Percy's future w/ Vikings looking uncertain

[dead_poet]

Jim's Pro Football Focus Team debates:

The Harvin Debate

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... in-debate/

[Mothman]

The above quote from Judge didn't impress me at all, Jim, mostly due to his incoherent reasoning.

BTW, how does Judge know that Harvin complains "every time" a Ponder pass goes awry? We're actually expected to believe that if Ponder is off target, then Harvin will automatically run over to Frazier and complain? No ####? How many times did that happen? Maybe once that we know about? So Judge has to use an extreme exaggeration to make a supposed point, one that is inaccurate? Wow, what a debater!

As you said, I think he was exaggerating to make a point, not intending all of that to be taken literally. I didn't agree with some of the things he said about Harvin in the column but I think his bottom line point makes sense: IF Harvin's attitude is enough of a problem to be detrimental to the team, trade him. I'm not convinced that's the case but if it is, there's a point where talent and on-field production aren't enough to offset a detrimental attitude. Only the Vikings can determine where that point is for them and if Harvin is anywhere near it. I have no idea and I doubt Clark Judge does either.

[Mothman]

I would also dissagree on the assessment that PH is not a great player, only a good one. Harvin is one of only two guys on the current roster that is a threat every time he touches the ball. He is a major matchup problem for defenders and he has the ability in space to make people miss, turning nothing into something. That is rarified talent. Add to it his ability on Kick Returns and you have, as I said before, what the Bears dreamed of Devin Hester becoming. I don’t think that can be overstated. You have one guy who makes your kickoff return team a threat every play, every game, plus makes your passing game far more effective. One guy.

IMO, he is worth overpaying. I get all the conservative stuff about the cap, etc. Fine. This is a special player that they are going to have to get out the checkbook for. PH might be moody, greedy, and coming off as a spoiled child, but he is one of a rare breed in terms of NFL talent. Like it or not, that means he gets to play by different rules. The reality is if the Vikings do not step up to the plate, then someone else will.

Harvin shouldn't get to play by different rules, not if those "rules" enable him to be divisive or undermine the head coach. I'm not going to get into whether he's a great player or a good player because that's a semantic argument. He's a rare talent and I agree that it's worth paying a premium for that kind of talent but overpaying can be problematic. We both know it's not as simple as just paying Harvin whatever he wants. The team can't operate that way. They have to look at what he brings to the team in both a positive and negative sense, and determine what he's worth to them. There's guaranteed money, incentives and all sorts of other issues to consider.

I don't think trading him would necessarily be a colossal mistake. Remember, the Vikings won 5 of their last 7 games without him. What they get in return and what they do in the wake of a trade would determine how well things ultimately worked out. Ideally, it would be better to keep him, as long as he can happily co-exist with his teammates and coaches. Developing young players and re-signing them at or near the end of their rookie contracts is fundamental to team-building via the draft. However, if he gets his big payday from the Vikings, the drama needs to end.

[Mothman]

Jim's Pro Football Focus Team debates:

The Harvin Debate

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... in-debate/

Thanks! I thought was great and they both made some excellent points.

[mansquatch]

My point on Harvin playing by different rules is that he is a great player. The simple fact is talent wins games, therefore if you’ve got the talent you are going to be treated differently. You can not like it all you want, but the reality is the NFL is a highly competitive league and if the Vikings are not willing to dance with Harvin, then there will be no shortage of teams who will be willing to pay the piper to get him in their uniform.

A good player or average player is not going to have to kind of demand. IMO, it is just like the stupid stadium debate. You can hate public financing all you want. (I hate it too.) But the reality is that if you want an NFL team in your city, then you better pony up, because someone else will.

[Texas Vike]

All of the recent press on the "Harvin issue" seems to me to reflect the fact that there isn't much to talk about currently. Media folks grab the most intriguing story around, whether it has substance or not, with the hopes of generating readership. When we get closer to the draft all of that energy will be directed away from the PH situation.

I agree w/ other posters, Judge is off in his classification of PH as "good" and not "great". We'd be suckers taking anything less than a first for him. Even that might not be enough in my book.

[losperros]

I don't think trading him would necessarily be a colossal mistake. Remember, the Vikings won 5 of their last 7 games without him.

As in they would have lost all 7 games with Harvin???

Just kidding but I am getting weary of that being a reason to dump Harvin.

[losperros]

My point on Harvin playing by different rules is that he is a great player. The simple fact is talent wins games, therefore if you’ve got the talent you are going to be treated differently.

Yes! Exactly! When was the last time the Vikings had a truly balanced offense, including a lights out passing attack? In 2009. That's when their talent was also at its highest level. Favre's last hurrah as a QB, AD running the ball, and Rice and Harvin (gasp!) both as receivers.

You can not like it all you want, but the reality is the NFL is a highly competitive league and if the Vikings are not willing to dance with Harvin, then there will be no shortage of teams who will be willing to pay the piper to get him in their uniform.

A good player or average player is not going to have to kind of demand. IMO, it is just like the stupid stadium debate. You can hate public financing all you want. (I hate it too.) But the reality is that if you want an NFL team in your city, then you better pony up, because someone else will.

The one upside to all this is that if a team such as the Pats, Seahawks, or Niners trade for Harvin, they will be getting an offensive stud who will provide an immediate upgrade to their passing attack. And Harvin will be stepping up into a team surrounded with better players. Of course, that's only an upside for Harvin and those teams. The Vikings will take several giant steps backward with their offensive passing attack and be further behind in their rebuilding process.

[Mothman]

My point on Harvin playing by different rules is that he is a great player. The simple fact is talent wins games, therefore if you’ve got the talent you are going to be treated differently. You can not like it all you want, but the reality is the NFL is a highly competitive league and if the Vikings are not willing to dance with Harvin, then there will be no shortage of teams who will be willing to pay the piper to get him in their uniform.

I agree but honestly, that's fine. It should mean that if the Vikings feel they have to part with Harvin, they'll be able to get something valuable in return.

I'm not going to argue against the idea that talent wins games but talent is only part of the equation. It's a huge part but if that's all that mattered, we wouldn't see talented free agents go to new teams and disappoint or flame out as often as they do. Chemistry, attitude, etc. all play a part in team success too.

I understand your point. Talented players get treated differently because teams need talent. However, disruptive, problematic players are often treated differently than talented players who don't create such headaches because they too are different. That's one of the reasons clearly gifted, elite receivers like Moss and Owens bounced around the league quite a bit over their careers. So the question is: how much of a problem has Percy actually been for the Vikings? I don't know. I get the feeling he hasn't been such a big problem that they have to ship him out so I suspect this situation is primarily about money.

Harvin is an excellent player, a versatile weapon with talent any offense would love to have on the field. However, I think we have to keep that talent in perspective. We are not talking about a player with a career of elite, Adrian Peterson-like productivity here. As explosive as he is, I don't think Harvin is in that kind of rarefied air (I know some will disagree). For example, second year player Randall Cobb was the last pick in R2 of the 2011 and he gave Green Bay a level of production this season that compares favorably with Harvin's most productive season as a Viking (which was 2011).

Harvin in 2011: 1,312 combined rushing/receiving yards, 9 TDs (including returns)
Cobb in 2012: 1,086 rushing/receiving yards, 9 TDs (including returns)

Is Cobb one of the NFL's great players? The point of the comparison is that Harvin's not irreplaceable. Green Bay found a versatile playmaker who can do a lot of the same things for them, at a similar level of productivity, at the bottom of the draft's second round. Harvin's not the kind of talent a team wants to lose either but as I've been saying, the Vikings need to weigh the good with the bad and decide what's best for them. It's not as simple as just paying Harvin whatever he wants because if they don't, someone else will step up and pay it to him. I'm not convinced that's the case anyway. If he's looking for a deal that will pay him "Vincent Jackson" money, he may have to get there via a very incentive-laden contract, especially if he doesn't get that contract from the Vikings because it will mean some team has already given up something substantial in trade for him.

[Mothman]

As in they would have lost all 7 games with Harvin???

Just kidding but I am getting weary of that being a reason to dump Harvin.

It's not a reason to dump him. I can think of only two good reasons to trade Harvin:

He simply wants too much money, refuses to compromise and get a contract done and holds out for an extended period of time

and/or

He's much more of a disruptive, problematic player in the locker room than most of us thought and the Vikings believe keeping him will ultimately do more harm than good.

[dead_poet]

Harvin is an excellent player, a versatile weapon with talent any offense would love to have on the field. However, I think we have to keep that talent in perspective. We are not talking about a player with a career of elite, Adrian Peterson-like productivity here. As explosive as he is, I don't think Harvin is in that kind of rarefied air (I know some will disagree). For example, second year player Randall Cobb was the last pick in R2 of the 2011 and he gave Green Bay a level of production this season that compares favorably with Harvin's most productive season as a Viking (which was 2011).

Harvin in 2011: 1,312 combined rushing/receiving yards, 9 TDs (including returns)
Cobb in 2012: 1,086 rushing/receiving yards, 9 TDs (including returns)

I get what you're saying, but it's really hard to make that comparison when there's such a gulf of difference between Rodgers and Ponder and even Rodgers and the Silver Fox brand of Favre ('09 excluded). I'm not going to play the "put Harvin with Rodgers and Cobb with Ponder" game, but it's safe to say that while Cobb is a very good football player, he's "Percy Lite." All you have to do is evaluate them equally with the "eye test" and it's pretty clear who the better talent is. It's also a testament to Percy to put up those types of numbers in 2011 with McNabb-Ponder with Cobb catching lasers from a top-3 QB.

Based on what he can do and with a creative offensive coordinator and above-average QB play, I'd say harvin is one of the top five receivers in the game. Is he like AD? I don't think so. But the only guy in the league that's like AD is AD. It's unfair to try and compare those two. Or compare anyone to AD. Tangent: I see some reporters using AD's recovery as the new "standard" (for RGIII and others). I think that's pretty rough.

[Mothman]

I get what you're saying, but it's really hard to make that comparison when there's such a gulf of difference between Rodgers and Ponder and even Rodgers and the Silver Fox brand of Favre ('09 excluded). I'm not going to play the "put Harvin with Rodgers and Cobb with Ponder" game, but it's safe to say that while Cobb is a very good football player, he's "Percy Lite." All you have to do is evaluate them equally with the "eye test" and it's pretty clear who the better talent is. It's also a testament to Percy to put up those types of numbers in 2011 with McNabb-Ponder with Cobb catching lasers from a top-3 QB.

I agree but that's why I was emphasizing production. I think Harvin's more talented than Cobb too but I don't think the overall production Harvin brings to the offense is irreplaceable.

Based on what he can do and with a creative offensive coordinator and above-average QB play, I'd say harvin is one of the top five receivers in the game. Is he like AD? I don't think so. But the only guy in the league that's like AD is AD. It's unfair to try and compare those two. Or compare anyone to AD. Tangent: I see some reporters using AD's recovery as the new "standard" (for RGIII and others). I think that's pretty rough.

That is rough!

I was just using AD as an example of an elite, superstar, "cant' trade" player. I don't see Harvin as that kind of player. I probably should have used someone like Calvin Johnson as an example since he plays the same position as Harvin.

I have a lot of respect for Harvin's talent but I wouldn't put him among the top 5 receivers in the game. Think about it. Is he really better than all but 4 of the players below?

Calvin Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Andre Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Demaryius Thomas
Wes Welker
Roddy White
Vincent Jackson
A.J. Green
Reggie Wayne
Julio Jones
Victor Cruz
Steve Smith

He belongs somewhere in that group (and I probably left someone out that should be in there) but I don't know about the top 5. YMMV.

[dead_poet]

I think Harvin's more talented than Cobb too but I don't think the overall production Harvin brings to the offense is irreplaceable.

Few people are inherently irreplaceable. If we were stacked at receiver, trading Harvin wouldn't sting quite so much. But aside from AD, he's the best weapon we have on an offense that is devoid of playmakers. I'm just frustrated that the conversation is turning to this. Our pass offense was abysmal last season, even WITH Percy. We should be talking about ways to add pieces, not subtract the best one we have.

I have a lot of respect for Harvin's talent but I wouldn't put him among the top 5 receivers in the game. Think about it. Is he really better than all but 4 of the players below?

It's so hard to say because of what he brings to the table as a receiver, runner and returner. I'd say he probably ranks behind Calvin, Brandon, Andre and Larry. But from there it gets fuzzy for me.

He belongs somewhere in that group (and I probably left someone out that should be in there) but I don't know about the top 5. YMMV.

That's part of the problem. He does so much for a "slot" receiver. Reliable hands, YAC monster, fast, elusive, can run all the routes, can separate. He's certainly one of the best in the game. Top-whatever can be debated.

[Mothman]

Few people are inherently irreplaceable. If we were stacked at receiver, trading Harvin wouldn't sting quite so much. But aside from AD, he's the best weapon we have on an offense that is devoid of playmakers. I'm just frustrated that the conversation is turning to this. Our pass offense was abysmal last season, even WITH Percy. We should be talking about ways to add pieces, not subtract the best one we have.

That really frustrates me too. The last thing the Vikings need is to lose talent in their passing game. If it turns out that Harvin and the team have irreconcilable differences, it will be that much harder for the Vikings to make the improvement in that area they need to make.

That's part of the problem. He does so much for a "slot" receiver. Reliable hands, YAC monster, fast, elusive, can run all the routes, can separate. He's certainly one of the best in the game. Top-whatever can be debated.

Agreed and I imagine that makes determining his contract value somewhat difficult. It's always something with the Vikings, isn't it?

AD says he wouldn't trade him:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... cy-harvin/

[losperros]

Plus Harvin can serve as an effective RB out of the backfield and he's a terror as a returner, which makes him at the least as versatile as the top 5 receivers.

Quite honestly, Harvin's talent can't be questioned. This is about money and/or an attitudinal dynamic.