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Mothman wrote:A very interesting perspective from CBS writer Clark Judge:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/clark ... -after-all

I don't wholly agree with it but I find myself agreeing more than I would have thought a few months ago.

Yes. Here's a quote from the article you linked:

"People close to the Vikings tell me Harvin's not a bad guy; that he's ultra-competitive and wants the football -- which, basically, makes him like most wide receivers. What makes him different is that, according to those same people, he doesn't believe that in Christian Ponder he has the quarterback to make him a premier player."

This rings true to me. The last part has been my speculation for some time, as unpopular as it was with some folks on this board. I hope I'm wrong, because I think Ponder deserves one more year and I really do not want to lose Percy.

Texas Vike wrote:
Yes. Here's a quote from the article you linked:

"People close to the Vikings tell me Harvin's not a bad guy; that he's ultra-competitive and wants the football -- which, basically, makes him like most wide receivers. What makes him different is that, according to those same people, he doesn't believe that in Christian Ponder he has the quarterback to make him a premier player."

This rings true to me. The last part has been my speculation for some time, as unpopular as it was with some folks on this board. I hope I'm wrong, because I think Ponder deserves one more year and I really do not want to lose Percy.

You're not the only one who thought that. In fact, I think that is what Harvin was yelling at Frazier about in the Seattle game after Ponder pitched a simple screen into the turf. And like you, I doubted Ponder as well (and I still do).

I'm sure Harvin, and pretty much anyone with a brain in their head, wondered why the Vikings couldn't generate more passing yardage given AD really forced defenses to play the run. The logical place to look was the QB, and I can totally understand why Harvin would go off given how competitive he is and how poorly Ponder was playing through that losing stretch.

It's hard to say if Harvin's opinion of Ponder changed at all during the team's late run. If it did, odds are good that Frazier and Harvin moved past any hard feelings and the main obstacle to Harvin's happy return will be a contract extension. If not, I think both sides will seek a trade, which is a shame because it implies Frazier, Spielman, and the Vikings have truly hitched their wagons to Ponder.

Texas Vike wrote:Yes. Here's a quote from the article you linked:

"People close to the Vikings tell me Harvin's not a bad guy; that he's ultra-competitive and wants the football -- which, basically, makes him like most wide receivers. What makes him different is that, according to those same people, he doesn't believe that in Christian Ponder he has the quarterback to make him a premier player."

This rings true to me. The last part has been my speculation for some time, as unpopular as it was with some folks on this board. I hope I'm wrong, because I think Ponder deserves one more year and I really do not want to lose Percy.

That may be a factor but I think this is probably about money and ego more than anything else. Pay him enough and he'll come back. Pay him enough and give him the ball enough and he'll probably hug Ponder and walk around with a big freakin' smile on his face. When he said his unhappiness wasn't about money last summer, that probably meant it was about money.

If Harvin really has an issue with Ponder then as a veteran player, I sure hope Harvin was encouraging Ponder, approaching him about putting in extra time together, working hard to develop the kind of chemistry that could make them both better, etc. Somehow I doubt that happened though...

VikingLord wrote:It's hard to say if Harvin's opinion of Ponder changed at all during the team's late run. If it did, odds are good that Frazier and Harvin moved past any hard feelings and the main obstacle to Harvin's happy return will be a contract extension. If not, I think both sides will seek a trade, which is a shame because it implies Frazier, Spielman, and the Vikings have truly hitched their wagons to Ponder.

It won't be a shame if that turns out to be a good idea.

When he said his unhappiness wasn't about money last summer, that probably meant it was about money.

I thought originally it was reported as being about Musgrave and his offense? Not that reports can be trusted but that's what I remember reading.

Demi wrote: I thought originally it was reported as being about Musgrave and his offense? Not that reports can be trusted but that's what I remember reading.

Neither Harvin or the Vikings ever said (specifically) what it was about but Harvin did say it wasn't about money. There was speculation that it was about Musgrave's offense and Harvin's role in it but as usual, we never got a definitive answer from anyone in a position to know.

Mothman wrote:A very interesting perspective from CBS writer Clark Judge:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/clark ... -after-all

I don't wholly agree with it but I find myself agreeing more than I would have thought a few months ago.

I don't agree with the article at all. As soon as he started in with the dribble about the Vikings being better last year without Harvin, he lost me. The Vikings would have been better and maybe gone further in the playoffs if Harvin had been healthy and playing with Peterson on the team.

AFAIC, this writer is another indignant hack with his panties in a bunch over matters he actually knows nothing about.

Interesting that all of has transpired favors Harvin's camp in that it is creating urgency for action. I have to think that might not be a coincidence with reporters using annonymous sources. I think this will come down to what the Vikes are willing to pay vs. what Harvin thinks he is worth.

Mothman wrote: It won't be a shame if that turns out to be a good idea.

When would it ever be a good idea for a franchise to hitch its wagon to a single player? Didn't we all learn that with the Walker trade?

I said it before and I'll say it again - Ponder looks to me like a poor man's Brad Johnson. He might put together a few decent games and even play consistently competently at some point during his career, but I still have real trouble seeing a difference maker at any point in the future in Ponder. Harvin, on the other hand, has been making his presence consistently felt every year he's been in the league, and his impact has grown over that time to the point where he was in the MVP discussion last year (on top of an Offensive Rookie of the Year award after his first season).

So if Frazier, Spielman, and whoever else has a say in matters would really prefer to go with Ponder over Harvin if it comes to that, all I can say is good luck.

Now he is wanting more money when he can't stay healthy..

Get rid of him and get a good pick for him

VikingLord wrote:When would it ever be a good idea for a franchise to hitch its wagon to a single player? Didn't we all learn that with the Walker trade?

How are those two things even comparable? The Vikings gave up one draft pick for Ponder, not a batch of them and 5 players. Are you talking about cost or commitment because committing to developing a QB has worked out well for many, many teams.

I said it before and I'll say it again - Ponder looks to me like a poor man's Brad Johnson. He might put together a few decent games and even play consistently competently at some point during his career, but I still have real trouble seeing a difference maker at any point in the future in Ponder. Harvin, on the other hand, has been making his presence consistently felt every year he's been in the league, and his impact has grown over that time to the point where he was in the MVP discussion last year (on top of an Offensive Rookie of the Year award after his first season).

So if Frazier, Spielman, and whoever else has a say in matters would really prefer to go with Ponder over Harvin if it comes to that, all I can say is good luck.

I'd say the same and I'd mean it because a GM and a coach can't let someone like Harvin dictate significant personnel decisions for them. The inmates can't be allowed to run the asylum. There's no way Frazier or Spielman could command the respect of the team if they let Harvin decide who can play QB for the Vikings.

This isn't about Ponder anyway and it shouldn't be made about Ponder. It's about Harvin. Whatever issues and demands he has are his issues and demands.

losperros wrote:
I don't agree with the article at all. As soon as he started in with the dribble about the Vikings being better last year without Harvin, he lost me. The Vikings would have been better and maybe gone further in the playoffs if Harvin had been healthy and playing with Peterson on the team.

AFAIC, this writer is another indignant hack with his panties in a bunch over matters he actually knows nothing about.

LOL! Some of it reads that way and while the Vikes passing game certainly wasn't better without Harvin, they didn't seem to lose much in terms of winning and losing which is why I thought Judge had a point. I wrote a few days ago that I don't see Harvin as indispensable, although he has the kind of talent it would be nice to keep on the team. Here's the part of the column that was most interesting to me:

Better yet, they know they can win as a team, which might be the bigger issue here. If Harvin complains every time a Ponder pass goes awry or wants to challenge the head coach in front of teammates or is eager to launch a public campaign for a new contract then he needs to find another area code.

Which is another way of saying hasta la vista, baby.

Percy Harvin is good player. A very good player. But he is not a great player. Good players are in abundance in the NFL. Great players are not. You cherish great players because they are reliable and dependable. You keep the good ones until or unless they become a distraction.

Then you get rid of them.

There's an important "if" in there and I'm not convinced Harvin's the kind of malcontent described in the second sentence of that quote but, as Judge wrote, if Harvin is that kind of player the Vikings know they can win as a team, without him, and it might be wise to trade him.

Oh well, all we can do is wait to see what happens. Even though trade rumors are now widespread in the media, we didn't really learn much yesterday. It's not news that Harvin wants a new contract and given his brief walkout last year, it's not exactly startling to see a report saying he plans to hold out if he doesn't get that contract. It's disappointing but not startling. As mansquatch wrote above, this will probably come down to what the Vikes are willing to pay vs. what Harvin thinks he is worth.

I would also dissagree on the assessment that PH is not a great player, only a good one. Harvin is one of only two guys on the current roster that is a threat every time he touches the ball. He is a major matchup problem for defenders and he has the ability in space to make people miss, turning nothing into something. That is rarified talent. Add to it his ability on Kick Returns and you have, as I said before, what the Bears dreamed of Devin Hester becoming. I don’t think that can be overstated. You have one guy who makes your kickoff return team a threat every play, every game, plus makes your passing game far more effective. One guy.

IMO, he is worth overpaying. I get all the conservative stuff about the cap, etc. Fine. This is a special player that they are going to have to get out the checkbook for. PH might be moody, greedy, and coming off as a spoiled child, but he is one of a rare breed in terms of NFL talent. Like it or not, that means he gets to play by different rules. The reality is if the Vikings do not step up to the plate, then someone else will.

IMO, trading him is a colossal mistake. Get the extension done now or else come 2014 FA, there will be a massive bidding war for his services.

mansquatch wrote:I would also dissagree on the assessment that PH is not a great player, only a good one. Harvin is one of only two guys on the current roster that is a threat every time he touches the ball. He is a major matchup problem for defenders and he has the ability in space to make people miss, turning nothing into something. That is rarified talent. Add to it his ability on Kick Returns and you have, as I said before, what the Bears dreamed of Devin Hester becoming. I don’t think that can be overstated. You have one guy who makes your kickoff return team a threat every play, every game, plus makes your passing game far more effective. One guy.

IMO, he is worth overpaying. I get all the conservative stuff about the cap, etc. Fine. This is a special player that they are going to have to get out the checkbook for. PH might be moody, greedy, and coming off as a spoiled child, but he is one of a rare breed in terms of NFL talent. Like it or not, that means he gets to play by different rules. The reality is if the Vikings do not step up to the plate, then someone else will.

IMO, trading him is a colossal mistake. Get the extension done now or else come 2014 FA, there will be a massive bidding war for his services.

I totally agree. There is NO one in this draft, especially offensively, that compares to the dynamics that Harvin brings to a football field. As a matter of fact maybe no one in the entire NFL. I hope like hell the Vikes can extend him but if not they need to get a whole lot of players or draft picks in return. I would also suggest that they trade him out of the division and better yet out of the conference if they can not redo his contract. I would hate facing him.

Mothman wrote: LOL! Some of it reads that way and while the Vikes passing game certainly wasn't better without Harvin, they didn't seem to lose much in terms of winning and losing which is why I thought Judge had a point. I wrote a few days ago that I don't see Harvin as indispensable, although he has the kind of talent it would be nice to keep on the team. Here's the part of the column that was most interesting to me:
There's an important "if" in there and I'm not convinced Harvin's the kind of malcontent described in the second sentence of that quote but, as Judge wrote, if Harvin is that kind of player the Vikings know they can win as a team, without him, and it might be wise to trade him.

The above quote from Judge didn't impress me at all, Jim, mostly due to his incoherent reasoning.

BTW, how does Judge know that Harvin complains "every time" a Ponder pass goes awry? We're actually expected to believe that if Ponder is off target, then Harvin will automatically run over to Frazier and complain? No ####? How many times did that happen? Maybe once that we know about? So Judge has to use an extreme exaggeration to make a supposed point, one that is inaccurate? Wow, what a debater!

Who knows? Just maybe someone should complain about Ponder's passes going awry. It's not like I wasn't complaining about it from time to time in front of my TV set. Admittedly, I didn't get to see as many games this last season as I would have liked to but I saw enough to witness moments where Ponder was far from sharp. I doubt that Harvin was complaining about it all the time, as Judge confabulated, but maybe Judge should consider that there were other problems with the passing game aside from Harvin's temper.

In fact, I'm downright concerned about the Vikings passing game if Harvin leaves. Even if the team does acquire another talented receiver or two, they'd still be better off with Harvin out on the field as well. Judge appears to not comprehend that, though I'm not surprised.

Oh, and in case Judge hadn't noticed, Harvin is a great player, not just a good one. Harvin does stand out among receivers because of his skills, which is why he was a major force on the field earlier in the season. Also, the Vikings did win some games before Harvin got injured and he was a large part of the reason why.