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VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:17 pm KOC and KAM bet big on McCarthy turning out to be good. I want to believe they made the decisions they made because they objectively evaluated him and what they were seeing from him in terms of his preparation and performance, but a part of me wonders if they just convinced themselves that they could make McCarthy into an impact QB because of where they took him in the draft.

I think it was Stumphunter that posted something about a QB's first six starts in the NFL effectively predicting the level of QB the player would become. It didn't matter if the QB sat for a bit before getting on the field or where he was drafted. What mattered was how he performed in his early career once handed the starting job. A QB who would go on to excel in the pros generally excelled in those first six games, while QBs who would fail or be average showed those traits in those first six games. It is two games in and other than one quarter McCarthy looks like he's not even close to excelling.

KOC could find himself in a really tough position in the not-to-distant future. He lets Darnold and Jones walk and passes on Aaron Rodgers for McCarthy. After two pretty crappy performances he has to turn to Wentz who, if he starts moving the team and having success, makes it very unlikely McCarthy will get another chance to start this year barring injury. KOC's job is to win games and compete, but if he finds himself in that situation one wonders what that says about his ability to evaluate QB talent.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:17 pm KOC and KAM bet big on McCarthy turning out to be good. I want to believe they made the decisions they made because they objectively evaluated him and what they were seeing from him in terms of his preparation and performance, but a part of me wonders if they just convinced themselves that they could make McCarthy into an impact QB because of where they took him in the draft.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:17 pm I think it was Stumphunter that posted something about a QB's first six starts in the NFL effectively predicting the level of QB the player would become. It didn't matter if the QB sat for a bit before getting on the field or where he was drafted. What mattered was how he performed in his early career once handed the starting job. A QB who would go on to excel in the pros generally excelled in those first six games, while QBs who would fail or be average showed those traits in those first six games. It is two games in and other than one quarter McCarthy looks like he's not even close to excelling.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:17 pm KOC could find himself in a really tough position in the not-to-distant future. He lets Darnold and Jones walk and passes on Aaron Rodgers for McCarthy. After two pretty crappy performances he has to turn to Wentz who, if he starts moving the team and having success, makes it very unlikely McCarthy will get another chance to start this year barring injury. KOC's job is to win games and compete, but if he finds himself in that situation one wonders what that says about his ability to evaluate QB talent.

psjordan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 5:49 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:17 pm KOC could find himself in a really tough position in the not-to-distant future. He lets Darnold and Jones walk and passes on Aaron Rodgers for McCarthy. After two pretty crappy performances he has to turn to Wentz who, if he starts moving the team and having success, makes it very unlikely McCarthy will get another chance to start this year barring injury. KOC's job is to win games and compete, but if he finds himself in that situation one wonders what that says about his ability to evaluate QB talent.

This one I completely disagree with. I think for this season - barring complete and total ineptitude (and injury) - the starting job is 1000% McCarthy's. There is no way no how they'd throw him on the trash pile in less than 15+ starts - WITH the starting OL they planned on. I really don't see ANY QB doing well behind the MASH unit we are throwing out there on the OL. The absolute last thought I have is "what if Wentz plays TOO well?". Just is not going to happen. I think he'll have some success, yes, just based on veteran wily play. But "good-to-great" QB play - behind THAT OL? Not worried about it.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 1:04 am You're probably right. It is too early to give up on McCarthy given all they've invested in him to this point. But there is something nagging me about the way he's played thus far. To some degree I'm seeing the same things with Dallas Turner who is another guy they invested a lot in. Neither player is showing what makes them worth that confidence the coaches seem to have in them.

psjordan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 11:07 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 1:04 am You're probably right. It is too early to give up on McCarthy given all they've invested in him to this point. But there is something nagging me about the way he's played thus far. To some degree I'm seeing the same things with Dallas Turner who is another guy they invested a lot in. Neither player is showing what makes them worth that confidence the coaches seem to have in them.

Oh I agree with this assessment - I've been trumpeting Turner's lack of ... well, lack of anything productive after seeing him play in person several times. I'm absolutely putting him in the "he's gonna be a dud so just mentally move on now" category.

McCarthy I'm willing to wait and see. He's at least shown SOME moxie, where I think Turner has shown squat. And QB can be tough to learn and grow at the NFL level. But if McCarthy shows nothing this year, he's likely bound for the dud pile and he and Kwasi can look for jobs elsewhere.

Oh and let me add that guys like Baker Mayfield are proof that sometimes it takes awhile to "get it" as a QB in the NFL. Maybe he's an exception, but it gives guys like McCarthy a much longer leash.

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 1:19 pm That was Dallas Turners first actual start. He had 5 tackles, 1 sack, 2 QB pressures, and 1 QB hit.

Not the best play someone could possibly have but for his first start it's not bad.

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 1:19 pm

psjordan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 11:07 am
Oh I agree with this assessment - I've been trumpeting Turner's lack of ... well, lack of anything productive after seeing him play in person several times. I'm absolutely putting him in the "he's gonna be a dud so just mentally move on now" category.

McCarthy I'm willing to wait and see. He's at least shown SOME moxie, where I think Turner has shown squat. And QB can be tough to learn and grow at the NFL level. But if McCarthy shows nothing this year, he's likely bound for the dud pile and he and Kwasi can look for jobs elsewhere.

Oh and let me add that guys like Baker Mayfield are proof that sometimes it takes awhile to "get it" as a QB in the NFL. Maybe he's an exception, but it gives guys like McCarthy a much longer leash.

That was Dallas Turners first actual start. He had 5 tackles, 1 sack, 2 QB pressures, and 1 QB hit.

Not the best play someone could possibly have but for his first start it's not bad.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 2:32 pm

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 1:19 pm That was Dallas Turners first actual start. He had 5 tackles, 1 sack, 2 QB pressures, and 1 QB hit.

Not the best play someone could possibly have but for his first start it's not bad.

The sack was kind of handed to him though by other pressure created by good coverage. A sack is a sack but it wasn't like he beat his man clean and created the sack, or even the pressure.

I was honestly a little dismayed by how the Vikings defense played against the Falcons. The Falcons had zero interest in trying to throw deep and were obvious when running the ball and yet the Vikings seemingly could not stop either thing all game. The short routes were nearly always wide open while their running backs often had comfortable holes to run through. Pace was shown guessing several times on run plays and other times he just missed tackles. Not a good game for him or by the standards he has set. I remember 2-3 plays where Bijan either ran outside or bounced the run outside where Turner allowed himself to get sucked inside and failed to seal the edge. The lack of any pressure from the secondary on the short routes was surprising. Flores seemed content to sit back in his standard coverages and Penix just kept biting off small chunks of yardage.

The only defender who seemed capable of actually doing his job in that game was Redmond. Others made plays but Redmond was consistently offering resistance. I'm not sure if that was what KOC was talking about with every guy needing to do his job (he was probably more focused on the offensive struggles), but I saw a defense full of free lancers who were either content to sit back and let someone else make the play or were overly aggressive/unaware and took themselves out of the play. The results speak for themselves with 218 yards conceded on the ground and lopsided stats against. Yes, the offense didn't help them by also being completely inept, but on rewatch that was really poor defensive play on the part of the Vikings. Had the Falcons not been so sloppy when they got into the red zone that game would have been a blowout.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 2:32 pmThe sack was kind of handed to him though by other pressure created by good coverage. A sack is a sack but it wasn't like he beat his man clean and created the sack, or even the pressure.

I was honestly a little dismayed by how the Vikings defense played against the Falcons. The Falcons had zero interest in trying to throw deep and were obvious when running the ball and yet the Vikings seemingly could not stop either thing all game. The short routes were nearly always wide open while their running backs often had comfortable holes to run through. Pace was shown guessing several times on run plays and other times he just missed tackles. Not a good game for him or by the standards he has set. I remember 2-3 plays where Bijan either ran outside or bounced the run outside where Turner allowed himself to get sucked inside and failed to seal the edge. The lack of any pressure from the secondary on the short routes was surprising. Flores seemed content to sit back in his standard coverages and Penix just kept biting off small chunks of yardage.

The only defender who seemed capable of actually doing his job in that game was Redmond. Others made plays but Redmond was consistently offering resistance. I'm not sure if that was what KOC was talking about with every guy needing to do his job (he was probably more focused on the offensive struggles), but I saw a defense full of free lancers who were either content to sit back and let someone else make the play or were overly aggressive/unaware and took themselves out of the play. The results speak for themselves with 218 yards conceded on the ground and lopsided stats against. Yes, the offense didn't help them by also being completely inept, but on rewatch that was really poor defensive play on the part of the Vikings. Had the Falcons not been so sloppy when they got into the red zone that game would have been a blowout.

Cliff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 9:20 am To me it looked like the defense played "bend don't break" perfectly all game long until the end. They gave up yards but not touch downs. That's not to say they planned to give up plays, and especially towards the end of the game when they couldn't stop the run when they really needed to, but overall I thought the defense did a great job most of the game. Especially considering there were 4 turnovers, an unconverted 4th down, and they were on the field 13 more minutes than Atlanta.

Cliff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 9:20 am If the offense had done it's part this would have been a win. A lesser defense would have given up a lot more points. It would have been a crazy embarrassing score.