Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote:Vikings like Michigan State cornerback Trae Waynes with 11th pick

Waynes still gives me pause and I'm not so sure he's far-and-away the best corner in the draft (Peters, Johnson, Jones). That said, the more I watch of him the more I like him in Zimmer's system. I think some of my apprehension comes from some recent highly-touted corners that have been...average to downright bad (Gilbert, Dennard, Milliner, Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, Amukamara). Am I wrong or haven't there been a lot of very solid/elite first-round corners lately (or at least top-15 corners)? Rhodes might be the best of the bunch. Patrick Peterson went fifth overall to the Cardinals in 2011. I don't think Waynes is as highly touted as Peterson was, nor has his ball skills. Hayden was worth the #7 pick by Cleveland (they surprisingly drafted a good player). Is Waynes on par with Hayden? I have my doubts. Gilmore went #10 to the Bills in 2012 and I thought more of his skills coming out then than I do Waynes, and I think Gilmore is going to have a very good year with Rex this year.

The more I think of it, the smaller my pool of preferred picks becomes (at 11). In order of preference at this point:

1. Cooper
2. Beasley
3. Scherff
4. Shelton
5/6. Collins/Trade down

With the exception of Beasley, I'm clearly going for safer, more high-floor guys. I don't think I would've taken the chance with Barr in 2014.

If we go with Waynes, I have confidence Zimmer can put him in a position to succeed, but I'm having doubts if he'd truly be the top pick on my board at that point. I don't think there's as much separation between him and the next 2-3 guys as some others believe. YMMV.

Brandon Scherff - T - Hawkeyes

CBS Sports' Frank Cooney advises NFL teams to draft Iowa OL Brandon Scherff "and then figure out where he can best help."

In other words, don't worry about projecting his long-term position just yet. "Physically, mentally and emotionally Scherff is exactly what a coach wants in an offensive lineman," Cooney wrote. "Scherff is unanimously acknowledged as the most NFL-ready offensive lineman in the draft, and a coach's dream, but there is no consensus on what position he should play. He could use his broad shoulders and toughness at guard, where he played as a freshman, or show his excellent technique at tackle, where he lined up on the left side the rest of his college career and was named consensus All-America and winner of the Outland Trophy last season as the best college lineman." When asked about shifting to guard in the NFL, Scherff responded: "I don't think there would be a challenge. I like run blocking. It would be a little closer. You're getting a little help from the center also. I think it would be a smooth move for me."
Source: CBS Sports

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La'El Collins - T - Tigers

LSU OL La'El Collins "should be a respected team leader in the locker room, especially when he takes charge on the field with an aggressive approach that reflects his background on defense," wrote CBS Sports' Frank Cooney.

"Collins has three styles of play: mean, meaner and meanest as he not only blocks defenders, he often eliminates them," Cooney wrote. "He has the potential to play right tackle or either guard position in the NFL, but does not have the pass-blocking ability needed to be a left tackle. On running plays, Collins launches his broad, muscular frame straight forward with alarming quickness, then engages the strength of his lower body and massive hands (10 3/4 inches)." It's little surprise that Collins brings the aggression of a defender to the offensive side of the ball. "I've always had the mentality of a defensive lineman, and I was able to bring that over to the offense, but also bring intelligence over to play offensive line," Collins said.
Source: CBS Sports

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Byron Jones - DB - Huskies

UConn CB Byron Jones ran 4.4- and 4.40-second 40-yard dashes at UConn's pro day, according to NFL Media senior analyst Gil Brandt.

CBS Sports' Dane Brugler had him at 4.36 seconds. Either way, it was another impressive showing from the Huskies' riser. "Jones worked out well at the pro day, catching the ball really well," Brandt wrote. "He is really good in press coverage. Above all, Jones is described as an outstanding person; he had served as a team captain and was a leader on the field and in the locker room." Jones elected to stand on most of his other combine numbers, no surprise after the show he put on in Indy.
Source: NFL.com

dead_poet wrote: Waynes still gives me pause and I'm not so sure he's far-and-away the best corner in the draft (Peters, Johnson, Jones). That said, the more I watch of him the more I like him in Zimmer's system. I think some of my apprehension comes from some recent highly-touted corners that have been...average to downright bad (Gilbert, Dennard, Milliner, Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, Amukamara). Am I wrong or haven't there been a lot of very solid/elite first-round corners lately (or at least top-15 corners)? Rhodes might be the best of the bunch. Patrick Peterson went fifth overall to the Cardinals in 2011. I don't think Waynes is as highly touted as Peterson was, nor has his ball skills. Hayden was worth the #7 pick by Cleveland (they surprisingly drafted a good player). Is Waynes on par with Hayden? I have my doubts. Gilmore went #10 to the Bills in 2012 and I thought more of his skills coming out then than I do Waynes, and I think Gilmore is going to have a very good year with Rex this year.

The more I think of it, the smaller my pool of preferred picks becomes (at 11). In order of preference at this point:

1. Cooper
2. Beasley
3. Scherff
4. Shelton
5/6. Collins/Trade down

With the exception of Beasley, I'm clearly going for safer, more high-floor guys. I don't think I would've taken the chance with Barr in 2014.

If we go with Waynes, I have confidence Zimmer can put him in a position to succeed, but I'm having doubts if he'd truly be the top pick on my board at that point. I don't think there's as much separation between him and the next 2-3 guys as some others believe. YMMV.

Interesting. I really believe in Waynes. I dont think Peters is close to the all around type of CB that would fit so well with Smith and Rhodes back there. Going to look into CB's more though, I know Waynes mainly because he's in the Big 10.

Cooper would be a dream. But it may happen. Talk about a #1 WR.

I think of Beasley as a slower Barr. I really hope they look at more of a C J Mosely type LB next time they pick a LB.

Are you thinking of Scherff as a tackle or guard. I was surprised hearing some people want him as tackle. I was pretty hard on Kalil, but there's no way I would replace him yet, and not with our first pick.

PurpleKoolaid wrote:Interesting. I really believe in Waynes. I dont think Peters is close to the all around type of CB that would fit so well with Smith and Rhodes back there.

Why is that?

This is a quick video that may interest you: http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/video ... 5c5c40c428

The knock on the top four is really run support and zone recognition. I think in terms of ball skills, Waynes doesn't make me think he's significantly better. There are some good press corners that will go in the top-50 of this draft, though. I just don't think any of the top four will be available when we pick in the second round. What separates some of the four, to me, is experience and polish. Speed, physicality (in terms of coverage) and athleticism isn't really too much of a question for any of them. I wouldn't characterize Waynes' awareness as the top of the four, either. Don't get me wrong, I think he can be good, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's not the best of the four after 2-3 years.

I think of Beasley as a slower Barr.

What? Barr ran a 4.66-40. Beasley ran a 4.53 (granted Beasley is a couple inches shorter and like 8 pounds lighter). Beasley is a monster. He beat Barr's vertical by seven inches and his broad jump by 11 inches. Barr beat Beasley in three cone, though. Beasley is more suited to a 3-4 but I think Zimmer would love to have him to work with as the "Will" to Barr's "Sam." That would be some serious speed on the edge.

I really hope they look at more of a C J Mosely type LB next time they pick a LB.

Probably not at 11. But R2 there will be options. We all know how much Zimmer values getting after the quarterback. Beasley/Bar combination would be killer.

Are you thinking of Scherff as a tackle or guard. I was surprised hearing some people want him as tackle. I was pretty hard on Kalil, but there's no way I would replace him yet, and not with our first pick.

I'm thinking starting Scherff as LG with the potential to try tackle in 2016 if it becomes evident that Kalil isn't the answer after 2015.

dead_poet wrote: Waynes still gives me pause and I'm not so sure he's far-and-away the best corner in the draft (Peters, Johnson, Jones). That said, the more I watch of him the more I like him in Zimmer's system. I think some of my apprehension comes from some recent highly-touted corners that have been...average to downright bad (Gilbert, Dennard, Milliner, Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, Amukamara). Am I wrong or haven't there been a lot of very solid/elite first-round corners lately (or at least top-15 corners)? Rhodes might be the best of the bunch. Patrick Peterson went fifth overall to the Cardinals in 2011. I don't think Waynes is as highly touted as Peterson was, nor has his ball skills. Hayden was worth the #7 pick by Cleveland (they surprisingly drafted a good player). Is Waynes on par with Hayden? I have my doubts. Gilmore went #10 to the Bills in 2012 and I thought more of his skills coming out then than I do Waynes, and I think Gilmore is going to have a very good year with Rex this year.

I certainly understand the apprehension but in terms of CBs, he looks like one of the best bets in this draft. Of all the positions the Vikings could select, DB is the one where i'd have the most confidence in Zimmer's ability to identify what he needs in a player so if the Vikings did go with Waynes, I'd feel pretty good about it.

The more I think of it, the smaller my pool of preferred picks becomes (at 11). In order of preference at this point:

1. Cooper
2. Beasley
3. Scherff
4. Shelton
5/6. Collins/Trade down

With the exception of Beasley, I'm clearly going for safer, more high-floor guys. I don't think I would've taken the chance with Barr in 2014.

I think we can all but forget about Scherff unless the Vikes trade up. He seems to be widely viewed as the top o-lineman in this draft, and as a "high floor" guy, and it's rare for the top 10 picks in a draft to go by without an o-lineman being drafted. In fact, based on your list, I wouldn't be surprised if Collins/trade down ended up being the only one of those options left, although you never know!

I assume you meant La'El Collins, correct?

If the Vikes traded Peterson, would any of the RBs join your pool of preferred picks at 11 or would you wait?

Mothman wrote:I certainly understand the apprehension but in terms of CBs, he looks like one of the best bets in this draft. Of all the positions the Vikings could select, DB is the one where i'd have the most confidence in Zimmer's ability to identify what he needs in a player so if the Vikings did go with Waynes, I'd feel pretty good about it.

I get that perspective. But you look at a guy like Milliner with Rex and Rex is supposedly a good defensive guy and he benched the former first-round pick several times for being flat-out awful. I'm not saying Waynes is Milliner, but there's only so much you can do with a guy that can't get the job done (again, not saying that's Waynes). I'm just thinking Waynes, in terms of BPA, is lower on my board than some other players and closer to the other three corners. I'd probably pick one of the ones I listed of other positions (if available) and perhaps try and trade back into the first round to get one of the other top three corners with the understanding I'm probably not losing much between them while also grabbing a more highly-ranked player on my board at 11. Like the Rhodes deal. But if Waynes is our selection, I'll be cautiously optimistic instead of having more confidence in one of the other players.

I think we can all but forget about Scherff unless the Vikes trade up. He seems to be widely viewed as the top o-lineman in this draft, and as a "high floor" guy, and it's rare for the top 10 picks in a draft to go by without an o-lineman being drafted.

We'll see! The mocks I've been following have him going 8-18 range. I think it's quite conceivable he'll be there when we pick. This draft is top-loaded with pass rushers, and those are also a premium. Same with the top two QBs and 2-3 potential top-10 WRs.

In fact, based on your list, I wouldn't be surprised if Collins/trade down ended up being the only one of those options left, although you never know!

That's what makes the draft so fun, it's so unpredictable.

I assume you meant La'El Collins, correct?

Correct. He has the potential to be a very good guard in addition to capable tackle. I really like hedging with that kind of player as he not only will fill an immediate position of need (LG) but his versatility can only help if injury strikes or Kalil struggles. I like having another horse in the stable at a "premiere" position rather than being forced to potentially have to take a LT in 2016 if Kalil proves he can't be relied on as a starting NFL LT.

If the Vikes traded Peterson, would any of the RBs join your pool of preferred picks at 11 or would you wait?

*exhales*

That's the $64,000 question, isn't it. As deep as this RB class is and the fact that I think McKinnon can be a decent back already in the stable, I'd take one in rounds 2-3 if Peterson is gone, likely using the second-round pick we get on his replacement. The only one I'd take at 11 would be Gurley, and I think there are others more worthy of the pick at that position.

dead_poet wrote: I get that perspective. But you look at a guy like Milliner with Rex and Rex is supposedly a good defensive guy and he benched the former first-round pick several times for being flat-out awful. I'm not saying Waynes is Milliner, but there's only so much you can do with a guy that can't get the job done (again, not saying that's Waynes). I'm just thinking Waynes, in terms of BPA, is lower on my board than some other players and closer to the other three corners. I'd probably pick one of the ones I listed of other positions (if available) and perhaps try and trade back into the first round to get one of the other top three corners with the understanding I'm probably not losing much between them while also grabbing a more highly-ranked player on my board at 11. Like the Rhodes deal.

I understand. My take is that any player can disappoint but I firmly believe teams need to trust their evaluations and act accordingly. Waynes has been a good player for MSU and since DB is Zimmer's area of expertise, if the Vikes pulled the trigger on him at #11, I'd be willing to accept the idea that they felt he offered more value for what they're trying to build than some of the other players available. In other words, for what they're trying to build, maybe he will end up being the BPA. I've really come to believe that a good fit makes a big difference.

Does that make sense?

We'll see! The mocks I've been following have him going 8-18 range. I think it's quite conceivable he'll be there when we pick. This draft is top-loaded with edge rushers, and those are also a premium. Same with the top two QBs and 2-3 potential top-10 WRs.

Well, it's impossible. In 2005, the first o-lineman didn't go off the board until pick #13 so it could happen... as you said, the unpredictability of the draft is a big part of what makes it fun!

Correct. He has the potential to be a very good guard in addition to capable tackle. I really like hedging with that kind of player as he not only will fill an immediate position of need (LG) but his versatility can only help if injury strikes or Kalil struggles. I like having another horse in the stable at a "premiere" position rather than being forced to potentially have to take a LT in 2016 if Kalil proves he can't be relied on as a starting NFL LT.

I like that idea. It's smart to have versatility on the OL if possible.

*exhales*

That's the $64,000 question, isn't it. As deep as this RB class is and the fact that I think McKinnon can be a decent back already in the stable, I'd take one in rounds 2-3 if Peterson is gone, likely using the second-round pick we get on his replacement. The only one I'd take at 11 would be Gurley, and I think there are others more worthy of the pick at that position.

I'm torn. Gurley's injury history would make me hesitant to select him that high. I think Gordon could be worth it but then again, I'm not sure Coleman can't be just as good and most have him going in R2. I'm very curious to see when the RBs will be drafted in this class. At some point in R1 or the first half of R2, I'm expecting a run on the position.

I don't think it's going to happen but I would love to see the Vikes invest one of their first two picks in an RB. That probably wouldn't be popular with a lot of the fan base but in terms of a "best player available" philosophy, I think there's going to be talent at that position it might be foolish to pass up.

We need more picks.

Mothman wrote:I understand. My take is that any player can disappoint but I firmly believe teams need to trust their evaluations and act accordingly. Waynes has been a good player for MSU and since DB is Zimmer's area of expertise, if the Vikes pulled the trigger on him at #11, I'd be willing to accept the idea that they felt he offered more value for what they're trying to build than some of the other players available. In other words, for what they're trying to build, maybe he will end up being the BPA. I've really come to believe that a good fit makes a big difference.

Does that make sense?

Yep. As I edited above, I wouldn't even be disappointed in the pick. It'd just make me more nervous is all (Chris Cook flashback). In a division with Rodgers and Stafford and Calvin Johnson, Jeffery, Nelson, Cobb, etc. having secondary as a position of strength would be a welcome scene (we've seen all to often how having a bad one can make winning games much more difficult). And I do think he's a good fit. Of course, I think any of the "Top Four" are good fits, too. But there's no guarantee that one of them will even be there at the bottom of the 1st/top of the second either.

In 2005, the first o-lineman didn't go off the board until pick #13 so it could happen... as you said, the unpredictability of the draft is a big part of what makes it fun!

Clemmings/La'el Collins could also come off the board first, especially if some teams don't think Scherff can play LT (traditionally a more highly-valued position).

I'm torn. Gurley's injury history would make me hesitant to select him that high. I think Gordon could be worth it but then again, I'm not sure Coleman can't be just as good and most have him going in R2. I'm very curious to see when the RBs will be drafted in this class. At some point in R1 or the first half of R2, I'm expecting a run on the position.

I go back and forth on the injury. After all, was it not a collarbone that dropped Peterson? Granted, an ACL is more severe than collarbone (though seemingly a better/higher 100% recovery rate these days) but I wonder where his projection would be had he not sustained it. He has the overall talent to probably be in the top-15 consideration, even with the position value what some see it as. I think Vikings fans would be very upset if we took him at 11, but he's a guy to consider if we trade back. I think we'll see a RB run starting with Dallas' selection and a lot going in round 2.

I don't think it's going to happen but I would love to see the Vikes invest one of their first two picks in an RB. That probably wouldn't be popular with a lot of the fan base but in terms of a "best player available" philosophy, I think there's going to be talent at that position it might be foolish to pass up.

Is that conditional on Peterson?

I also wonder how McKinnon fits into all this. I mean, if we didn't have him or he had an uninspiring 2014 I can see the position being of greater need and definitely worth spending a high-rounder. Of course he had to go out and exceed some expectations, the jerk. But I really don't know what the future holds for Peterson. Even if he is on the roster in 2015, is he in 2016? If we pass on a lot of potentially great runners in 2015, will we be upset with the crop in 2016 if we need one then? The more I think about it, the more the question mark of McKinnon really throws a wrench in my line of thinking. Is he "just a guy"? A load-carrying back? Change of pace?

We need more picks.

Yeah. I can see why Rick values them so highly. I think we should get an extra couple of second-rounders. I mean, it's the Vikings; our handicap should allow at least that.

It seems like Zimmer is really getting involved with the DB scouting so hopefully he grabs the guy that best fits the system. I honestly haven't had the time to evaluate the corners much this year but I was not a fan of Gilbert although Dennard has probably only been marginally better (haven't really followed).

Byron Jones - DB - Player

ESPN's Adam Caplan believes UConn CB Byron Jones could be a first-round draft pick.

Jones lit up both the Combine and his Pro Day, and has excellent size at 6-foot-1, 199 pounds. Jones' Combine broad jump of 12'3" was a new record, and theoretically a world record. He also posted a 44.5-inch vertical. Jones' athleticism is simply off the charts, while he's also been praised as a leader.
Source: Adam Caplan on Twitter

dead_poet wrote:I go back and forth on the injury. After all, was it not a collarbone that dropped Peterson? Granted, an ACL is more severe than collarbone (though seemingly a better/higher 100% recovery rate these days) but I wonder where his projection would be had he not sustained it. He has the overall talent to probably be in the top-15 consideration, even with the position value what some see it as.

I think so too.

Is that conditional on Peterson?

No. At this point, sadly, I'm feeling like the writing is probably on the wall and that if even if peterson is a Viking in 2015, it will probably be his last season with the team. Consequently, I'd like to see them select one of the better RB prospects in this draft and begin grooming him as a potential replacement.

I also wonder how McKinnon fits into all this. I mean, if we didn't have him or he had an uninspiring 2014 I can see the position being of greater need and definitely worth spending a high-rounder. Of course he had to go out and exceed some expectations, the jerk. But I really don't know what the future holds for Peterson. Even if he is on the roster in 2015, is he in 2016? If we pass on a lot of potentially great runners in 2015, will we be upset with the crop in 2016 if we need one then? The more I think about it, the more the question mark of McKinnon really throws a wrench in my line of thinking. Is he "just a guy"? A load-carrying back? Change of pace?

I don't know but my take on it is that because its unclear, they should take one of the better backs in the draft because there are some potential game-changers available. That might not be a popular sentiment but If they end up with an embarrassment of riches at the position in 2015, I don't see that as a problem. I also think a strong running game is an important part of Turner's offense and can still be one of the big keys to championship success, so I want depth and quality at the position, now and in the future.

Yeah. I can see why Rick values them so highly. I think we should get an extra couple of second-rounders. I mean, it's the Vikings; our handicap should allow at least that.

Agreed!

To expand on Jim's "embarrassment of riches" point, at one point San Diego had Tomlinson, Sproles, and Michael Turner. That's a good problem to have.

On the flip side, I'd rather have multiple talented receivers, linebackers, or defensive backs than running backs.

Then again, who knows what we have if Peterson is gone...

This makes my head hurt.

Mothman wrote:That might not be a popular sentiment but If they end up with an embarrassment of riches at the position in 2015, I don't see that as a problem.

We could put McKinnon under center and run the triple option!

I like the idea of having quality depth but not before filling holes in starting spots. Also, depth(quality depth) along the trenches and defensive backfield before RB would be my choice...not as a rule though.
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I can't imagine a scenario where they don't draft a RB this year...unless they mutually reslove to keep AD, before draft day ....but even then if the right guy is there at the right time.