Lions @ Vikings Game Day DiscussionThread -- Week 17

[soflavike]

I'd rather have Ponder back than Frazier, and it pains me to say that.

Wow... that's harsh.

[Vette3434]

I'd rather have Ponder back than Frazier, and it pains me to say that.

[Hunter Morrow]

Snp out of it. Watch a fifty yarder Ponder game, Donovan McNabb and Josh Freeman.

Realize the guy is something like 17-27 as a DC and HC when his team does not have a lead.

He had 8 wins in two full seasons.Time to go. Take Musgrave and Williams with you, Frazier.

Thanks for the memories!

[PurpleKoolaid]

Snp out of it. Watch a fifty yarder Ponder game, Donovan McNabb and Josh Freeman.

Realize the guy is something like 17-27 as a DC and HC when his team does not have a lead.

He had 8 wins in two full seasons.Time to go. Take Musgrave and Williams with you, Frazier.

Thanks for the memories!

AMEN! Good riddance.

[Mothman]

Okay? and what about the other 3 I named??

Sigh... it's been pointed out over and over again that they were going to give Ponder his chance this season. The plan from the start was to give him 3 seasons. Spielman reinforced it over and over again and presumably, Frazier was on board with him. Cassel's not a huge upgrade anyway.

Carlson? They've been trying to get the ball to him since they signed him as a free agent and then, when they finally manage to do it in a few games, we're supposed to blame the coaches for not doing it all along? I just don't see it that way.

As I've already said, I don't think Cole is a significant upgrade at MLB but even if we were to agree that he is, we have NO IDEA what he looked like in practice or if that should have been evident to the coaching staff. They clearly knew he had something because they kept him around and again, the fact that a former 7th round pick like Coles stepped in and played pretty well can be seen as a positive for the coaches. They kept him. They prepared him. They put him in position to succeed and he delivered. Using him as a sort of stick to beat the coaches with is just second guessing. His performance @GB seemed to surprise everyone and to their credit, the coaches responded to it by keeping him on the field in the games that followed.

Also, Patterson and Rhodes started games because the ones above them got injured/had legal troubles....even if that didn't happen...what makes you think their roles would've expanded so quickly??

They're first round picks who were showing improvement.

That's not hard to do. Patterson isn't much different....averaging 13 snaps throughout the first 3-4 games?? Come on. Maybe his route running was questionable but they could have easily sent him on reverses and got him the ball in the open field much more than they did.

They could have but those plays weren't working very well earlier in the year. Maybe they were seeing things in Patterson's execution we didn't, seeing nuances Patterson needed to improve upon to start turning those plays into big gains. That's what coaches do.

I'm still unsure of why you're defending this coaching staff so much when they are about to get fired tomorrow.

I'm defending them because I think the second-guessing and the set of assumptions that lie behind the kind of criticism you're leveling at them here is unfair.

They're getting fired for obvious reasons. If they were good coaches, I would imagine we would have better seasons and keep them around. They can't get the job done and they're are many things that back that. Including the underutilization of players like I mentioned above.

I could put together a list of just as many reasons to suggest they're good coaches. Look, I'm not saying you're wrong on all counts here but there's a certain level of hubris in your argument that I just don't think is justified.

[mosscarter]

not sure if this was posted or not http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... er-is-out/

[Mothman]

That's five years of, "pretty much the same." Now that he has the pink slip looming he's suddenly flexible? I don't buy it.

That's fine. I'm not really asking you too, just pointing out that he's already been changing the thing you say he wouldn't change.

[Lash Man]

That's fine. I'm not really asking you too, just pointing out that he's already been changing the thing you say he wouldn't change. [/quote
Jim is obviously happy with a sub .500 coach that is a nice guy that his players don't quit , that is fine but some long time fans see this as wasted years with someone that just isn't going to take the Vikings to the next level , now we will see which side the Wilffs are on , either way it will be interesting for sure .

[Vette3434]

That's fine. I'm not really asking you too, just pointing out that he's already been changing the thing you say he wouldn't change. [/quote
Jim is obviously happy with a sub .500 coach that is a nice guy that his players don't quit , that is fine but some long time fans see this as wasted years with someone that just isn't going to take the Vikings to the next level , now we will see which side the Wilffs are on , either way it will be interesting for sure .

That's basically what it boils down to...accepting mediocrity or not.

[Iron Lion]

gg fellas

[Mothman]

Jim is obviously happy with a sub .500 coach that is a nice guy that his players don't quit , that is fine but some long time fans see this as wasted years with someone that just isn't going to take the Vikings to the next level , now we will see which side the Wilffs are on , either way it will be interesting for sure .

Bite me. Seriously, don't throw any more of that kind of BS my way. I'm sick of it and that's one shot too many. I am NOT happy with mediocrity from the Vikings. Just because I don't feel the juvenile need to refer to the coach as an idiot all the time, jump on the bashing bandwagon or make everything about picking sides, that doesn't mean I'm happy with bad seasons or willing to settle for a medicore team.

You can shove that garbage "about long time fans" where the sun doesn't shine too. I've spent over 4 decades rooting for the Vikes, supporting them and hoping they can win it all and since I'm not a moron, I can see this was a lost year. It's been easy to see for months.

I realize it's difficult for some people to understand why a fan might have a point of view more nuanced than "Coach X sucks" but just because I can actually see the good qualities in a coaching staff as well as the bad, that doesn't make me a blind supporter of that coaching staff and it doesn't make me the enemy.

[Lash Man]

Bite me. Seriously, don't throw any more of that kind of BS my way. I'm sick of it and that's one shot too many. I am NOT happy with mediocrity from the Vikings. Just because I don't feel the juvenile need to refer to the coach as an idiot all the time, jump on the bashing bandwagon or make everything about picking sides, that doesn't mean I'm happy with bad seasons or willing to settle for a medicore team.

You can shove that garbage "about long time fans" where the sun doesn't shine too. I've spent over 4 decades rooting for the Vikes, supporting them and hoping they can win it all and since I'm not a moron, I can see this was a lost year. It's been easy to see for months.

I realize it's difficult for some people to understand why a fan might have a point of view more nuanced than "Coach X sucks" but just because I can actually see the good qualities in a coaching staff as well as the bad, that doesn't make me a blind supporter of that coaching staff and it doesn't make me the enemy.

I see a lot more well thought out posts than " coach sux" etc.. and thanks for the bite me real classy guy

[Pondering Her Percy]

Carlson? They've been trying to get the ball to him since they signed him as a free agent and then, when they finally manage to do it in a few games, we're supposed to blame the coaches for not doing it all along? I just don't see it that way.

We've been trying to get him the ball?? Not even close!!! As I've said many times before....he was used as nothing but a check-down option/blocker when Rudolph was active. When he was in a starting role and ran the routes that the #1 TE did....he produced. I have zero clue why you think we were "trying" to get him the ball. Another assumption

When it comes to Cassel, yes I understand they were going to give Ponder a shot but they could have stopped that train a while ago instead of dragging it on. As for Cole, yes that was out of the blue. Either way....neither helped Frazier's cause.

They could have but those plays weren't working very well earlier in the year. Maybe they were seeing things in Patterson's execution we didn't, seeing nuances Patterson needed to improve upon to start turning those plays into big gains. That's what coaches do.

First of all, they ran with Patterson TWO times in 11 games so for you to say they "weren't working" makes zero sense. Bottom line is, they weren't smart enough to get him in open space and UTILIZE him like they should have. I really feel like you're trying everything you can to defend them but when you look at the numbers and the results in these situations, it's not helping your cause or Frazier's and his staffs. I mean now you're saying plays weren't working when that clearly wasn't the case. They've ran him 10 times in the last 4 games and we've all seen how that turns out.

I could put together a list of just as many reasons to suggest they're good coaches.

I would LOVE to see that list!!!! Frazier, Musgrave, and Williams....go!

[tmscr]

Bite me. Seriously, don't throw any more of that kind of BS my way. I'm sick of it and that's one shot too many. I am NOT happy with mediocrity from the Vikings. Just because I don't feel the juvenile need to refer to the coach as an idiot all the time, jump on the bashing bandwagon or make everything about picking sides, that doesn't mean I'm happy with bad seasons or willing to settle for a medicore team.

You can shove that garbage "about long time fans" where the sun doesn't shine too. I've spent over 4 decades rooting for the Vikes, supporting them and hoping they can win it all and since I'm not a moron, I can see this was a lost year. It's been easy to see for months.

I realize it's difficult for some people to understand why a fan might have a point of view more nuanced than "Coach X sucks" but just because I can actually see the good qualities in a coaching staff as well as the bad, that doesn't make me a blind supporter of that coaching staff and it doesn't make me the enemy.

I agree with you. You don't have to justify anything to anyone. You are entitled to your opinion. I think Frazier should stay. People want immediate results. Look at the roster. Not a super bowl roster, maybe not even really a playoff roster. I would put much more stock in what the players feel over what some anonymous person on a message board thinks.

[tmscr]

Funny how the final game of the season is the one where the vikings had a lead and finished a team off properly by grinding out the clock. Very positive note to end the season. Aside from last week, the last half of the season was very competitive and entertaining. I look forward to next year.