Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote: I don't think of it as fear but as a lack of composure. Perhaps that's splitting hairs...

Another thing to keep in mind is that Ponder's offensive line wasn't very good to begin with and he was holding the ball FOREVER it seemed. You can't stay in and keep taking shots when your line is letting guys through.

At some point you have to protect yourself if the offensive line isn't getting the job done and unfortenately for Ponder that happened during his first couple seasons. I feel like it really disrupted his learning process.

Luckily Teddy will have a much better offensive line protecting him and even if he didn't I think he'll get the ball out faster. It's easier to take hits if it's not every other play.

Slick Rick wrote: Right, but even those guys who don't do anything flashy become some of your better QBs. Tom Brady never did anything special. What he was always good at was taking care of the ball, handling all sorts of pressure, and physically just being able to dial it up when throwing down the middle. Brady had several years where he wasn't anything special as far as his numbers went, he passed for 3,500 yards and 25-30 TDs every year which is very good but not really what I'd consider elite. He eventually put up some of the best numbers that anyone's ever witnessed when they really built the offense around setting him up, and that's the way it can be with any QB like that.

Another guy who comes to mind for not having great numbers, but being recognized as being great is Joe Montana. Again, takes care of the ball, calm under pressure, and never really made any mistakes in big situations. Teddy has the right mentality and plenty of talent, and I think that he definitely has a chance to be considered one of the elites at some point. No one's handing it to him right now, but there's no reason he can't. As soon as he's up to speed, he's going to have a lot of talent around him to work with.

I agree completely. And the difference between those guys and the guy I used to compare, Matt Ryan, is rings. The only thing making those guys elite is their rings, or else they'd still be viewed as just solid quarterbacks. Matt Ryan is not elite, but if he had a few rings...He would be. It's funny how it works, but that's the point. You can win with guys like Teddy. The media just makes it seem like you can't or that it's really really hard to. Rubbish!

@ Cliff

You make a solid point about the O-line. I keep reading that the current line is above average....Ijust don't buy it yet.

I think of David Carr getting sacked 75 times his rookie year.....then I think of all the hurries and hits he took on top of that and it's no wonder his career turned out the way it did.

I know the majority of people here want to chalk it all up to Ponder just not having the vibe, and there are some issues that support that...but there is a lot to be said for a guy being in the 'right' situation to begin with.
This line nearly got Favre killed more than once and they didn't do anything to protect McRib, which is why CP got thrown out there to begin with.

I think all the elements, from better line play, Turner's scheme, vastly better WR corp and a QB with more raw composure, equals a significantly better situation.

It's good to be excited for this team after last years debacle~

This line nearly got Favre killed more than once and they didn't do anything to protect McRib, which is why CP got thrown out there to begin with.

This line?

PacificNorseWest wrote: This line?

not quite lol.....I mean the quality of our O-line has been less than stellar since Childress got hired.

It's definitely better and I like the Yankey pick. I'm hopeful it's a move in a direction toward more dynamic atheletes along the line over the gigantic sloths.

The Breeze wrote:@ Cliff

You make a solid point about the O-line. I keep reading that the current line is above average....Ijust don't buy it yet.

I think of David Carr getting sacked 75 times his rookie year.....then I think of all the hurries and hits he took on top of that and it's no wonder his career turned out the way it did.

I know the majority of people here want to chalk it all up to Ponder just not having the vibe, and there are some issues that support that...but there is a lot to be said for a guy being in the 'right' situation to begin with.
This line nearly got Favre killed more than once and they didn't do anything to protect McRib, which is why CP got thrown out there to begin with.

I think all the elements, from better line play, Turner's scheme, vastly better WR corp and a QB with more raw composure, equals a significantly better situation.

Agreed.

Ponder doesn't appear to have "the vibe" but he faced an almost perfect storm of difficult circumstances to start his career. As a rookie, he didn't get the benefit of an offseason program with the team and was thrown into action sooner than planned behind the sub-par o-line you mentioned above. He was playing on a team that was struggling mightily on defense so the offense was under pressure to score and score often and ended up trailing quite a bit. That was a license for teams to pin their ears back and attack the rookie QB. He didn't have a great set of weapons to throw to either, although he did have the benefit of a good running game. His circumstances gradually improved over the next two seasons but you have to wonder how much damage that first year did to him. Maybe it didn't make any real difference at all but it was certainly a less-than-desirable situation for a rookie QB. Heck, he also had the "reach" label on him so he was practically losing support before he took the field!

If Bridgewater starts, he should have more going for him with the current offensive roster and hopefully, he'll have the support of a better defense too.

It's good to be excited for this team after last years debacle~

Indeed. I hope we aren't saying the same thing next year!

I do give Ponder a little credit or leeway for
His start no off season coming in to replace Mcflabb
experiment. The offense line was worse and the
recievers were worse. Ponder to me didn't study
or work to get better, at all. when he was benched
he would sit off be himself pouting. I just want
him gone from the Vikings.

808 makes a great point about how a decisive QB makes a line better. There is also the factor of an indecisive one causing the line to become unmotivated.

Definitely line performance and QB capability are not mutually exclusive....it's a unit and it all has to come together through trust.

As for the current lines grades....I'm not a fan of Loadholt as a pass blocker. Too many times on critical downs his guy goes right by him basically untouched. Maybe (hopefully) that's mitigated by a composed QB who can see the whole field.

And I seriously have no idea why Johnson is on this team, other than they haven't made a real concerted effort to replace him until this draft.

The Breeze wrote:808 makes a great point about how a decisive QB makes a line better. There is also the factor of an indecisive one causing the line to become unmotivated.

Definitely line performance and QB capability are not mutually exclusive....it's a unit and it all has to come together through trust.

As for the current lines grades....I'm not a fan of Loadholt as a pass blocker. Too many times on critical downs his guy goes right by him basically untouched. Maybe (hopefully) that's mitigated by a composed QB who can see the whole field.

And I seriously have no idea why Johnson is on this team, other than they haven't made a real concerted effort to replace him until this draft.

Yankey will unseat him. That's my hope anyways. Might be the best pick beyond the first round. Sully's recovery from micro-fracture will be key too.

Mothman wrote:
Ponder doesn't appear to have "the vibe" but he faced an almost perfect storm of difficult circumstances to start his career. As a rookie, he 1) didn't get the benefit of an offseason program with the team and 2)was thrown into action sooner than planned behind the 3)sub-par o-line you mentioned above. He was 4)playing on a team that was struggling mightily on defense so the offense was under 5)pressure to score and score often and 6)ended up trailing quite a bit. That was a license for 7)teams to pin their ears back and attack the rookie QB. He 8)didn't have a great set of weapons to throw to either, although he did have the benefit of a good running game. His circumstances gradually improved over the next two seasons but 9) you have to wonder how much damage that first year did to him. Maybe it didn't make any real difference at all but it was certainly a less-than-desirable situation for a rookie QB. Heck, 10) he also had the "reach" label on him so he was practically losing support before he took the field!

ROFL. 10 excuses for Ponder in one paragraph.

Webbfann wrote:

ROFL. 10 excuses for Ponder in one paragraph.

It sounds as if you do not know enough about football or are blinded by "Ponder hate" to realize that those are all factual reasons for a lot of his shortcomings.

The Breeze wrote:not quite lol.....I mean the quality of our O-line has been less than stellar since Childress got hired.

What about since he was fired? That was nearly half of a decade ago now...

It's definitely better and I like the Yankey pick. I'm hopeful it's a move in a direction toward more dynamic atheletes along the line over the gigantic sloths.

It isn't just Yankey, we've got 4 of 5 of the OL slots covered by solid players. Kalil was the worst of those 4 in '13, but I'd still consider him the best overall offensive lineman on our team which leaves Charlie Johnson as the weak link. Replace him and put a QB who can make a quick decision (and properly extend plays when the rush overwhelms the OL) and we should have one of the more formidable units in the league. I think Bridgewater fits perfectly, and whether it's Tiny, Yankey, Vlad, or Baca at LG we should see an improvement somehow from that position.

With that said, Johnson might not even be that much of a problem. I know people are saying that having a decisive QB (I think Matt Cassel is very decisive, and the OL looked noticeably better with him leading the offensive) helps, and I agree 100%, but what about just having a terrible play caller? Your plays are predictable, your line is predictable, run/pass mix is predictable, maybe your rhythm is predictable, and there's a lot more that goes into it. When people say that we were OK on offense last year, I attribute a lot of that to AP being AP. Our passing game was so bad. I think we had about 4 decent games passing the ball all year, and we were just going 3-and-out way too much. You could even argue that our defense not being able to get off of the field was pretty terrible for our offense, so it all kind of matters. You all know how the old saying goes, "when it rains, it pours". It was raining and pouring all over the place on this team last year.

Purple bruise wrote: It sounds as if you do not know enough about football or are blinded by "Ponder hate" to realize that those are all factual reasons for a lot of his shortcomings.

Since when do factual reasons count around here? They only count for one person. The others have to suck it up and be better prepared.

The Breeze wrote:808 makes a great point about how a decisive QB makes a line better. There is also the factor of an indecisive one causing the line to become unmotivated.

I imagine it affects the opposing defense as well. It would be interesting to do a study see if one of the reasons Ponder was sacked more is because opposing teams brought additional pressure more (the idea being that he didn't respond to it well so why not keep it coming?).

As for the current lines grades....I'm not a fan of Loadholt as a pass blocker. Too many times on critical downs his guy goes right by him basically untouched.

I agree. He's a good run blocker but those breakdowns in pass protection happen too often (and sometimes in critical moments.

Purple bruise wrote: It sounds as if you do not know enough about football or are blinded by "Ponder hate" to realize that those are all factual reasons for a lot of his shortcomings.

Valid excuses are still excuses. It doesn't mean that the poor play in between didn't happen. I think some people forget that about Ponder. Opinions are usually divided about every player. Some people are more obnoxious than others, and I don't think Ponder was nearly as terrible as some people want to think he is. Some people are completely oblivious to what he does well, and some people are oblivious to what he does wrong. I remember when I was pretty disgusted with the amount of 3-and-outs our offense had, and was calling for Matt Cassel. There were always some guys who had the excuses lined up. "Musgrave sucks", "AP isn't as good as he was last year", "Charlie Johnson sucks", "our waterboy is ignoring him", "Matt Kalil sucks", "Samantha isn't giving him any", "Phil Loadholt sucks", and of course who can forget "he's not losing us games, our defense is just as responsible!!", like any of us were blaming us for the defense's poor performance.

Ponder was a piece of the team, and playing one of the most important positions (arguably THE most important), and therefore contributes to the overall performance of the team fairly significantly. He was also decent a few times, was in what I admit was a pretty terrible system, and it's hard to stick to the game plan when your defense surrenders 30 points per game. That's about the size of it, and I honestly don't think it's going to matter than much this year. Our guys are going to be able to stop the run this year (which was the biggest problem that no one talks about on defense), we aren't going to give up nearly as many points per game, and our offense shouldn't have any problems keeping teams guessing with Norv calling the plays.