatles or NWOBHM. Oasis not too long ago was the biggest band in the world (and is still a favorite of mine.) The Strokes, The Hives, Coldplay, and many other bands of similar sound do have a significance here in the states. While not all the bands of that genre (whatever it would be called), are British in origin but they have a sound that started there.
I miss Monty Python and British humor too, but I also miss Saturday Night Live; its fair to say that comedy on both sides of the ocean has become cheaper and less funny. When talent comes up again from over there, there will be at least a small audience here waiting to give it a listen but there probably won't be anything like Python, Second City, or SNL again, atleast anytime soon.
You have no idea how many times I have heard, "there will never be another ________" ....well there is always another star waiting to be born, another song to be sung and another show to be made.
Now things change as far as formats and the like but the talent is always up and comming.
That explains a lot.
29
You didn't grow up with the Cold War, so you can't really completely understand what I am talking about. As an example, The Hunt For Red October may be a good movie or not to you, but you will never be able to view it from the reference point of those who lived through those years. You won't be able to view the 60's or 80's music from a similar point of view. There is nothing wrong with that, but that point must be understood.
You may not like hair bands because you lived in the age of grunge, and now kids view grunge with the same contempt you viewed hair bands. I am not sure you even understand why hair band became popular and what their demise was because you didn't live it. All of the rock documentaries can say what they want, but grunge didn't kill hair metal, bad songs, the record labels, and MTV killed hair metal.
When I see the video for the Scorpions Wind of Change, I get tears in my eyes because the lyrics are a powerful reminder of the end of the Cold War. Being that the Scorpions were from West Germany, they were in the middle of it all, and they were one of the first heavy metal bands allowed to play their formerly banned music in Red Square.
Scorpions Blackout also was a great album, and the Scorps put Van Halen to shame at the US Festival and rocked on the World Wide Live Tour.
Last edited by Minniman on Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
We come from the land of the ice and snow .... 
Thanks for talking about why you like the Scorpions, as I did when people criticized bands (SP) and artists (Tupac) that I respect. It is much better and more constructive than crying about it.
For the record, and I don't blame you for assuming I'm a "grunge" kid based on my age, the Beatles were my favorite band from grade 3 on, by 5th I was rocking out to Jimi, Janis, The Who, Zeppelin, the Moody Blues, etc., and in 8th grade I discovered Bob Dylan, who I spent almost all of high school obsessed with and listening exclusively to, except for a band called the Grateful Dead. My mantra in high school was that "All modern music sucks."
So really, as far as my musical history is concerned, I'm a 60s kid all the way. It wasn't until college and later that I discovered a bunch of 90s-00s rock and hip-hop.
I know that my point of view is different than yours, living in a different era, but I felt I needed to clear that up...my sensibilities, for most of my life, were acid-tinged and revolutionary.
Also, as I tried to illustrate when VikingMachine challenged me to name the bands I like, I (now) like an extremely diverse cross-section of music, including some 80s bands, like the Talking Heads. I am glad that music moves you to tears, and I want you to like what you like, but my dislike for the hair-band rock is purely aesthetic, and it is one of the only types of music (along with Tejano) that I simply completely dislike.
As to your OP, I think music has become absolutely worldly. No longer are Britain (and, perhaps, Germany) the *only* cultural influences on America. Rather, music from everywhere---even India and Nigeria and Mexico and Japan-- has found an ear among Americans. And I think that's great.
Music has also become completely blended. Most of my favorite bands from the present day use a vast array of sounds from all over the planet, sometimes even in one song. I think of the classic Beck song "Nicotine and Gravy," which alternates between dark rock and high energy funk, and culminates with a bluegrassy banjo riff. The next song on the album is 80s-esque casio pre-electronica, the one after that is a 70sish AM Gold type rocker. Hip-hop artists, despite being called soulless by some, are some of the greatest innovators in this regard.
In short, I do not wish to interrupt (or "hi-jack") your nostalgia, but from where I'm standing, I wouldn't trade what we've got going on musically right now for anything. (And that's not even getting started on how awesome technology is now, and what it has done for music.) British culture is still alive here, as evidenced by the Coldplays and The Offices, etc.; it's just not the only thing.
For the record, and I don't blame you for assuming I'm a "grunge" kid based on my age, the Beatles were my favorite band from grade 3 on, by 5th I was rocking out to Jimi, Janis, The Who, Zeppelin, the Moody Blues, etc., and in 8th grade I discovered Bob Dylan, who I spent almost all of high school obsessed with and listening exclusively to, except for a band called the Grateful Dead. My mantra in high school was that "All modern music sucks."
So really, as far as my musical history is concerned, I'm a 60s kid all the way. It wasn't until college and later that I discovered a bunch of 90s-00s rock and hip-hop.
I know that my point of view is different than yours, living in a different era, but I felt I needed to clear that up...my sensibilities, for most of my life, were acid-tinged and revolutionary.
Also, as I tried to illustrate when VikingMachine challenged me to name the bands I like, I (now) like an extremely diverse cross-section of music, including some 80s bands, like the Talking Heads. I am glad that music moves you to tears, and I want you to like what you like, but my dislike for the hair-band rock is purely aesthetic, and it is one of the only types of music (along with Tejano) that I simply completely dislike.
As to your OP, I think music has become absolutely worldly. No longer are Britain (and, perhaps, Germany) the *only* cultural influences on America. Rather, music from everywhere---even India and Nigeria and Mexico and Japan-- has found an ear among Americans. And I think that's great.
Music has also become completely blended. Most of my favorite bands from the present day use a vast array of sounds from all over the planet, sometimes even in one song. I think of the classic Beck song "Nicotine and Gravy," which alternates between dark rock and high energy funk, and culminates with a bluegrassy banjo riff. The next song on the album is 80s-esque casio pre-electronica, the one after that is a 70sish AM Gold type rocker. Hip-hop artists, despite being called soulless by some, are some of the greatest innovators in this regard.
In short, I do not wish to interrupt (or "hi-jack") your nostalgia, but from where I'm standing, I wouldn't trade what we've got going on musically right now for anything. (And that's not even getting started on how awesome technology is now, and what it has done for music.) British culture is still alive here, as evidenced by the Coldplays and The Offices, etc.; it's just not the only thing.
I'm not going to jump into this one because the water is just a little too hot for me. However, I would like to go on record saying that Smashing Pumpkins is awesome. Mellon Collie, Gish, and Siamese dream especially.
And Colinito ... the last albums had a few jewels, but I can answer your question about "What happened" to the pumpkins after those albums;
Billy Corgan forgot that he doesn't actually have a very good voice and lost his anger. Which is good for him, but not so good for his music, I'm afraid. Their music was driven by lyrics and music (Especially Jimmy Chamberlin's drumming which was exceptional IMO) and not vocals.
Zwan also had a few nuggets worth listening to, though mostly is a throw away. His solo album was completely horrible. I haven't listened to the new album yet, but it's my feeling that they probably should have stayed broken up ... I really need to listen and find out.
And Colinito ... the last albums had a few jewels, but I can answer your question about "What happened" to the pumpkins after those albums;
Billy Corgan forgot that he doesn't actually have a very good voice and lost his anger. Which is good for him, but not so good for his music, I'm afraid. Their music was driven by lyrics and music (Especially Jimmy Chamberlin's drumming which was exceptional IMO) and not vocals.
Zwan also had a few nuggets worth listening to, though mostly is a throw away. His solo album was completely horrible. I haven't listened to the new album yet, but it's my feeling that they probably should have stayed broken up ... I really need to listen and find out.
Last edited by Cliff on Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm with you on the technology aspect as I believe that is where some truly revolutionary stuff can happen in music, but you really wouldn't trade what is happening in music right now for, say, 1955, 1964, 1967 or even the expansion in musical expression during the early-mid 80s when practically every genre went under major changes? I personally would love to trade today for 1991.Colinito wrote: ...but from where I'm standing, I wouldn't trade what we've got going on musically right now for anything. (And that's not even getting started on how awesome technology is now, and what it has done for music.)
What is happening now that makes this such a great time in music? I tend to view the mid-2000s as a pretty bleak period, much akin to the late 80s before Nirvana and NWA redefined the musical landscape. There is some pretty crappy music at the forefront right now, and I will be interested to see what shakes up the establishment and starts the next revolution. But, other than that anticipation, where's the good stuff?
And, I don't think all rap is soulless. Listen to Brother Ali, and you'll hear plenty of soul.
BGM
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer." - Frank Zappa
BGM, thanks for the nicely-worded and well-thought post!
1967 was a very special time in History, you won't hear me talking trash about it. Like Hunter S. Thompson said in "Fear and Loathing," it's like the high water mark where the tide crashed against the walls of History. The Beatles blew minds, Bob Dylan went back to country, the Dead released their first album, LSD was everywhere....it was probably a wonderful time to be a young person, huh?
But, I mean, how many genres of music were at the forefront in the 50s and 60s? Blues, R+B, Country, Rock, Pop??
What I like about today is that it has become completely shattered and splintered, like I talked about above. Genres have become blended, everyone's doing everything, and people are using a wide array of genres of music.
Wyclef Jean, who released "Carnival V.2" this year, has a song called "Hollywood Meets Bollywood," that integrates Indian, Houston hip-hop, and a little Latin. He touches on reggae, latin, Cuban, zydeco, cumbias, hip-hop, folk, dub, dancehall, etc. etc., all on one album.
The Mash-Up (fueled by technology) has helped bridge rock and electronic music. DJ Dangermouse did The Grey Album, which featured the music of The Beatles' "White Album" and Jay-Z's "Black Album." Brilliant stuff.
Similarly, The Kleptones mashed up the music of The Flaming Lips' "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" with various hip-hop artists on "Yoshimi Battles the Hip-Hop Robots." Hell, the aforementioned Lips album itself is a huge bridge between electronic beats, folk, and pop.
Bands like The New Deal and The Disco Biscuits have turned electronic music into live music--actually playing the music with standard rock instruments (drums, key, guitar, bass). The Disco Biscuits, if you haven't heard them, are incredible! They improvise electronic beats over original rock standards and can turn on a dime, it is amazing to see and listen to.
On the other end, typically electronic acts have embraced rock. Shpongle, my favorite DJ group, mixes up dub, Indian, Chinese, psychedelic rock, etc. and unless you knew they were DJs you may mistake them for acid-tinged world music. Hip-Hop bands like The Roots play all their own music (live), and other hip-hop artists have started using live keyboards, bass, and other instruments in the studio instead of straight sampling. Artists like Kanye have created new music out of original forms of sampling (as well as sampling a wide array of music). Scratch DJs like Mix Master Mike have created alien transmissions via the art of turntabalism. DJs like Z-Trip will go from "Run Like Hell" to "Nuttin' But a G Thing" to "Rhinestone Cowboy" in a matter of minutes. At my local club, I hear my favorite Austin DJ, DJ Mel, play 50 cent rhymes over the music of The Safety Dance.
Arcade Fire (If you haven't checked out their albums, "Funeral" and "Neon Bible" you are missing out on the greatest albums of this time) bring interesting instrumentation (they have several string and horn players in their base formation) to an incredibly diverse sampling of music. One song on their new album, "Ocean of Noise," melts into some sort of Belgian fugal chorus at the end. Their epic anthem "Rebellion (Lies)" is like acoustic-rock techno. (All with amazing lyrics, mind you.)
Of Montreal seems to divine a different 60s/70s group with every song, albeit an electronically (and chemically) altered version of it, from Spencer Davis to Country Joe to Pink Floyd, and it is delightfully mind-melting.
Those are just a few examples of why I think music today is as good as it has ever been. The problem with being so fractured/splintered/blended, however, is that no "movement" will ever take over again. I listen to zero radio, so I don't know what popular music today consists of, but it seems to me that there's a little bit of everything. Artists blow up, but not genres. It's not like a grunge or gangsta rap is ever going to just burst on the scene anymore.
But bubbling just beneath the surface is a soapy mix of every type of music that has ever been played, arranged in perpetually unique ways so that we'll never run out of possibilities.
1967 was a very special time in History, you won't hear me talking trash about it. Like Hunter S. Thompson said in "Fear and Loathing," it's like the high water mark where the tide crashed against the walls of History. The Beatles blew minds, Bob Dylan went back to country, the Dead released their first album, LSD was everywhere....it was probably a wonderful time to be a young person, huh?
But, I mean, how many genres of music were at the forefront in the 50s and 60s? Blues, R+B, Country, Rock, Pop??
What I like about today is that it has become completely shattered and splintered, like I talked about above. Genres have become blended, everyone's doing everything, and people are using a wide array of genres of music.
Wyclef Jean, who released "Carnival V.2" this year, has a song called "Hollywood Meets Bollywood," that integrates Indian, Houston hip-hop, and a little Latin. He touches on reggae, latin, Cuban, zydeco, cumbias, hip-hop, folk, dub, dancehall, etc. etc., all on one album.
The Mash-Up (fueled by technology) has helped bridge rock and electronic music. DJ Dangermouse did The Grey Album, which featured the music of The Beatles' "White Album" and Jay-Z's "Black Album." Brilliant stuff.
Similarly, The Kleptones mashed up the music of The Flaming Lips' "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" with various hip-hop artists on "Yoshimi Battles the Hip-Hop Robots." Hell, the aforementioned Lips album itself is a huge bridge between electronic beats, folk, and pop.
Bands like The New Deal and The Disco Biscuits have turned electronic music into live music--actually playing the music with standard rock instruments (drums, key, guitar, bass). The Disco Biscuits, if you haven't heard them, are incredible! They improvise electronic beats over original rock standards and can turn on a dime, it is amazing to see and listen to.
On the other end, typically electronic acts have embraced rock. Shpongle, my favorite DJ group, mixes up dub, Indian, Chinese, psychedelic rock, etc. and unless you knew they were DJs you may mistake them for acid-tinged world music. Hip-Hop bands like The Roots play all their own music (live), and other hip-hop artists have started using live keyboards, bass, and other instruments in the studio instead of straight sampling. Artists like Kanye have created new music out of original forms of sampling (as well as sampling a wide array of music). Scratch DJs like Mix Master Mike have created alien transmissions via the art of turntabalism. DJs like Z-Trip will go from "Run Like Hell" to "Nuttin' But a G Thing" to "Rhinestone Cowboy" in a matter of minutes. At my local club, I hear my favorite Austin DJ, DJ Mel, play 50 cent rhymes over the music of The Safety Dance.
Arcade Fire (If you haven't checked out their albums, "Funeral" and "Neon Bible" you are missing out on the greatest albums of this time) bring interesting instrumentation (they have several string and horn players in their base formation) to an incredibly diverse sampling of music. One song on their new album, "Ocean of Noise," melts into some sort of Belgian fugal chorus at the end. Their epic anthem "Rebellion (Lies)" is like acoustic-rock techno. (All with amazing lyrics, mind you.)
Of Montreal seems to divine a different 60s/70s group with every song, albeit an electronically (and chemically) altered version of it, from Spencer Davis to Country Joe to Pink Floyd, and it is delightfully mind-melting.
Those are just a few examples of why I think music today is as good as it has ever been. The problem with being so fractured/splintered/blended, however, is that no "movement" will ever take over again. I listen to zero radio, so I don't know what popular music today consists of, but it seems to me that there's a little bit of everything. Artists blow up, but not genres. It's not like a grunge or gangsta rap is ever going to just burst on the scene anymore.
But bubbling just beneath the surface is a soapy mix of every type of music that has ever been played, arranged in perpetually unique ways so that we'll never run out of possibilities.
I'm with you on those albums being their finest, although what I like most about those albums is that Corgan can do it all---the soft sweet, lyrically driven, and the thrashing, angst-ridden tracks. Now it all sounds like generic rock IMO. (And I got their new album on the first day like an idiot.)Cliff wrote:I'm not going to jump into this one because the water is just a little too hot for me. However, I would like to go on record saying that Smashing Pumpkins is awesome. Mellon Collie, Gish, and Siamese dream especially.
Billy Corgan forgot that he doesn't actually have a very good voice and lost his anger. Which is good for him, but not so good for his music, I'm afraid. Their music was driven by lyrics and music (Especially Jimmy Chamberlin's drumming which was exceptional IMO) and not vocals.
I think he just lost his passion. It happens. Even Bob Dylan lost it for over a decade, that awful gap between "Street Legal" in 1978 and "World Gone Wrong" in 1994. Come back Billy!!
Interestingly enough, I think this mish-mashing of genres has made music more shades of gray than anything else. I mean, one of the great things about the Fifties and Sixties, hard rock and prog rock in the Seventies, punk and heavy metal in the Eighties and grunge and rap in the Nineties is that those genres were in their infancy and people were really experimenting and flexing the new sounds. Maybe that is what you see happening, but I see things being watered down right now rather than that "mad scientist laboratory" that I crave. So what will the first decade of the 21st Century be known for musically? I pray it isn't American Idol.
And I disagree that genres have become so blurred that you won't have a major genre wave. That is actually the thing that I look forward to... if these things are happening like you say, then I will wait in anticipation to see what new matter or anti-matter comes out the other side. Until then, I guess I find solace in the familiar while tentatively branching out to hear new things.
I'm old.
BGM
And I disagree that genres have become so blurred that you won't have a major genre wave. That is actually the thing that I look forward to... if these things are happening like you say, then I will wait in anticipation to see what new matter or anti-matter comes out the other side. Until then, I guess I find solace in the familiar while tentatively branching out to hear new things.
I'm old.
BGM
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer." - Frank Zappa
Actually, more than you might think. Pop and rock were obviously going through major transitions but some of the cross-cultural musical pollination you were talking about was already happening back then. Of course, as a Beatles fan, you'd be aware of that.Colinito wrote:But, I mean, how many genres of music were at the forefront in the 50s and 60s? Blues, R+B, Country, Rock, Pop??
Anyway, rock and pop were exploding but jazz was also big in the '60s. Electronic music and musical movements like minimalism were in their infancy but by the end of that decade, the groundwork for electronic music in the 70s had been laid. Folk music was huge. Funk was being born and then there are the musical genres you mentioned above. I think the music scene was at least as diverse as it is now, if not even more diverse.
In some ways, I really enjoy the way a wide variety of musical and cultural influences are incorporated into much of today's music but as Brian said, it can result in a sort of "gray" musical scene. I like some current music, and I think some really interesting sounds and recordings emerged out of the DJ culture in the late '90s, but I'm still kind of waiting for something to kick the music scene in the pants again.
I wish I had time to write more because I've really been enjoying the posts you and Brian have been exchanging on this. You have both made some excellent points and you've mentioned some bands and albums I need to check out.
Jim