Vikings Message Board.Com

VikingLord wrote: You really think this board is becoming what the Usenet board became?

I've seen a few exchanges that were questionable, and quite frankly it didn't surprise as it's generally not hard to distinguish reasonable voices from unreasonable ones, but I don't think this place is even close to what alt.sports.mnvikings became at the end. Maybe at the beginning of the end, but not the end of the end.

Still, there are lessons to be learned from how that place evolved, and hopefully the nature of the controls here will be able to tamp down any flames that would otherwise result in a similar implosion.

I agree with you about Ponder BTW. He wasn't all bad, and I even said as much in the gameday thread. His first deep throw to Simpson was exactly what I had been wanting to see from him, and it was well-done. He made some decent throws and reads, and certainly the loss was not all on him by any stretch of the imagination.

With that said, I also noted that he tends to offset those good plays with ones that just make you want to run outside and find a bus to jump under. I do not think Ponder is going to make it through this season even if he just plays average. He's past the point where fans are going to give him any quarter. Every mistake is going to be magnified, and that's just the way it is. It's the result of a slow, but steady, diet of moments of gross incompetence. A few bites don't necessarily cause more than mild indigestion, but after one too many, nasty problems result. Ponder's play has reached that point for I think the majority of us now, and we just don't want to take any more bites. It would take a series of games where Ponder is making the right decisions the VAST majority of the time to even begin to tamp down the acid reflux. And for those who have more tolerance or objectivity, I'm sure the experience of that is going to seem unruly. But there is no way past it unless Ponder either starts playing better or Frazier sits his behind down for good. And then it begins for the next guy up...

Truth! I am with you where it concerns Ponder. The head-scratching moments are definitely in much greater supply than they should be at this point.

As for the tone of the message board, you are right, this is NOTHING like the end of the newsgroup. But the similarities with the beginning of the end are there. Hopefully we learn from the past.

Does anyone else find Ponder's post-game press conferences maddening? I mean, the guy stands up there with that neutral look on his face and that even tone. If the Vikes win and he does well, he occasionally smiles. If the Vikes lose and he sucks, he occasionally smiles. It's great and all that he doesn't get too high or too low, but what frustrates me about him is he doesn't seem to have any emotion at all.

Contrast that with Frazier. Frazier is pretty even as well, but after today's game he looked pissed off.

I know these guys are doing a job and all, but I have to believe succeeding at this level requires a bit more than just showing up and going through the motions.

VikingLord wrote:Does anyone else find Ponder's post-game press conferences maddening? I mean, the guy stands up there with that neutral look on his face and that even tone. If the Vikes win and he does well, he occasionally smiles. If the Vikes lose and he sucks, he occasionally smiles. It's great and all that he doesn't get too high or too low, but what frustrates me about him is he doesn't seem to have any emotion at all.

Contrast that with Frazier. Frazier is pretty even as well, but after today's game he looked pissed off.

I know these guys are doing a job and all, but I have to believe succeeding at this level requires a bit more than just showing up and going through the motions.

He looks emotionally drained to me. I know the feeling. Being an avid golfer, there are days where nothing goes right and after about 12 holes of trying to grind it out but still sucking without much of a glimmer of positive to give you some semblance of confidence it's so easy to get dejected. I've read many interviews that say that Ponder is extremely hard on himself and a criticism is he has a hard time letting go and moving on from a mistake. I see a guy that knows how much is/was on the line, the pressure of it all, how many people are counting on him and how he (in his mind) let them all down. I bet he feels like he is pretty much single-handedly responsible for the loss. I see a guy that's a professional and is emotionally strong enough not to just break down in front of the media and say what he really thinks, in a way he really wants to say it. But you can kinda tell, especially at the end, how angry he is just talking about this. He's probably even more frustrated with himself than anyone here.

John_Viveiros wrote:I was thinking of lots of things to say, but maybe the best advice is to ignore the thread if you don't like it.

It's not about the thread, or the venting, John. I won't go into further detail because The Breeze, BGM, CalVike and others have already covered what I was talking about nicely (and better than I could have myself).

VikingLord wrote:You really think this board is becoming what the Usenet board became?

I've seen a few exchanges that were questionable, and quite frankly it didn't surprise as it's generally not hard to distinguish reasonable voices from unreasonable ones, but I don't think this place is even close to what alt.sports.mnvikings became at the end. Maybe at the beginning of the end, but not the end of the end.

I meant it was becoming like alt.sports.mnvikings at the beginning of the end and that it's on a path that could easily lead to the same mess that newsgroup was at the end. It's not there yet and we shouldn't let it get there. As you said, there are lessons to be learned from how that place evolved (or devolved).

I have to say, I'm encouraged by the number of responses to my post from people who "get it" so thanks to all of you for giving me hope.

I agree with you about Ponder BTW. He wasn't all bad, and I even said as much in the gameday thread. His first deep throw to Simpson was exactly what I had been wanting to see from him, and it was well-done. He made some decent throws and reads, and certainly the loss was not all on him by any stretch of the imagination.

With that said, I also noted that he tends to offset those good plays with ones that just make you want to run outside and find a bus to jump under.

That's a good description of it. I saw a highlight of the second interception (the lob) and it's the kind of play that must have made Leslie Frazier want to seek out the team bus too.

I do not think Ponder is going to make it through this season even if he just plays average. He's past the point where fans are going to give him any quarter. Every mistake is going to be magnified, and that's just the way it is. It's the result of a slow, but steady, diet of moments of gross incompetence. A few bites don't necessarily cause more than mild indigestion, but after one too many, nasty problems result. Ponder's play has reached that point for I think the majority of us now, and we just don't want to take any more bites. It would take a series of games where Ponder is making the right decisions the VAST majority of the time to even begin to tamp down the acid reflux. And for those who have more tolerance or objectivity, I'm sure the experience of that is going to seem unruly. But there is no way past it unless Ponder either starts playing better or Frazier sits his behind down for good. And then it begins for the next guy up...

I don't envy that next guy up.
I came to the same conclusions you expressed above a while ago and I agree that it will take a series of impressive performances for Ponder to even begin changing minds and securing his job.

BGM wrote:I'm with Jim. This message board, and the newsgroup before the trolls rolled in, was well-known for its camaraderie and insightful, knowledgeable posters.

Yeah the sweet spot for us newsgroup guys was a good period in online posting/thought sharing. At that point we had many more regulars than newcomers. But hey, Al Gore had barely invented the Internet at that point so the noise level was pretty low.
I honestly don't mind the "[fill in the blank] sucks!" opinions here nowadays, but my reluctance to participate much any more revolves around the QUANTITY of "[fill in the blank] sucks!" posts/posters. The vast majority of these folks have zero thoughts on how to make things REALISTICALLY better, which is about as tiresome for me as anything.
I can effectively ignore many of them, but at some point the waves crash in higher and higher and it's easier to visit here once every other week.
I miss a lot that way, I know.

I appreciate the "even-keeled" responses for Ponder. What some may be referring to (usually in perjorative terms) as "excuses" for Ponder, I have truly come to appreciate. I have tried to keep my own comments more neutral (less so in the gameday threads as I look at those as more of a "bull-session" during live action). This is not meant as an "attack" against those who question Ponder's ability. I have had some of those very same questions and internalize many of my "knee-jerk" reactions to get rid of Ponder when he has a bad game. Believe me, yesterday when the "pop-fly" pass was thrown for an INT, I was ready for "anyone but Ponder" at QB. It is the more neutral posts that remind me (or me reminding someone else) that Ponder did have a few (admittedly few, but a few nonetheless) good plays. Reminding me of this fact keeps me from developing a stagnant homogeneous mindset that Ponder has no QB talent whatsoever. If I have offended anyone in the course of my postings I will apologize. That has truly never been my intent.

To bring this back onto topic, however, I will discuss Ponder's next step(s) with some observations:

1) He had one accurate deep pass. While the second was completed (kudos) it was really (IMHO) more of an outstanding effort by "Stonehands" (Who had an outstanding game yesterday - BTW - So I use the term almost "affectionately" as Featherstone caught the final touchdown pass in the movie ) than Ponder's accuracy. Ponder has to be more accurate. After a 78 yard run by Peterson I expect my QB (Ponder, Cassel, MBT, Spergeon Wynn, or whoever) to be able to hit his receiver on play action pass. Ponder has to step up here.

2) He has to stay in the pocket. Yes, I know our blocking is/was poor. I'd rather see him take sacks in the pocket rather than take off running. I know that seems counter-intuitive, but how many times will he miss an open receiver because he sees an opening to run and takes the sure 6 yards rather than looking for an open man which might yield him 10+? If nothing else, we can really determine how bad the OL is. If he gets 3+ seconds to throw, Ponder need to find the open man quicker.

3) Learn how to take the sack. 2 of the worst plays yesterday (the INT and the fumbled hand-off) were a result of him not wanting to take the sack. Had he just taken the sack we'd have been in better shape. (Although I'll freely admit to my detriment that had he taken the sack outside the "tackle box" I'd have likely complained of his stupidity for not "throwing it away". But the premise still is there: If a play is going south, just "eat it" and retool for the next down.

4) Read defenses. Ponder is not a Rookie. He has, for all practical purposes, 2 years of NFL experience under his belt. He should be coming into his own, and recognizing defensive sets to audible into (perhaps) a more effective play. I'm not expecting him to be Peyton Manning, but an audible once in a while would let me know he's at least making a pre-read before the snap.

5) 3rd down conversions. This offense is what it is. I don't care if he has a 4.2 yards per pass average as long as he has a "decent" 3rd down conversion rate. What I mean is that if he throws 6 passes, all on 3rd down, that are only 4 yards, but he completes 80% of them, that is outstanding. The problem is: he is more likely to see 3rd and 10 rather than 3rd and 4. My expectation is still the same: to see improvement on 3rd down passes. (Yesterday's performance speaks for itself). AFAIC this deep pass stuff is "smoke and mirrors." For better or worse we are a WCO team. Ponder needs to have a good 3rd down conversion rate. Period.


I was disappointed in yesterdays performance as a whole (I would like to adopt Harrison Smith as a son, however - I absolutely love the way this kid plays ) and saw the QB's performance as a contributing factor in the loss. (Not the sole factor, but a big part of it). Anyone can have a bad game. Ponder has not had great ones in pre-season, and yesterday's performance seemed to be an extension of that. He's got to get it together (in year 3) and soon. He also has to get consistent. Jackson could give us a good game every 5 games or so too. but he was (correctly) cut after it became apparent, he was never going to consistently give us good performances. Ponder has a good opportunity to change everyone's mind. If he can go into a hostile Soldier Field next week and hit all 5 points enumerated above, he will come away with a win and have me "flip-flopping" on whether or nor I think he is our long term answer.

80 PurplePride 84 wrote: In Ponder's defense (and I'll probably get labeled an apologist for this ) It looked like he was trying to throw it out of bounds but then his arm got hit as he was throwing it. No QB is that bad.

That's what happened.

The Breeze wrote: That's what happened.

I agree. No argument. It looked to me like he could have (and perhaps should have) thrown it away before the defensive lineman got that close too him. It appeared (IIRC) that he was well outside the tackle box at that time.

He had two nice throws to Simpson. Jennings one highlight was making a great adjustment to a poorly thrown ball. Ponder played horribly yesterday and we should be concerned as fans.

I was a bit dismayed not to see some Jarius Wright action. Wonder how many snaps he got.

dead_poet wrote:I was a bit dismayed not to see some Jarius Wright action. Wonder how many snaps he got.

I was wondering about that as well. I still haven't seen the game but I read this morning that Patterson barely saw the field on offense and I heard nothing about Wright during the radio broadcast yesterday. Maybe I just missed it.

Patterson, inexperienced or not, needs to be a bigger part of the offense. He has genuine playmaking ability and taking advantage of that should be a significant consideration in the game plan every week.

Patterson nearly scored on a WR screen but was tripped up inside the 10. Next play was the screen to AP for a TD

I agree that this board has gotten pretty bad in the past offseason. BGM’s post bringing up some of the long time great posters really brought back some good memories, it is a shame so many of those guys are gone, although I can see why they want to leave. Not sure what the mods can do about it, if they go on a “banhammer” binger that has negatives as well. My guess is perhaps some of it has to do with popularity more than anything else.

I agree with Jim also. At this point we’ve anal exam’ed the game and Ponder’s mistakes. First wasn’t what we wanted to see out of him. So to Jim’s point, what is the point now besides venting and having an online temper tantrum? Regardless, guys are going to do it.

It is too bad really. I think there is a wealth of discussion that is being had about Musgrave’s play calling as well as analysis of the DL. Instead it is all Ponder all the time. Just too bad.

Mothman wrote:Patterson, inexperienced or not, needs to be a bigger part of the offense. He has genuine playmaking ability and taking advantage of that should be a significant consideration in the game plan every week.

The "problem" if you can call it that, is that with Simpson's "big" game, I'm not sure how you justify Patterson replacing him just yet. Because you're sure as heck not going to take out Jennings.

I have to say, though, if Simpson can continue this (and not make any bone-headed plays, and possibly stop showboating after every single catch), which I doubt he can or will, the receivers have the chance to be pretty solid unit for the first time in years. Especially as Patterson continues to emerge.

Next step for Plunder? How about the door.