Vikings Message Board.Com

PacificNorseWest wrote: Ponder didn't even see 90% of the open guys.

touché lol

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Jim, I hate to say it, but given today's performance by Ponder, your comment is pretty unfair.

My comment isn't based on today's performance but I'll agree that it's an unfair generalization because of the way I phrased it. What I really meant was that some fans feel that way and I don't think that's unfair at all. I'm tired of ALL of this so I won't go into detail but suffice to say that I'm referring to the electron microscope of criticism Ponder has been under for 2 years now. There's a level of criticism that is fair and justified and there's a level at which people are just piling on and being unrealistic. I'm talking about the latter extreme and I know you've seen that stuff around here.

Yes, we want him to be better. I, for one, would accept almost any degree of better. But the brutal reality of today ... he wasn't. Not even close. Honestly, he was pretty horrible.

When you see the replay, you'll understand what we're talking about.

I understand it already and I'm not defending his performance today except to say that it wasn't 100% bad and I mean that in the most literal sense. There are people who want to suggest otherwise.

I assume Jim is talking about people like me, cause I am an admitted Ponder "hater" since the day he was drafted. I wanted him to do well, I just didn't think he would. And he hasn't. Jim only sees positives when it comes to Ponder. The negatives are someone's else's fault. He thinks people like myself error one way, while I see people like himself extreme in the other way. And he is right, it does get tiring. At some point, the Vikes HAVE to address the QB situation.

There's a level of criticism that is fair and justified and there's a level at which people are just piling on and being unrealistic. I'm talking about the latter extreme and I know you've seen that stuff around here.

As the leader of the Ponder lynch mob...there's a reason. You had FSU fans after the draft telling us he's not NFL material. You watch him at FSU and he wasn't a very good QB. You saw repeatedly, preseason, regular season, heard about practices, that the guy doesn't have it. And you watch games and see it. And still there are fans who say "give him more time". Spielman and the Vikings say "3 years!" you don't need 3 years! It was clear from day one! And they didn't even try to have a backup plan. And then this year they just grab the best veteran available. No QB drafted the entire team since he was drafted. No real undrafted free agents. They just give him it. Same thing happened with Jackson before this. Why do we keep screwing with this position? Some fans (myself) are damn sick and tired of it. Childress came in and jerked around Culpepper. Half assed it the entire time. He's gone, and we do it again. It's maddening. And keeps happening!!!

allday1991 wrote:
If you read a few post up you will see why his passing completion Is higher than it should be, did you watch this offence last year? Our best passing play was a screen like dump to Harvin ....so hard to complete. My prove of him not going through his reads is in the information of another person seeing what I see so therefor backing up my point, notice I didn't have to use words like "I think' he goes through his reads like you did.

His completion percentage is what it is. You can try and rationalize that it should be lower, but that does not change the fact that he is able to hit receivers in the short and medium range. I don't care if they are easy throws or not. Completion percentage has absolutely nothing to do with measuring difficulty of the throw. He throws an absolutely horrible and inaccurate long ball.

Notice I use words like "I think" because I am expressing MY OPINION. Much as you are expressing yours. You are not an NFL coach nor an NFL player, I assume, so unless you have some other access to game film, your "proof" is simply hearsay. Has he missed open players, undoubtedly. Is that a result of not moving through his progressions, or his field vision? THAT is arguable.

I contend he goes through his check downs and simply does not see the open guy in real time. I could be wrong. You claim he does not check down and always goes to the primary receiver. I just don't see that, but you seem to be firmly convinced of that.

Do you actually understand the term confirmation bias?

I didn't see the third pick today, but the first one bounced off of Jerome Simpson's hands and then was a tipped ball which the defender grabbed. Hard to blame this play on the QB. Not sure where else people want Ponder to throw this particular pass? Simpson was otherwise great today, but on this play he was a disaster.

The second pick was classic Ponder Mr. Hyde. He was on the run had a defender in his face. He tried to turn nothing into something by heaving it and instead turned a sack into an INT. Just awful. Head to the side line or take the sack. This one was reminiscent of the pick to Morgan Burnett last year in GB. We had our boot on the Lion's neck and Ponder single handedly helped them back into the game. This is the crap that has to stop for him to take the next step.

He also had a curl route that the defender jumped when stared down the target. Ponder got lucky and the guy didn't conver this into an INT. Again, he just can't do this kind of crap.

As I said, I didn't see the 3rd INT, but heard it was another tip ball.

The 2nd TD drive I thought he made some nice throws and they scored. Ponder completed some nice mid-range stuff as well. Lost in the knee jerk anger is the fact that he was completing some deeper stuff when he actually had some time and wasn't passing out of 3rd and 12+. Aside from AP's big play, the 1st half offense was the passing game.

Also, Musgrave was a complete failure today. He did not adjust to the fact that his OL was not able to keep Suh and Fairely out of the backfield. They should have put CP on the field and run the PH stuff to make the Lions' pay for stacking the inside box against #28. Also, they played AP like he was their crutch today and it wasn't working after the first play. They did Ponder no favors here, most 3rd downs he was trying to conver 12+ yards to get the first down. This is just stubborn playcalling and was painfully similar to ChilliBall. The coaching was just plain awful.

The third INT wasn't a tip, he overthrew Rudolph.

Mothman wrote:
I understand it already and I'm not defending his performance today except to say that it wasn't 100% bad and I mean that in the most literal sense. There are people who want to suggest otherwise.

He doesn't belong as the starting quarterback of an NFL team. Whether he is 100% bad or 97% bad or 99% bad is really not the issue.

The issue is that we have better things to do with our lives than watch this guy play football. And the management is really the issue, not Ponder, who may well be doing his best. I mean he's better than I would be at his job. And if I had the job, I would hope that people wouldn't waste time thinking about why I stink. It would be because I lack the skills. Period. So does he.

The first pic was a poor throw as well. That's why it was tipped. It was a timing slant and well, that's what happens when the ball is poorly thrown.

BGM wrote: His completion percentage is what it is. You can try and rationalize that it should be lower, but that does not change the fact that he is able to hit receivers in the short and medium range. I don't care if they are easy throws or not. Completion percentage has absolutely nothing to do with measuring difficulty of the throw. He throws an absolutely horrible and inaccurate long ball.

Notice I use words like "I think" because I am expressing MY OPINION. Much as you are expressing yours. You are not an NFL coach nor an NFL player, I assume, so unless you have some other access to game film, your "proof" is simply hearsay. Has he missed open players, undoubtedly. Is that a result of not moving through his progressions, or his field vision? THAT is arguable.

I contend he goes through his check downs and simply does not see the open guy in real time. I could be wrong. You claim he does not check down and always goes to the primary receiver. I just don't see that, but you seem to be firmly convinced of that.

Do you actually understand the term confirmation bias?

Watch the play again with Wright running a hitch that is almost a pick six the other way but lucky the lion defender dropped the ball. Watch Ponders head as he stairs down Wright the whole play and doesn't move his head side to side, what more proof do you want that he doesn't go through his progressions. Its easy enough to see when a guy in the pocket is moving his head around and going through progressions, if he looks one way then runs that isn't going through your progression not hard to see.

DanAS wrote: He doesn't belong as the starting quarterback of an NFL team. Whether he is 100% bad or 97% bad or 99% bad is really not the issue.

To be honest, I no longer even care what the issue is regarding Ponder because I'm tired of talking about all of it. I need a break from the irrational, unreasonable posts that have gradually started to dominate this board and drown out the reasonable voices that used to be the majority. The Vikings could cut Ponder tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me if they had a replacement that made sense. I'd feel bad for the guy but really, he's not even the issue for me anymore. It's the way this board is barreling straight toward the same fate as the old Vikings newsgroup. It was created as a haven from the kind of nonsense that ruined that place. Now it's mired in it.

Mothman wrote: To be honest, I no longer even care what the issue is regarding Ponder because I'm tired of talking about all of it. I need a break from the irrational, unreasonable posts that have gradually started to dominate this board and drown out the reasonable voices that used to be the majority. The Vikings could cut Ponder tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me if they had a replacement that made sense. I'd feel bad for the guy but really, he's not even the issue for me anymore. It's the way this board is barreling straight toward the same fate as the old Vikings newsgroup. It was created as a haven from the kind of nonsense that ruined that place. Now it's mired in it.

We want a winning competitive team, Ponder isn't getting it done, I don't see what's so unreasonable or irrational.

DanAS wrote:
The issue is that we have better things to do with our lives than watch this guy play football.

Move along then. No one is forcing you to watch.

PacificNorseWest wrote: Move along then. No one is forcing you to watch.

That's the attitude.
You a Twins fan too by any chance?

PurpleKoolaid wrote:The first pic was a poor throw as well. That's why it was tipped. It was a timing slant and well, that's what happens when the ball is poorly thrown.

No it wasn't. That's EXACTLY where you throw it. Right where only the receiver can catch it. ESPECIALLY in man-to-man coverage. He was draped. That is supposed to have been learned in practice. Pure timing and it was there, but Simpson couldn't catch. Period.