Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

[Raptorman]

Desperation looking for a loop hole. We are talking about contracts signed after Kirk signed his. Who are the above average very good passers that signed since Kirk that are making less?

Foles. The Super Bowl MVP is making 22 million per and less than half of his contract is guaranteed. The unprecedented nature of Cousins contract was the fully guaranteed part, btw. It leaves the Vikings in a horrible negotiating spot if he is good and they want to extend him, and in an even worse spot if he starts to struggle. There is a reason no team has followed suit.

I don't need to look for a loophole. Cousins isn't as good as Wentz and doesn't have near the potential. It is just a fact that a good portion of that 128 million will be paid this year and next.

Based on what? Not playoff games that's for sure.

[StumpHunter]

Foles. The Super Bowl MVP is making 22 million per and less than half of his contract is guaranteed. The unprecedented nature of Cousins contract was the fully guaranteed part, btw. It leaves the Vikings in a horrible negotiating spot if he is good and they want to extend him, and in an even worse spot if he starts to struggle. There is a reason no team has followed suit.

I don't need to look for a loophole. Cousins isn't as good as Wentz and doesn't have near the potential. It is just a fact that a good portion of that 128 million will be paid this year and next.

Based on what? Not playoff games that's for sure.

Stats, wins %, common sense?

[Raptorman]

Based on what? Not playoff games that's for sure.

Stats, wins %, common sense?

Let's go with that.
Stats. Per game

Code: Select all

	    	Passing							Rushing		
 Player         Cmp      Att     Yds     TD    Int      Sk     Yds      Att     Yds     TD
Kirk Cousins	23.0	34.6	262.9	1.7	0.8	1.9	14.2	2.1	6.4	0.2
Carson Wentz	23.1	36.2	253.8	1.8	0.7	2.3	14.4	3.6	13.6	0.1

So, statistically there isn't much difference. So let's got to wins.

Cousins. 34-37-2
Wentz 23-17

Of course, if we take out Cousins first three years when he was backup for Griffen......on a bad Redskins team. It read more like 32-30-1. But then he didn't have the advantage of a team that really wanted him. Or a top defense. It' amazing what one good year will do to your record when you only have 3 years of playing. 11-2 to 5-6 the next year. Wondering which year Wentz play 16 games again.

[CharVike]

Foles is a guy who, with the right cast around him can play really well(like Cousins). I think he will fail in Jacksonville, but I think Cousins would have too. Cousins is more durable and younger, but Foles has proven he can step up big in big games.

You asked for an example, Foles is as close as you can get to Cousins hitting the open market.

Now you give me an example of a QB getting a 3 year, fully guaranteed contract. Rodgers, Wentz and Wilson are all significantly better QBs than Cousins, but none of them got fully guaranteed deals. Big deals, longer deals, but not fully guaranteed.

The fully guaranteed contract thing is another loophole. Wentz has more guaranteed money regardless of fully guaranteed. The jury is out on whether Wentz is a better QB than Cousins. He didn't come back strong from his injury last year. Rodgers hasn't been special for a while now. Try to be happy with Cousins. He's who we got. He's an above average QB and a very good passer. Be happy. If Bradbury, Kline and Samia plus a much more healthy Elf can get the O Line up to average we can watch OUR MINNESOTA VIKINGS go a long ways this season.

Cousins is the best QB we have had since Fran. Every QB needs a cast around him. Even Brady. He threw 50 TDs when he had Moss. Hasn't happened since. We'll see what Foles does. He's not leading that joke team to a Super Bowl. We missed the playoffs and most point the finger at Cousins. We blew up all over. He lead us at GB against Rodgers but we had a bum FG kicker that missed a chip shot and a few other FGs. The Eagles made the Super Bowl without Wentz. They should be a shoe in with him. Guess what there not. He can't stay on the field. We had to get a legit QB. They cost the most money. Rodgers is the stupid one he should have said 60 million or see ya. That's a one man show and it looks like he's starting to show cracks and wasn't worth the CAP hit. Wilson won with one of the best defenses ever. Our D isn't close to that. So don't bring up Wilson as a great QB. Let him win an average D. Our team had many things go wrong and we were still in it until the last game. Cousins isn't our biggest problem the path getting to the show is. We have a tough road. Unlike Brady and the Pats who have a cakewalk. They can rest guys and develop players during the season. We can't do that. Even the worst team in our division has a competent QB who can blow you up.

[StumpHunter]

Stats, wins %, common sense?

Let's go with that.
Stats. Per game

Code: Select all

	    	Passing							Rushing		
 Player         Cmp      Att     Yds     TD    Int      Sk     Yds      Att     Yds     TD
Kirk Cousins	23.0	34.6	262.9	1.7	0.8	1.9	14.2	2.1	6.4	0.2
Carson Wentz	23.1	36.2	253.8	1.8	0.7	2.3	14.4	3.6	13.6	0.1

So, statistically there isn't much difference. So let's got to wins.

Cousins. 34-37-2
Wentz 23-17

Of course, if we take out Cousins first three years when he was backup for Griffen......on a bad Redskins team. It read more like 32-30-1. But then he didn't have the advantage of a team that really wanted him. Or a top defense. It' amazing what one good year will do to your record when you only have 3 years of playing. 11-2 to 5-6 the next year. Wondering which year Wentz play 16 games again.

Wentz' rookie season bring his averages down. You look at his play outside of his rookie year and it is significantly better than Cousins, even if you don't include Cousins first 3 years.

Not going to argue Cousins is more durable than Wentz. Cousins is a very durable QB.

[Pondering Her Percy]

He was a second year QB playing on a worse team, outside of RB, than Cousins. Worse line, worse receivers and a worse defense. That must mean the RB is more important than the QB, and we are paying the wrong guy 15% of the cap.

It's not just "a RB". He's one of the best RBs of all time and there isnt a fan out there, other than you, that's going to say that AP and that defense didnt carry the team. Or that Teddy did carry the team. Literally no one. Having a RB like Teddy did that year makes a WORLD of difference. Teddy has minimal weight on his shoulders. Cousins (and Bradford) had all the weight. It was solely up to them to make the offense go and it was too much IMO. It's too much for just about any QB. Rodgers couldnt even do it with his offense this year. It was never too much for Teddy because all he had to do was hand the ball off and hope his defense held up their end.

Bradford didnt have a RB to rely on. Cousins wasnt allowed to hand the ball off. Instead they were dropping back non-stop behind a bad OL. Teddy averaged 27 passes a game. Bradford had over 100 more passes in 2016 than Teddy did in 2016, in one less game. He averaged 37 passes a game. Cousins had over 150 more passes than Teddy did in 2015. He averaged 38 passes a game. That is a HUGE difference.

If Walsh doesn't miss a chip shot FG there is a good shot we are in the NFCCG. I have watched Cousins and Bradford in big games, and scoring 9 points against that D in that weather seems unlikely.

lol Teddy threw for 146 yards and 6.1 YPA in that game. Did you not see Teddy's "big games"? What big games did he perform well in? I would say his big games during the season and playoffs were Denver, KC, GB x 2, Seattle x 2 and Arizona. We went 2-5 in those games. Denver and Arizona were probably his two "best" passing games of the year but he was strip sacked to end both games due to holding the ball too long (both losses). KC he threw 2 INTs (won). He couldnt break 150 yards in either Seattle game, no TDs and 1 INT (both losses). The first GB game we were blown out and he gobbled up garbage time numbers (loss) and the 2nd GB game he threw for a horrid 99 yards (somehow won thanks to the defense).

Like I said, quit while you can with Teddy. You're defending a QB that struggled as a passer his first two years. Almost went backwards in 2015 as a passer. And when the game was on the line and he had to take control, he couldnt do it. He was carried by an elite RB and a good defense.

I know Teddy struggled in playing against starters with backups in a meaningless game in week 17, and I honestly hope that is who he is now. It would be great if the Saints gave up a 3rd and more cap than they can afford for a backup QB who is washed up. At the end of the day though, our QB played just as poorly with everything on the line, playing with starters, against a team that would have been better off if they lost to us. That is all on JDF too though, right?

I dont like looking at just a stat line but seriously? How can you possibly say Cousins or Bradford played just as poorly when the numbers are as follows:

2018 Cousins: 4,298 yards, 30 TDs, 10 INTs in 16 games

2016 Bradford: 3,877 yards, 20 TDs, 5 INTs in 15 games

2015 Teddy: 3,231, 14 TDs, 9 INTs in 16 games

Like if it was close, you might have an argument. But it's literally not even close. Teddy's 2015 season was very similar to Jacksonville's 2017 season. Carried by Leonard Fournette and a great defense. Fournette went for over 1,000 in 13 games. In no way, shape or form was it carried by Blake Bortles. So when you ask me, if RB is more important than a QB and so on....well from a team standpoint those years, yeah Adrian Peterson and Leonard Fournette were more valuable to their teams than Teddy or Bortles were. Neither QB performed at a high level. Peterson and Fournette were performing at a high level on a fairly consistent basis and were the heart and soul of their offense. Tell me when Bradford or Cousins had a guy that was the heart and soul of the offense? Pair a RB of their caliber (which I think Cook can be) with a much more talent QB than Teddy or Bortles, along with a good defense, that spells success. When you stray away from that like Flip did with this offense, it's a recipe for disaster. And Flip found that out the hard way.

To sit there like you do and continue to complain about Cousins but flat out ignore what Flip did last year blows my mind. How is an offense suppose to run when you have an OC that was as bad as he was?? An OC that panicked when we were down, an OC that refuses to run the ball, an OC that doesnt make adjustments, an OC that doesnt recognize what is and isnt working, etc. You want to claim how important the QB position is but you continue to forget that an offense cant run without an OC. And usually it has to be an average to above average one. EVERYTHING runs through your offensive coordinator. The QB isnt making the play calls. The QB isnt ignoring the run. The QB isnt refusing to make adjustments based on what the defense is doing. He can only do so much from a performance standpoint but you need to have consistency and balance from the guy that is running your offense. Flip provided NONE of that. And you, Stump, are just like Flip when it comes down to it.....refusing to recognize. You will always and forever live in the negative with Kirk Cousins and Sam Bradford.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Shaking....my.....head. I hope I’m reading this wrong and you didn’t really just use Foles as an example. Then follow it up by saying you think he’ll fail in Jacksonville just because even you don’t trust him and it covers your rear by saying it. Foles can succeed under very specific circumstances just like Keenum or many average to below average QBs could. But I’m sure you’ll always ride out his SB win after taking over an 11-2 team. I guess that makes it ok when he fails anywhere else he goes. Foles will follow the path of Keenum IMO and get a big contract just to follow it up by being stop gaps for teams and eventually make his way back to the bench. I personally don’t think Nick Foles is a good QB. I think he’s better than Keenum but I don’t put him in the top half of QBs in the nfl. Just a poor example if you ask me

I mean I would say after the 2017 season, Case was just outside the top 10. Maybe even sneak into the top 10. See there are some guys I would have taken him over that others might not. I would have taken Case over Newton and Winston. I'd even have taken him over some of these older QBs such as Manning, Brees, Rivers.

It's hard to say "yeah I would love to have Tom Brady over Case Keenum" back then because the guy is 40 and only has a few years left. Granted Brady is way better but Brady also isnt 30.

From a skill perspective, I would have ranked Case around 10-15. From a "who I want right now standpoint" I would have wanted then I would have ranked him inside the top 10 for sure.

Whaaaat?? I get what you're trying to say but it still baffles me. Brees or Brady, maybe even Rivers, win this team a SB within the 2018-2020 window. Which is the ultimate goal. So I dont care how old they are, as long as we get what we want. Favre nearly did that for us. You dont pass up on Drew Brees at age 40 for Case Keenum. That's absurd. Winston and Newton are garbage. As is Case. I wouldnt have any of the 3 anywhere near my top 10 of who I would want. I mean, in no specific order, I would take Cousins, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, Ben, Goff, Wentz, Watson, Luck, Carr, Alex Smith, Prescott, Stafford, Wilson and Garoppolo. I think Winston and Newton suck but they are still better than Keenum. If we were forced to either draft a QB or keep Keenum, I would draft one. I just listed about 20 QBs that I would rather have than Keenum not even counting rookies. There are a couple I would be on the fringe with like Mariota, Trubisky, Dalton, Flacco, etc. Who in god's name are you pulling off that list for Keenum that would put him inside "the top 10 for sure"?? You lost me here man and I'm starting to seriously question how you even look at a QB....

[Pondering Her Percy]

Cousins is a very durable QB.

Are you sure? I feel like pretty soon you're going to try and convince us he's not faithful to his wife too

[StumpHunter]

Cousins is a very durable QB.

Are you sure? I feel like pretty soon you're going to try and convince us he's not faithful to his wife too

I have consistently said Cousins is an above average QB who is a very good passer. What you decide to change that to in your head is out of my control.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Are you sure? I feel like pretty soon you're going to try and convince us he's not faithful to his wife too

I have consistently said Cousins is an above average QB who is a very good passer. What you decide to change that to in your head is out of my control.

lol by the looks of it, I'm not the only one thinking that way

[StumpHunter]

I mean I would say after the 2017 season, Case was just outside the top 10. Maybe even sneak into the top 10. See there are some guys I would have taken him over that others might not. I would have taken Case over Newton and Winston. I'd even have taken him over some of these older QBs such as Manning, Brees, Rivers.

It's hard to say "yeah I would love to have Tom Brady over Case Keenum" back then because the guy is 40 and only has a few years left. Granted Brady is way better but Brady also isnt 30.

From a skill perspective, I would have ranked Case around 10-15. From a "who I want right now standpoint" I would have wanted then I would have ranked him inside the top 10 for sure.

Whaaaat?? I get what you're trying to say but it still baffles me. Brees or Brady, maybe even Rivers, win this team a SB within the 2018-2020 window. Which is the ultimate goal. So I dont care how old they are, as long as we get what we want. Favre nearly did that for us. You dont pass up on Drew Brees at age 40 for Case Keenum. That's absurd. Winston and Newton are garbage. As is Case. I wouldnt have any of the 3 anywhere near my top 10 of who I would want. I mean, in no specific order, I would take Cousins, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, Ben, Goff, Wentz, Watson, Luck, Carr, Alex Smith, Prescott, Stafford, Wilson and Garoppolo. I think Winston and Newton suck but they are still better than Keenum. If we were forced to either draft a QB or keep Keenum, I would draft one. I just listed about 20 QBs that I would rather have than Keenum not even counting rookies. There are a couple I would be on the fringe with like Mariota, Trubisky, Dalton, Flacco, etc. Who in god's name are you pulling off that list for Keenum that would put him inside "the top 10 for sure"?? You lost me here man and I'm starting to seriously question how you even look at a QB....

I have to admit something, I plagiarized that post...

Where would you rank Case in terms of all starting QBs 1-32?

I would say just outside the top 10. Maybe even sneak into the top 10. See there are some guys I would take him over that others might not. I would take Case over Newton and Winston. I'd even take him over some of these older QBs such as Manning, Brees, Rivers.

It's hard to say "yeah I would love to have Tom Brady over Case Keenum" right now because the guy is 40 and only has a few years left. Granted Brady is way better but Brady also isnt 29.

From a skill perspective, I would rank Case around 10-15. From a "who I want right now standpoint" I would rank him inside the top 10 for sure.

If that makes sense lol

Now you can get credit for having this hot take.

[StumpHunter]

I have consistently said Cousins is an above average QB who is a very good passer. What you decide to change that to in your head is out of my control.

lol by the looks of it, I'm not the only one thinking that way

Yep, you have a guy who thinks the Bradford trade was a good one who seems to be of that opinion too. Raptorman has done a better job of actually arguing the points I am making.

[VikingsVictorious]

Let's go with that.
Stats. Per game

Code: Select all

	    	Passing							Rushing		
 Player         Cmp      Att     Yds     TD    Int      Sk     Yds      Att     Yds     TD
Kirk Cousins	23.0	34.6	262.9	1.7	0.8	1.9	14.2	2.1	6.4	0.2
Carson Wentz	23.1	36.2	253.8	1.8	0.7	2.3	14.4	3.6	13.6	0.1

So, statistically there isn't much difference. So let's got to wins.

Cousins. 34-37-2
Wentz 23-17

Of course, if we take out Cousins first three years when he was backup for Griffen......on a bad Redskins team. It read more like 32-30-1. But then he didn't have the advantage of a team that really wanted him. Or a top defense. It' amazing what one good year will do to your record when you only have 3 years of playing. 11-2 to 5-6 the next year. Wondering which year Wentz play 16 games again.

Wentz' rookie season bring his averages down. You look at his play outside of his rookie year and it is significantly better than Cousins, even if you don't include Cousins first 3 years.

Not going to argue Cousins is more durable than Wentz. Cousins is a very durable QB.

And his second season brought his average up. That is why it's an average. Maybe his third season will be the best representation of what to expect. 5-6 with very similar stats to Cousins.

[StumpHunter]

Wentz' rookie season bring his averages down. You look at his play outside of his rookie year and it is significantly better than Cousins, even if you don't include Cousins first 3 years.

Not going to argue Cousins is more durable than Wentz. Cousins is a very durable QB.

And his second season brought his average up. That is why it's an average. Maybe his third season will be the best representation of what to expect. 5-6 with very similar stats to Cousins.

Wentz had him beat in YPG, YPA, passer rating and TD % this past season. A season where he missed training camp.

His ceiling is higher and so is his floor. The two QBs are on completely different levels.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Whaaaat?? I get what you're trying to say but it still baffles me. Brees or Brady, maybe even Rivers, win this team a SB within the 2018-2020 window. Which is the ultimate goal. So I dont care how old they are, as long as we get what we want. Favre nearly did that for us. You dont pass up on Drew Brees at age 40 for Case Keenum. That's absurd. Winston and Newton are garbage. As is Case. I wouldnt have any of the 3 anywhere near my top 10 of who I would want. I mean, in no specific order, I would take Cousins, Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, Ben, Goff, Wentz, Watson, Luck, Carr, Alex Smith, Prescott, Stafford, Wilson and Garoppolo. I think Winston and Newton suck but they are still better than Keenum. If we were forced to either draft a QB or keep Keenum, I would draft one. I just listed about 20 QBs that I would rather have than Keenum not even counting rookies. There are a couple I would be on the fringe with like Mariota, Trubisky, Dalton, Flacco, etc. Who in god's name are you pulling off that list for Keenum that would put him inside "the top 10 for sure"?? You lost me here man and I'm starting to seriously question how you even look at a QB....

I have to admit something, I plagiarized that post...

I would say just outside the top 10. Maybe even sneak into the top 10. See there are some guys I would take him over that others might not. I would take Case over Newton and Winston. I'd even take him over some of these older QBs such as Manning, Brees, Rivers.

It's hard to say "yeah I would love to have Tom Brady over Case Keenum" right now because the guy is 40 and only has a few years left. Granted Brady is way better but Brady also isnt 29.

From a skill perspective, I would rank Case around 10-15. From a "who I want right now standpoint" I would rank him inside the top 10 for sure.

If that makes sense lol

Now you can get credit for having this hot take.

hahahhaa clearly you have nothing better to do today!! Granted, that was said a few days after our 2017 season ended. A year and a half later, realizing how bad Keenum really is and how he couldnt be trusted, yeah my opinion clearly changed. Since you're so bored in front of your computer today, why dont you look closer to when free agency hit because I pushed for us to let Case walk and go with Cousins. But either way, congrats Stump, you dug up a post from 500 days ago that doesnt match what I'm saying today. Like I said before, opinions change. There wasnt a Viking fan in the world rooting for Case Keenum during that time given how our season was going. But in the end, I wanted him gone. And I know you can find plenty of posts regarding that.