"The Next Step" for Christian Ponder

[justinkendle]

I remember all about the #### about Childress back in 2010, this board was going bananas about how much Childress sucked, every post about Childress was about how he should be fired now. Soon after that he was fired so hopefully Ponder will get better or he wont. and he will be benched eventually.

[John_Viveiros]

I didn't see the third pick today, but the first one bounced off of Jerome Simpson's hands and then was a tipped ball which the defender grabbed. Hard to blame this play on the QB. Not sure where else people want Ponder to throw this particular pass? Simpson was otherwise great today, but on this play he was a disaster.

The second pick was classic Ponder Mr. Hyde. He was on the run had a defender in his face. He tried to turn nothing into something by heaving it and instead turned a sack into an INT. Just awful. Head to the side line or take the sack. This one was reminiscent of the pick to Morgan Burnett last year in GB. We had our boot on the Lion's neck and Ponder single handedly helped them back into the game. This is the crap that has to stop for him to take the next step.

He also had a curl route that the defender jumped when stared down the target. Ponder got lucky and the guy didn't conver this into an INT. Again, he just can't do this kind of crap.

The first pick wasn't on Ponder. One way or another, it's Simpson's responsibility to either undercut the DB or to catch the ball if it is near his hands.

The second was ridiculous. It's an acceptable risk of outcome if your QB is Bret Favre or Drew Brees and he's going to throw for 40 TD's anyway. But Ponder is going to get about half that many, and this one just took points off the board for the Vikes (a Walsh FG).

I do want to talk about your last point. I'm sure I hear about other QB's influencing the safeties with their eyes. Imagine if Ponder had faked the throw that was almost intercepted by the DB coming off his man. The other Viking receiver, don't know who, was left uncovered. Why can't Ponder do that? Why can't he stare down a receiver, and then throw it to another guy?

In essence, the argument is made by the way the defense plays in these situations. They can all leave the guy they are covering and converge on the guy Ponder is looking at. They might as well just leave their guys to run free after Ponder locks on, because he won't see them.

[Reignman]

No it wasn't. That's EXACTLY where you throw it. Right where only the receiver can catch it. ESPECIALLY in man-to-man coverage. He was draped. That is supposed to have been learned in practice. Pure timing and it was there, but Simpson couldn't catch. Period.

Nope, he shouldn't have thrown it at all. Simpson was draped so he should have went to his 2nd read.

[Demi]

The first pick wasn't on Ponder. One way or another, it's Simpson's responsibility to either undercut the DB or to catch the ball if it is near his hands.

None of it's on Ponder? He doesn't even have to recognize that the CB got inside leverage and was all over the route?

[PacificNorseWest]

The biggest takeaway from today, regarding Ponder, was his inability to finish a progression. Even start it, for that matter.

Read one not open, maybe read two, but you can tell panic sets in. A few of his rollouts were not designed. He was flustered. At a certain point when things weren't going his way, the snowball effect set in that made him so readily willing to flush himself from the pocket. His accuracy was the biggest hindrance of him suffering from a lack of confidence. His footwork gets all scrambled and he loses his head.

I DON'T want that in my #1, but I also know that it's very possible to turn it right back around next week. I've been watching football too long to foolishly say that he's a finished product, when week 1 is easily the sloppiest game for many individuals and teams and is not reflective of how a team is later in the year.

Wait. I don't care if you're not patient...It's not your choice and it's clear that half of you rely on confirmation bias or surface level thinking to prove a point. I know Jim doesn't buy it and neither do I. That's why it's frustrating. Ain't no one trying to make excuses for Ponder. Hell, how old are you Jim? I'm pretty sure he wants to win a SB just as bad as we all do.

[PacificNorseWest]

Nope, he shouldn't have thrown it at all. Simpson was draped so he should have went to his 2nd read.

May not have been one. I don't remember the personnel on that play, but usually it's a presnap read that dictates where the ball is going. Quick dropstep and release. It's not meant to have another option because of how quick they're trying to jump ahead of the D.

[mansquatch]

The first pick wasn't on Ponder. One way or another, it's Simpson's responsibility to either undercut the DB or to catch the ball if it is near his hands.

The second was ridiculous. It's an acceptable risk of outcome if your QB is Bret Favre or Drew Brees and he's going to throw for 40 TD's anyway. But Ponder is going to get about half that many, and this one just took points off the board for the Vikes (a Walsh FG).

I do want to talk about your last point. I'm sure I hear about other QB's influencing the safeties with their eyes. Imagine if Ponder had faked the throw that was almost intercepted by the DB coming off his man. The other Viking receiver, don't know who, was left uncovered. Why can't Ponder do that? Why can't he stare down a receiver, and then throw it to another guy?

In essence, the argument is made by the way the defense plays in these situations. They can all leave the guy they are covering and converge on the guy Ponder is looking at. They might as well just leave their guys to run free after Ponder locks on, because he won't see them.

Looking guys off would be great, I'm all for that. I don't think he is there with his game right now though. I didn't see the happy feet stuff we saw when he was a true rookie and to some extent saw last year. He certainly got flushed from the pocket, but in my viewing was more due to the horrid protection that phantom pressure.

We saw bad plays today, we saw good plays too. Again, we have Ponder being Jeckyl and Hyde. Obviously the Vikings cannot win with this amount of Mr. Hyde. However, we also saw the long ball and some mid range stuff. IMO this game ultimately tells us that Ponder is still who he was last year. My hope, and that is all it is, is that he can clean up the stupid decision making, we know he knows better, and show that he's made strides.

I do think this game isn't entirely on Ponder. Musgrave repeatedly putting him in 3rd and 12+ isn't exactly a recipe for success.

[mosscarter]

this comment made my day and couldn't have been said any better, "The issue is that we have better things to do with our lives than watch this guy play football." it is going to be a long and miserable seasons, and i wouldn't walk across the street to watch ponder anymore the guy does not have it.

[mansquatch]

May not have been one. I don't remember the personnel on that play, but usually it's a presnap read that dictates where the ball is going. Quick dropstep and release. It's not meant to have another option because of how quick they're trying to jump ahead of the D.

Exactly it was a quick slant, aka timing route. Ponder take the snap, stands up, and delivers the throw. It hit Simpson in the hands. He didn't bring it in. Ponder isn't even making a read on that throw, it is all timing.

[DanAS]

Move along then. No one is forcing you to watch.

Tivo, my sarcastic friend. Tivo. It allows me to watch horrid Vikings football, keep my self-image as a true fan, and save some of my precious time. It worked today because I had to do other stuff when the game started. But if it keeps going like this, I might try it even if I'm around when the game starts.

[John_Viveiros]

I understand it already and I'm not defending his performance today except to say that it wasn't 100% bad and I mean that in the most literal sense. There are people who want to suggest otherwise.

To me, this borders on being a strawman argument. [sarcasm]If only we recognized the fact that Ponder managed to handle the snap correctly every time. Clearly a man who can handle 49 out of 50 snaps without fumbling deserves our praise.[/sarcasm]

No, we (if I may speak for others, probably most) don't think Ponder can't do anything. I suspect he would be a decent CFL QB. He's clearly a better QB than I am. The problem is that he's clearly not a better QB than dozens of other QB's in the league. He was better than Gabbert today. That's it.

Speaking for myself, I have seen no sign in the last three years, including the stretches of games where his stats were good, to tell me that he has the capability to be anything more than what we saw today on a consistent basis - and I'm not talking about the 1st and 3rd interceptions (those things happen to all QB's). It's the inability to make a defense pay for putting 8 in the box to stop Peterson.

So for me, I think Ponder is at about a 10% chance of becoming, let's say, Danny White (stats better than Staubach, but lacks the championships). The other 90% is that he is what we have seen so far. To me, that math says that we should be working really hard at replacing him with a better option. To me, that begins with an honest evaluation of the other QB's on our roster.

And, as my broken record status must be maintained, somehow many of you seem to think Ponder needs more than 30 or so games to develop and be evaluated, but the same people (?) somehow think that we know what we have with Joe Webb after 4 or 5 games (3 where he was the most exciting player on the field).

[Mothman]

The biggest takeaway from today, regarding Ponder, was his inability to finish a progression. Even start it, for that matter.

Read one not open, maybe read two, but you can tell panic sets in. A few of his rollouts were not designed. He was flustered. At a certain point when things weren't going his way, the snowball effect set in that made him so readily willing to flush himself from the pocket. His accuracy was the biggest hindrance of him suffering from a lack of confidence. His footwork gets all scrambled and he loses his head.

I DON'T want that in my #1, but I also know that it's very possible to turn it right back around next week. I've been watching football too long to foolishly say that he's a finished product, when week 1 is easily the sloppiest game for many individuals and teams and is not reflective of how a team is later in the year.

Wait. I don't care if you're not patient...It's not your choice and it's clear that half of you rely on confirmation bias or surface level thinking to prove a point. I know Jim doesn't buy it and neither do I. That's why it's frustrating. Ain't no one trying to make excuses for Ponder. Hell, how old are you Jim? I'm pretty sure he wants to win a SB just as bad as we all do.

I'm 50 and I believe me, I want to see the Vikings win a Super Bowl as much as anybody. I watched them lose 4 and I've been waiting decades just to see them get another shot at it...

... and you're absolutely right about why I'm frustrated.

[DanAS]

To be honest, I no longer even care what the issue is regarding Ponder because I'm tired of talking about all of it. I need a break from the irrational, unreasonable posts that have gradually started to dominate this board and drown out the reasonable voices that used to be the majority. The Vikings could cut Ponder tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me if they had a replacement that made sense. I'd feel bad for the guy but really, he's not even the issue for me anymore. It's the way this board is barreling straight toward the same fate as the old Vikings newsgroup. It was created as a haven from the kind of nonsense that ruined that place. Now it's mired in it.

We need to focus primarily on the OTHER players besides problem. Some of those guys can plan and some can't. I really do think there is no issue with Ponder, but you can find another QB -- if not this year than perhaps next year. You can't fill 8 holes, but you can fill one, even if it's the hardest one.

I'd start with the linemen. I'm personally going to focus more on them next week, and I mean on both sides of the football. The backers are also a problem, but we knew that going in to this season. We had reason for decent expectations as to the DL, OTs, and the Center, and I was at least kind of hoping about the guards. But I wasn't impressed with either units today.

The sky isn't falling. The team looks worse, but there are still building blocks -- a number of them, in fact. But the guys need to do their best -- to fight hard -- and then we can see who is part of the problem and who is part of the solution.

And as some have pointed out, things are bound to improve. We're not going 4 and 12.

[Mothman]

We need to focus primarily on the OTHER players besides problem. Some of those guys can plan and some can't. I really do think there is no issue with Ponder, but you can find another QB -- if not this year than perhaps next year. You can't fill 8 holes, but you can fill one, even if it's the hardest one.

I'd start with the linemen. I'm personally going to focus more on them next week, and I mean on both sides of the football. The backers are also a problem, but we knew that going in to this season. We had reason for decent expectations as to the DL, OTs, and the Center, and I was at least kind of hoping about the guards. But I wasn't impressed with either units today.

The sky isn't falling. The team looks worse, but there are still building blocks -- a number of them, in fact. But the guys need to do their best -- to fight hard -- and then we can see who is part of the problem and who is part of the solution.

And as some have pointed out, things are bound to improve. We're not going 4 and 12.

Well said.

[John_Viveiros]

To be honest, I no longer even care what the issue is regarding Ponder because I'm tired of talking about all of it. I need a break from the irrational, unreasonable posts that have gradually started to dominate this board and drown out the reasonable voices that used to be the majority. The Vikings could cut Ponder tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me if they had a replacement that made sense. I'd feel bad for the guy but really, he's not even the issue for me anymore. It's the way this board is barreling straight toward the same fate as the old Vikings newsgroup. It was created as a haven from the kind of nonsense that ruined that place. Now it's mired in it.

I was thinking of lots of things to say, but maybe the best advice is to ignore the thread if you don't like it.

In re-reading the board rules, "venting", essentially what everyone does after a loss or a bad QB showing (Ponder, Tjack, Culpepper, etc) is completely allowed. Is there something I'm not seeing in the rules that make what this thread has become impermissible?

And as always, we all must remember...

"Good fan" / "Bad fan" posts are not permitted. Just because you disagree with someone's views doesn't mean that they're not as much of a fan as you are. Disagree and respond to the post, do not attack the poster.