Vikings Message Board.Com

I'd like to point out Teddy Bridgewater's stiff arm. Its pretty amazing. From the point he uses it until the point he's tackled it usually adds 7.4293 yards to each play! Of course this factors in using it to throw the ball out of bounds and counts that as a positive between the use of the stiff arm and the spot of the ball back at the line of scrimmage. The stiff arm clearly elevates him above Ponder who never used a stiff arm. In fact, his stiff arm is in the same category as Big Ben, making him less likely to be sacked even though he holds onto the ball longer. In fact, considering he holds onto the ball for 3.4532 seconds on avg his sack rate of 1.345403 per 334.23543 is best in NFL history. In fact, his QBR after using the stiff arm rises to 89.5 which is great. In fact, Its the greatest of all time after using a stiff arm. And when its a play action followed by a stiff arm his QBR is a perfect 2350348095!

fiestavike wrote:I'd like to point out Teddy Bridgewater's stiff arm. Its pretty amazing. From the point he uses it until the point he's tackled it usually adds 7.4293 yards to each play! Of course this factors in using it to throw the ball out of bounds and counts that as a positive between the use of the stiff arm and the spot of the ball back at the line of scrimmage. The stiff arm clearly elevates him above Ponder who never used a stiff arm. In fact, his stiff arm is in the same category as Big Ben, making him less likely to be sacked even though he holds onto the ball longer. In fact, considering he holds onto the ball for 3.4532 seconds on avg his sack rate of 1.345403 per 334.23543 is best in NFL history. In fact, his QBR after using the stiff arm rises to 89.5 which is great. In fact, Its the greatest of all time after using a stiff arm. And when its a play action followed by a stiff arm his QBR is a perfect 2350348095!

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

So he is being asked to play from his least comfortable spot on the field and thats still not a good enough reason?


Its the EXACT reason we aren't asking Peterson to play out of Shotgun, because he sucks from it. So we ask Teddy to play under center more but no excuse, he needs to get it done.


He is a second year QB being asked to play smart and safe and taking most of his snaps in his least comfortable position on the field. Everyone wants him to take more risks until a defender makes a play on a well thrown ball to Diggs and its intercepted then everyone will scream "AP is having a career year!!!! WHY ARE YOU PASSING?!?!?!?!?!?!"

UH, if you wanna be a franchise NFL QB you better be good at taking snaps both from the gun and under center. If all of Teddys lackluster throws stem from the fact that he cant function under center....he isnt going to go very far. Its a lame excuse.

IrishViking wrote:So he is being asked to play from his least comfortable spot on the field and thats still not a good enough reason?

Its the EXACT reason we aren't asking Peterson to play out of Shotgun, because he sucks from it. So we ask Teddy to play under center more but no excuse, he needs to get it done.

He is a second year QB being asked to play smart and safe and taking most of his snaps in his least comfortable position on the field. Everyone wants him to take more risks until a defender makes a play on a well thrown ball to Diggs and its intercepted then everyone will scream "AP is having a career year!!!! WHY ARE YOU PASSING?!?!?!?!?!?!"

Maybe... but I think that would depend on the situation. I fully grasp the risk of asking him to be more aggressive but again, I don't think anyone is asking him him to press or play recklessly.

It's professional football. He needs to be able to play from the pocket as a dropback passer. He needs to be able to read a defense and make more plays down the field and learning to do so, mistakes and all, is a necessary part of his development. If he just stays in "safe mode", he's basically a middling backup quarterback in starter's shoes.

It absolutely amazes me that suggesting one of the least productive passers in the league needs to be more productive causes such intense consternation among Vikings fans. What, exactly, is unfair about expecting an NFL QB to be able to play under center, throw downfield, pass for more than 12-14 TDs in a season, etc.? His coaches clearly want him to do more, what's wrong with us wanting it too?

chicagopurple wrote:UH, if you wanna be a franchise NFL QB you better be good at taking snaps both from the gun and under center. If all of Teddys lackluster throws stem from the fact that he cant function under center....he isnt going to go very far. Its a lame excuse.

Uh... if you want a Franchise running back you better be good at running for shotgun and under center

Peyton also is a living example of being better in shotgun than under center.


So... yeah... no.


EDIT


the Peyton thing really really stands out to me. He is a HOF potentially GOAT that has always struggled under center vs his preferred shotgun snapping. There was a big issue with it earlier THIS YEAR in Denver


They didn't say 10 years ago "Sorry Peyton we need you to be good under center so even though you are 10% better across the board we are going to have you play under center from now on"

IrishViking wrote: Uh... if you want a Franchise running back you better be good at running for shotgun and under center

Peterson's had positive runs from the shotgun this season and throughout his career. It's not like he can't do it but it's a passing formation. He's less effective out of it because it makes it easier for defenses to defend him. The run options from that formation are more limited and tend to be based on deception. However, it's harder to deceive a defense with Peterson in the shotgun because they still understand he's the biggest offensive threat on the field. He remains a high priority.

Peyton also is a living example of being better in shotgun than under center.

He also had tools and played at a level Bridgewater can't begin to approach.

They didn't say 10 years ago "Sorry Peyton we need you to be good under center so even though you are 10% better across the board we are going to have you play under center from now on

Do you honestly think the Vikings can build the kind of shotgun passing attack around Bridgewater that Manning ran in Indianapolis? I don't think Manning makes a good example because he's been such an exceptional talent.

Mothman wrote: Maybe... but I think that would depend on the situation. I fully grasp the risk of asking him to be more aggressive but again, I don't think anyone is asking him him to press or play recklessly.

It's professional football. He needs to be able to play from the pocket as a dropback passer. He needs to be able to read a defense and make more plays down the field and learning to do so, mistakes and all, is a necessary part of his development. If he just stays in "safe mode", he's basically a middling backup quarterback in starter's shoes.

It absolutely amazes me that suggesting one of the least productive passers in the league needs to be more productive causes such intense consternation among Vikings fans. What, exactly, is unfair about expecting an NFL QB to be able to play under center, throw downfield, pass for more than 12-14 TDs in a season, etc.? His coaches clearly want him to do more, what's wrong with us wanting it too?

Because I have yet to see the Coaches say that. I see some fans INTERPRETING what the coaches saying to suit their tastes but what I have seen, read, and heard is that they are hoping to hit on a few more of the shots they are taking. The closest I have seen to them wanting him to take more risks is that they think he is holding on to the ball too long. If I missed a presser let me know, its entirely possible (damn you work!

As far as the under center thing goes. He can... He just plays much better in Shotgun... Just like AP in reverse... Why not play to his strengths a La Peyton Manning for 95% of his career snaps?

Disclaimer, I am saying we and such but I am not speaking for anyone other than myself.

A lot of the consternation I would believe comes from what some of us probably see as "wanting our cake, and eating it too" Teddy is suppose to take care of the ball But he also has to connect on deep and naturally more risky plays, at will. AP needs to get his carries to get his yards and move the chains, but we also need more Passing Yards. We need more Rushing and more Passing Yards, even when we win.

To put it in another way it probably comes down to fans who love the game and know about the game disagreeing about what is to be expected from Teddy and some of us collectively sighing and wanting to When we read what, to us, amounts to

"I get he's a second year Quarterback BUT proceeds to list a laundry list of things "we" believe to be utterly unrealistic of a second year QB playing with a RB having a historic season and a stout defense"


I believe that Teddy has issues to work out. His deep ball is concerning. But so is our Oline and so is the fact that it seems that Diggs is our only receiver that can create regular separation. He is being very careful with the ball, I think a direct result of the desire not to LOSE the game with turnovers. I believe that he needs to trust his receivers a little bit more and take a slightly higher percentage of risks. I am heartened by the fact that the few times its fallen to him he has played well this year. Denver, Chicago, Detroit. Say what you will but if he played at those levels all game/season long we wouldn't have anything to complain about. We have seen him maintain high level play throughout full drives and then some. He has shown he can do it and to me its baffling how short a memory we have about those things. Apart from regularly hitting the deep ball he has shown he can do everything. That to me is more than enough reason to give him the rest of this year and off season to see if he can start to find his rhythm more regularly and consistently. As far as the Ponder comparisons I think that is just a matter us all being Vikings fans and seeking out the worst case scenario right away to soften the blow before it finds us.

Mothman wrote: Peterson's had positive runs from the shotgun this season and throughout his career. It's not like he can't do it but it's a passing formation. He's less effective out of it because it makes it easier for defenses to defend him. The run options from that formation are more limited and tend to be based on deception. However, it's harder to deceive a defense with Peterson in the shotgun because they still understand he's the biggest offensive threat on the field. He remains a high priority.
He also had tools and played at a level Bridgewater can't begin to approach.
Do you honestly think the Vikings can build the kind of shotgun passing attack around Bridgewater that Manning ran in Indianapolis? I don't think Manning makes a good example because he's been such an exceptional talent.

I don't get why everyone is talking like Teddy sits down on the field and scratches his head when we goes under center. He can play from under center, hes just better in shotgun. I CAN bat switch but my Average and my Power is better from the left side. Its not zero sum. why would ANYONE actively choose the worse option or when they do "punish" the person who is forced to not play in their comfort zone. EVERY QB has preferences and an imbalance of skills. Why is Teddy the first to every be told me must do everything equally well, all the time?

Mothman wrote: Peterson's had positive runs from the shotgun this season and throughout his career. It's not like he can't do it but it's a passing formation. He's less effective out of it because it makes it easier for defenses to defend him. The run options from that formation are more limited and tend to be based on deception. However, it's harder to deceive a defense with Peterson in the shotgun because they still understand he's the biggest offensive threat on the field. He remains a high priority.
He also had tools and played at a level Bridgewater can't begin to approach.
Do you honestly think the Vikings can build the kind of shotgun passing attack around Bridgewater that Manning ran in Indianapolis? I don't think Manning makes a good example because he's been such an exceptional talent.

Another thing to keep in mind when talking about the Denver pass/rush attack is that they recently used the "pistol" formation as a compromise to get the run game going without causing the passing game to suffer, several other teams have used this to great success at one point or another (SF,Seattle) but comparing Teddy to anyone other than 2 y QB's and Ponder types is like comparing dirt to beer (or grape juice to wine for a less drastic comparison).

*things of note when AD is in the button he is back to at least pistol position but behind instead of the side. Teddy does have skills I won't argue that, but at one point so didn't Ponder. I just think the Vikings don't know how to properly utilize QB's.

Lastly I am critical of his play but I also haven't written him off either the rest of the season will be the deciding factor of Teddy's fate not just in our mind but probably also his career.

Skoltastic_Voyage wrote:Lastly I am critical of his play but I also haven't written him off either the rest of the season will be the deciding factor of Teddy's fate not just in our mind but probably also his career.

Writing off Teddy (regardless of the outcome) after this season is still way too premature.

First, he may be doing exactly what Coach Zimmer wants him to do. Zimmer loves that Teddy doesn't care about personal stats and only cares about winning. Teddy is currently 34th in the league in passing attempts per game. We haven't needed to put up a gigantic passing attack at all this year yet while AD is the rushing champ. This is definitely a chicken or the egg type scenario in that you could ask - are we running more because we have AD or are we running more because the coaches don't trust Teddy. As others have pointed out, however, when the coaches ask Teddy to go down and get in scoring position with his arm and legs, he's been pretty dang good at getting us there.

Second, he just turned 23 years old.

If we end up 10-6 but Teddy's stats and fans eyeball test opinion of him don't improve - should we bail on him?

IrishViking wrote:Because I have yet to see the Coaches say that. I see some fans INTERPRETING what the coaches saying to suit their tastes but what I have seen, read, and heard is that they are hoping to hit on a few more of the shots they are taking. The closest I have seen to them wanting him to take more risks is that they think he is holding on to the ball too long. If I missed a presser let me know, its entirely possible (damn you work!

I'm assuming you've seen the quotes from coaches saying they want him to "turn it loose". I'm not sure how else that can be interpreted but I'm open to hearing other interpretations.

As far as the under center thing goes. He can... He just plays much better in Shotgun... Just like AP in reverse... Why not play to his strengths a La Peyton Manning for 95% of his career snaps?

Because he's not Manning. He doesn't have the arm, the experience or the skill set to justify minimizing the contributions of the best RB in football for the sake of putting him in the shotgun 95% of the time. We saw how well that worked in week 1. I don't think the Vikes have the OL or receiving corps to justify that approach either.

I'll bring up the dreaded "C" word (no, not that one) here: coddling. I hate that term but it applies to what we're discussing. If all they do is put him in his most comfortable situation, ask him to play safe, etc. then they won't be developing him so much as indulging and overprotecting him. He needs to grow as a QB.

A lot of the consternation I would believe comes from what some of us probably see as "wanting our cake, and eating it too" Teddy is suppose to take care of the ball But he also has to connect on deep and naturally more risky plays, at will. AP needs to get his carries to get his yards and move the chains, but we also need more Passing Yards. We need more Rushing and more Passing Yards, even when we win.

Of course. That's how teams go from average to good and from good to elite, championship-caliber teams... and nobody is suggesting Bridgewater should be able to "connect on deep and naturally more risky plays at will".

I believe that Teddy has issues to work out. His deep ball is concerning. But so is our Oline and so is the fact that it seems that Diggs is our only receiver that can create regular separation. He is being very careful with the ball, I think a direct result of the desire not to LOSE the game with turnovers. I believe that he needs to trust his receivers a little bit more and take a slightly higher percentage of risks. I am heartened by the fact that the few times its fallen to him he has played well this year. Denver, Chicago, Detroit. Say what you will but if he played at those levels all game/season long we wouldn't have anything to complain about.

That's basically what people are asking of him! I don't think anybody is suggesting it should be "bombs away", just produce. I'll say it for the 100th time (since nobody seems to care anyway): Teddy and this passing game are on a trajectory to be one of the least productive passing games in franchise history. I get that the team is winning but it's just mind-boggling to me that suggesting they do more, that they not be one of the worst passing attacks in Vikings history, is seen as unreasonable. Is it really unreasonable to ask that Bridgewater produce at a higher level than, say, Christian Ponder or Tarvaris Jackson?

We have seen him maintain high level play throughout full drives and then some. He has shown he can do it and to me its baffling how short a memory we have about those things.

I haven't forgotten them. I just want him to expand on them. Any QB drafted in the first round and capable of starting in the NFL should be able to put together some good drives. Finish more drives with TDs. Convert more third downs. Take fewer avoidable sacks. Settle for the check down less easily. Becoming more productive and opening his game up doesn't have to involve reckless play, forced deep throws, etc.

Apart from regularly hitting the deep ball he has shown he can do everything. That to me is more than enough reason to give him the rest of this year and off season to see if he can start to find his rhythm more regularly and consistently.

I can't recall seeing many (if any) reasonable posts suggesting they should just give up on him already. I think he should get the rest of this year and he should be their starting QB next year too. I don't want to give up on him, I want to see him play better.

TSonn wrote: Writing off Teddy (regardless of the outcome) after this season is still way too premature.

First, he may be doing exactly what Coach Zimmer wants him to do. Zimmer loves that Teddy doesn't care about personal stats and only cares about winning. Teddy is currently 34th in the league in passing attempts per game. We haven't needed to put up a gigantic passing attack at all this year yet while AD is the rushing champ. This is definitely a chicken or the egg type scenario in that you could ask - are we running more because we have AD or are we running more because the coaches don't trust Teddy. As others have pointed out, however, when the coaches ask Teddy to go down and get in scoring position with his arm and legs, he's been pretty dang good at getting us there.

Second, he just turned 23 years old.

If we end up 10-6 but Teddy's stats and fans eyeball test opinion of him don't improve - should we bail on him?

Assuming you're directing this at me so let me take a crack at it.

Teddy's job is to not hurt his team, this is something I have already pointed out he does a fairly good job of (Ponder also had a beast mode AD and was asked to do the same job).
So to the point he is doing exactly what Zimmer asks of him not to mention the big plays aren't dialed in as much with other teams so we're not going to see very flashy
QB play compared to a pass first team.

10 and 6? I would like better than that and this team is capable of better than that. However Teddy has show the ability to win games when needed, and if we're in situations where he needs to step up I would love to see him do so. As you said the sample size isn't quite there.

Now the point about being premature, welp hope you were a Ponder defender because if you were one of the ones calling for his head I hope you understand how hypocritical that would be. After 2 years if he isn't helping his team out significantly I really hope the bring someone else in.

One point you made about trust ... I know Zimmer loves Teddy, not sure about trusting him fully but there isn't a doubt in my mind that Zimmer believes this is our QB at the moment and we have to hope for the best, but it doesn't make Teddy immune to criticism or comparison either. Yeah yeah too many knuckleheads are pissing in the wind waxing on about Teddy's shortcomings and whatnot and we should be concerned but I'm just trying to call it as I see it. I'm not drowning in kool-aid but I also believe this team has enough guts to make a run at the superbowl, #### all the haters... however I only believe that on a superficial level so I'm not crushed when... . Realistically we're doing better than I thought and as long as the W's roll in we're in good hands. Teddy could be a better QB for sure but he isn't given a pass to be our QB in my mind until he shows he has the ability to carry us when called upon consistently (not just a time or two).

TSonn wrote: Writing off Teddy (regardless of the outcome) after this season is still way too premature.

First, he may be doing exactly what Coach Zimmer wants him to do. Zimmer loves that Teddy doesn't care about personal stats and only cares about winning. Teddy is currently 34th in the league in passing attempts per game. We haven't needed to put up a gigantic passing attack at all this year yet while AD is the rushing champ. This is definitely a chicken or the egg type scenario in that you could ask - are we running more because we have AD or are we running more because the coaches don't trust Teddy. As others have pointed out, however, when the coaches ask Teddy to go down and get in scoring position with his arm and legs, he's been pretty dang good at getting us there.

That's the mantra but let's face it, he's asked to "go down and get in scoring position" throughout every game. After all, he's the QB. He runs the offense! Even though they run a lot, rushing plays account for less than half of their offensive plays this season.

If we end up 10-6 but Teddy's stats and fans eyeball test opinion of him don't improve - should we bail on him?

Of course not but there's no reason to view things in those "all or nothing" terms. He needs to get better. There really should be no debate about that. Most of these arguments seem to stem from disagreement about whether he should be playing better now or whether his current level of play and development is perfectly acceptable.

Mothman wrote:
Of course not but there's no reason to view things in those "all or nothing" terms. He needs to get better. There really should be no debate about that. Most of these arguments seem to stem from disagreement about whether he should be playing better now or whether his current level of play and development is perfectly acceptable.

Honestly I'm not so sure that's what we are discussing. To me it seems this discussion is taking many different angles and is getting very mind numbing.

Just boil it down to it's simplest form, all that matters are W's. You can look at this any which way but the truth is we don't know what Sunday will bring. He may put up 300 yards and make us all look like fools or continue to do little and we still win and are pacified once again about his lack of attack. We could lose horrible and he could play well... I give up.

Personally I would like to see more but am mostly content (for now) with W's. However they come.