Cordarrelle Patterson

[PurpleMustReign]

End of story.

...Or is it??...

[The Breeze]

You have an opinion that you can used evidence framed a certain way to support. We can do the same thing with ours.



there is LITERALLY ZERO evidence to support Patterson being wasted because he cant get on the field. And if Zimmer has shown one thing its that he doesn't tolerate sub par work. So if he had even a whiff of a thought that Patterson would help them win more game I think he would be up Norv's #### to get him on the field.


He isn't


End of story.

as to Zimmer not tolerating sub-par work:
not one lineman got benched and Norv still has a job ...for now.
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The problem with your story, IMO, is that it lacks any color whatsoever. Zimmer is 'right'= black
Norv's judgement is infallible = white

It's Zimmer's call unti it isn't...I think he's misguided if he tethers himself to Norv. I don't think he will though.

[Demi]

not one lineman got benched and Norv still has a job

Who were they going to bench them for? They had no one. Combined with the injuries.
Kind of agree on Norv, but then, he was coaching a banged up offensive line and a joke of a receiver group. And Teddy didn't help matters. Would have been nice to move to more of a shotgun based spread...but then his all world running back would whine, cry, and gnash his teeth. And probably get Teddy killed along the way.

[The Breeze]

@Demi
Yeah Norv gets a pass due to there being an empty cupboard along the o-line. Davidson bit the dust for that....I guess he was supposed to make it work.
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In all fairness they deserve an off season to address the mess that is the offense.
Watching this team take 3 of the 4 conference championship teams to the wire with a conservative telegraphed offensive attack, just leaves me feeling that the bigger issue is a total lack of innovation when it comes to scoring TDs vs FGs.

[mondry]

Shrug, at one point we lead the league in 7 step drops while having the worst O-line in the league so that seems pretty questionable.

[slapnut19]

Shrug, at one point we lead the league in 7 step drops while having the worst O-line in the league so that seems pretty questionable.

i agree, but look at how he changed things for the cardinal game and the rest of the season. to me teddy looked like a different qb. much more efficient and the offense really took off. i'm sure norv is very stubborn when it comes to his system, but we've seen him alter his scheme several times in two years to adjust to teddy. granted he waited a little too long this season.

[IrishViking]

as to Zimmer not tolerating sub-par work:
not one lineman got benched and Norv still has a job ...for now.
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The problem with your story, IMO, is that it lacks any color whatsoever. Zimmer is 'right'= black
Norv's judgement is infallible = white

It's Zimmer's call unti it isn't...I think he's misguided if he tethers himself to Norv. I don't think he will though.

And he fired his Oline coach because he wasn't happy.

See, look... I have evidence to support my claim too... Imagine that.

[losperros]

And he fired his Oline coach because he wasn't happy.

See, look... I have evidence to support my claim too... Imagine that.

Good point. You have evidence to support Zimmer fired his offensive line coach. That's because it really happened.

OTOH, there is LITERALLY ZERO evidence to support Patterson not being talented, not being able to be explosive with the ball in his hands, not showing his skills (including catching the ball) during his rookie season, or not doing a great job returning kicks when he was given a chance last year. And I think Zimmer would agree because he's a smart guy, and he keeps saying he hasn't given up hope on Patterson (and he's acknowledged CJ's ability as a returner).

I guess I'll decide for myself when an "end of story" dynamic reveals itself. Just my two cents.

[IrishViking]

Good point. You have evidence to support Zimmer fired his offensive line coach. That's because it really happened.

OTOH, there is LITERALLY ZERO evidence to support Patterson not being talented, not being able to be explosive with the ball in his hands, not showing his skills (including catching the ball) during his rookie season, or not doing a great job returning kicks when he was given a chance last year. And I think Zimmer would agree because he's a smart guy, and he keeps saying he hasn't given up hope on Patterson (and he's acknowledged CJ's ability as a returner).

I guess I'll decide for myself when an "end of story" dynamic reveals itself. Just my two cents.

Except its already been pointed out that he got nearly the same amount of touches in his dynamic year as he did in his far less dynamic following season. I mean do your Patterson lines of coke all you want but he isn't in and there is a reason beyond Norv and Zim dont understand their players as well as you do.

[Mothman]

Except its already been pointed out that he got nearly the same amount of touches in his dynamic year as he did in his far less dynamic following season. I mean do your Patterson lines of coke all you want but he isn't in and there is a reason beyond Norv and Zim dont understand their players as well as you do.

The "lines of coke" stuff is a bit much.

In 2014, Patterson was thrust into a new role (split end) in a new offense and used unimaginatively. He played through a hip injury and with Peterson out, he was typically the biggest threat to make a big play on the field, which made plays that utilized deception to get him in space with the football more difficult to pull off (it's probably not a coincidence that his biggest game of 2014 was also the only game in which Peterson played). They ran him on a lot of deep routes and seam routes, most of which didn't yield much. Those weren't his best routes and several times, when he did get open down the field, everybody's favorite QB missed him. he seemed to struggle to fully grasp his role in the offense and that's obviously one of the reasons he lost it.

This debate has basically been a "faith in Zimmer" discussion for months now, which is why it never goes anywhere. Fans who "believe" in Zimmer seem to have the utmost confidence in his judgment when it comes to personnel. Those of us who don't share that level of confidence in his judgment question why a player with obvious playmaking ability (yes, there IS evidence that Patterson is being wasted) didn't get more than a few touches on offense all year when that offense obviously struggled to make big plays and score points. There's no way to know who is ultimately right and assumptions abound about what's going on behind the scenes because we have very little concrete information.

The actual "end of story" moment probably won't arrive until Patterson's contract is up.

[autobon7]

The "lines of coke" stuff is a bit much.

In 2014, Patterson was thrust into a new role (split end) in a new offense and used unimaginatively. He played through a hip injury and with Peterson out, he was typically the biggest threat to make a big play on the field, which made plays that utilized deception to get him in space with the football more difficult to pull off (it's probably not a coincidence that his biggest game of 2014 was also the only game in which Peterson played). They ran him on a lot of deep routes and seam routes, most of which didn't yield much. Those weren't his best routes and several times, when he did get open down the field, everybody's favorite QB missed him. he seemed to struggle to fully grasp his role in the offense and that's obviously one of the reasons he lost it.

This debate has basically been a "faith in Zimmer" discussion for months now, which is why it never goes anywhere. Fans who "believe" in Zimmer seem to have the utmost confidence in his judgment when it comes to personnel. Those of us who don't share that level of confidence in his judgment question why a player with obvious playmaking ability (yes, there IS evidence that Patterson is being wasted) didn't get more than a few touches on offense all year when that offense obviously struggled to make big plays and score points. There's no way to know who is ultimately right and assumptions abound about what's going on behind the scenes because we have very little concrete information.

The actual "end of story" moment probably won't arrive until Patterson's contract is up.

Well said Jim.......also agree that the "lines of coke" statement is a bit much. It's ok to disagree but lets remain civilized........kool-aid would have worked just fine.

[The Breeze]

My intent is to move away from the ingrained belief that CP has to start at WR to be of any significant use for this offense in terms of adding a serious playmaker and scoring threat.
The fact that his open field running, strength and flat out speed would not be deemed worth tinkering with in the face of what all evidence suggests is a woefully pitiful offense in terms of scoring TDs, is a head scratcher at least and a woeful waste of a serious resource at worst.
He was a legit fcactor on offense before Norv took over and tried to plug him into his system. TB doesn't exactly strike me as a good fit for Norv's system either. It took 14 weeks before McKinnon, who is arguably the most versatile player on that side of the ball, started to see some real opportuities to help the team.
The Seahwaks revamped their offensive attack at midseason to take advantage of what their QB does best....mainly because their o-line blew chunks at what they were trying to do. The Panthers deploy an offense that caters to their playmakers stengths...therefore they can actually attack defenses rather than whatever it is the Viking offense does.
I'm not saying they could have beat CAR in the NFCC...but they very well could have been there had they been able to just score a TD. The huge advantage that Rudolph had over Chancellor wasn't even evident til the final drive of the game because they never looked once at it til then. There is a good possibility that if they had worked that situaton early and often it would have helped create more room for AD and everyone on offense. The designed passes to AD didn't happen til midway through the 4th and they were extremely effective until he fumbled. It's a one game sample...but a season long trend.
Norv is sloth-like at adapting in this fashion. As a HC his teams were notorious for awful, slow starts to the season, requiring incredible comebacks just to get in the playoffs, with rosters loaded with talent. Aside from the Cowboy teams, built by Jones and Johnson mind you, Norv has done little with the talent he's been handed, at every stop. The Chargers were a perennial AFCC contender before he got there and his philosophy and system did nothing to improve that franchise at all.
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It reamins to be seen if fixing the O-line will be the cure all for the 'Norvous System'...assuming that they'll even be able to pull that off in short fashion. It's been reported that TB has had gripes about the offense and there is a possibilty, IMO, that bringing in Shurmur has some Spielman fingerprints on it.
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I think, out of the better teams in the league, the Vikings offense, (the way it's called and run) is closet in comparison to the Broncos, but TB is more than just a few years away from displaying the acume of a 38 yr old Manning.
I don't think the talent they have under center or at wideout suits that style. Even AD is less of a fit than McKinnon for it.
Hopefully TB proves me competely wrong...but until then I see it as a systemic failure that will become more agregious the longer it continues unchanged.

[mondry]

The "lines of coke" stuff is a bit much.

In 2014, Patterson was thrust into a new role (split end) in a new offense and used unimaginatively. He played through a hip injury and with Peterson out, he was typically the biggest threat to make a big play on the field, which made plays that utilized deception to get him in space with the football more difficult to pull off (it's probably not a coincidence that his biggest game of 2014 was also the only game in which Peterson played). They ran him on a lot of deep routes and seam routes, most of which didn't yield much. Those weren't his best routes and several times, when he did get open down the field, everybody's favorite QB missed him. he seemed to struggle to fully grasp his role in the offense and that's obviously one of the reasons he lost it.

This debate has basically been a "faith in Zimmer" discussion for months now, which is why it never goes anywhere. Fans who "believe" in Zimmer seem to have the utmost confidence in his judgment when it comes to personnel. Those of us who don't share that level of confidence in his judgment question why a player with obvious playmaking ability (yes, there IS evidence that Patterson is being wasted) didn't get more than a few touches on offense all year when that offense obviously struggled to make big plays and score points. There's no way to know who is ultimately right and assumptions abound about what's going on behind the scenes because we have very little concrete information.

The actual "end of story" moment probably won't arrive until Patterson's contract is up.

Guess I'm one of the ones who has faith in zimmer but still questions why Patterson is being wasted so we do exist! Even if we want to fully place the blame on Zimmer for this, he's done so much good that something like this doesn't just erase all of the positives imo. This post is more about the idea that it's Zimmer's fault than whether patterson is or isn't being wasted so keep that in mind.

You're right in that if he wanted to he could go to Norv and say "Patterson plays over Wallace or your gone!" but I'm just not sure how realistic it is for a HC to do something like that.

Even if he did and Norv obliged what kind of situation does that create? We all know Patterson isn't a real WR at this point but for those of us in this camp we certainly believe he could be useful in the right role but under the circumstances does Norv go out of his way to try and make Patterson look good? Seems he'd be better off asking him to fill a mike wallace role, watching him fail at it, and then getting his way of removing patterson from the field again.

I'm not trying to say norv is that malicious but we do know he's extremely stubborn about his offense and how it's suppose to be run in his mind. It might play out that way without any malicious intent. So if Patterson still has issues (which it seems likely he would) playing the #1 WR mike wallace role that would hurt us.

But maybe there's more of a middle ground? He could say "I want 5 plays a game designed to get patterson the ball, I don't care how it's done" and something like that could work? What EXACTLY are you guys who say it's zimmer's fault, expecting him to do / say to norv?

[Mothman]

Guess I'm one of the ones who has faith in zimmer but still questions why Patterson is being wasted so we do exist!

A rare species!

Even if we want to fully place the blame on Zimmer for this, he's done so much good that something like this doesn't just erase all of the positives imo. This post is more about the idea that it's Zimmer's fault than whether patterson is or isn't being wasted so keep that in mind.

You're right in that if he wanted to he could go to Norv and say "Patterson plays over Wallace or your gone!" but I'm just not sure how realistic it is for a HC to do something like that.

I seriously doubt it would be necessary to handle it in such a drastic, threatening manner.

Even if he did and Norv obliged what kind of situation does that create? We all know Patterson isn't a real WR at this point but for those of us in this camp we certainly believe he could be useful in the right role but under the circumstances does Norv go out of his way to try and make Patterson look good?

I don't think it should be a question of making him look good but rather a question of finding ways to generate more production on offense and help the team.

I'm not trying to say norv is that malicious but we do know he's extremely stubborn about his offense and how it's suppose to be run in his mind. It might play out that way without any malicious intent. So if Patterson still has issues (which it seems likely he would) playing the #1 WR mike wallace role that would hurt us.

But maybe there's more of a middle ground? He could say "I want 5 plays a game designed to get patterson the ball, I don't care how it's done" and something like that could work? What EXACTLY are you guys who say it's zimmer's fault, expecting him to do / say to norv?

As I believe I've said before, I'm not really interested in assigning fault when it comes to this subject. My interest is in seeing an obviously talented player's ability actually used for the benefit of the team, in seeing an expensive asset (in terms of draft resources) used for more than kickoff returns and in getting a better understanding of what, specifically, has been going on behind the scenes. I realize the latter is probably never going to happen. As for the former, I think the solution depends on the exact nature of the problem but if they don't want to start him, one potential approach would be to design a limited set of plays for him that make good use of his skills and abilities. Coaches have been doing that with players for decades so it's not exactly an unusual idea.

[The Breeze]

@Mondry
I don't see this as a Zimmer issue at all.
I expect Zimmer to tell Norv, 'Score some points, get this offense rolling, that is your job after all'.
It's on Norv to do that. The suggestion of using CP in an ambiguous way is merely an idea that could help Norv out in that department.
Ultimately the overall success or lack thereof on offense will force Zimer's hand. I think it would be poor form to try and micro manage individual player scenarios from an absolute stand point.
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IMO,CP doesn't represent the shortcomings of this offense, he is part of a possible solution.
It's on Norv. Some of us believe that in time with a better line and QB play he'll win out. Others believe he is a dead man walking. And everything in between. It's a compelling situation because of how much potential this team is displaying.
My feel is that the longer it takes for this issue to resolve, one way or the other, the less chance they will have of meeting that potential. I literally think this offense has to take huge strides next season for Norv to keep his job.
I don't even care if CP has a significant role or not as long as it gets better.