Vikings Message Board.Com

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:40 am The entire thing is the very definition of irony.

Look, I feel bad about what happened to him last year. He was playing elite football, and the Achilles injury was the kind of thing you don’t wish on your worst enemy.

But I don’t feel one bit sorry for Kirk overall. He’s had a long career in the NFL. He’s made nearly $300 million with another $100 million coming, guaranteed, yet he’s won a single playoff game in 12 years. He’ll never get a vote for Canton unless they create a special Lifetime Negotiator award.

When it’s all said and done, here’s a guy who hasn’t had a serious threat to his position on any roster since he was teammates with RGIII, bellyaching over his new team bringing in a first-round rookie. Color me a deep shade of “I Don’t Care.”

I’m over Kirk. Maybe its just me, but it was a pretty easy breakup.

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:56 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:18 pm

I thought KAM would cut ties with Kirk and start looking for his franchise QB when he first took the GM job with the Vikings. That was when there was a natural break in the contract situation IIRC and would have been the best time for the team to change direction at QB. When KAM extended him for another 2 years I figured he didn't feel like it was the right time to make a move at QB and/or he wanted to make a smoother, more considered move at the position or the Wilfs were pressuring him or all three. And then this year it became obvious that although the Vikings intended to make a move at QB over the longer term, KAM apparently still wanted to keep Cousins around over the shorter term.

But like you, I look at that playoff record where it really mattered and wondered why KAM kept Cousins around at all. The other games where Cousins consistently shrank in the moments where he needed to shine. Yeah, he could play well at times, but he never seemed to play well when the Vikings most needed him to be the difference.

For me, breaking up with Cousins wasn't hard at all. He was and always will be fool's gold. And if anything, the Falcons drafting Penix tells me even they know that. While they bet a lot on Cousins even they couldn't pass up the chance to draft someone who might actually be capable of changing the outcome of a game at QB. Drafting an older rookie QB like Penix with the 8th pick in a draft and signing him to a 4-5 year rookie deal just after inking an older vet QB coming off a major injury to a 4 year deal is NOT hedging for the future even if that is what they are saying publicly. That is saying "we think we spotted a major talent at QB and couldn't pass him up". Penix will get his chances to win that starting job, and if he shows up Cousins, Cousins will be sitting on the outside looking in even with all that guaranteed money in his deal.

I openly wondered on this board a few months ago whether Cousins would ever regret making the move to Atlanta. Even though I am happy he is no longer the Vikings QB, he had a good thing going here even if it appeared to finally be coming to an end. I thought if Cousins did regret making the move at some point it would be down the road a bit, but it appears like that day of reckoning might have come before he even played a down for the Falcons.

The only playoff win he ever had it was a road dog win and as usual Zim's D didn't feel like playing. That's only one example and there are others. After watching us pass on Rodgers twice during that draft and drafting nothing I think the Falcons made a smart move. If he was the top player on their board you can't skip that. Obviously he was ranked higher than JJM or Nix on their board. IMO I wouldn't even draft Penix just based on his college history and his choke job in the champ game. But I'm not a scout. But if Penix is a true superstar QB they are set for the next 15 years at the most important position. Cousins can ride the bench until he packs it in and then they can give Penix a monster deal. The Falcons were sick of having nothing at QB and zero chance of getting the playoff revenue so they stacked the roster with a good vet and a potential superstar rookie. They can't compete with that 49er team for a SB berth regardless of QB because they lack the overall talent to make that happen. But they do have a better chance of making the playoffs.

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 6:26 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:56 am
The only playoff win he ever had it was a road dog win and as usual Zim's D didn't feel like playing. That's only one example and there are others. After watching us pass on Rodgers twice during that draft and drafting nothing I think the Falcons made a smart move. If he was the top player on their board you can't skip that. Obviously he was ranked higher than JJM or Nix on their board. IMO I wouldn't even draft Penix just based on his college history and his choke job in the champ game. But I'm not a scout. But if Penix is a true superstar QB they are set for the next 15 years at the most important position. Cousins can ride the bench until he packs it in and then they can give Penix a monster deal. The Falcons were sick of having nothing at QB and zero chance of getting the playoff revenue so they stacked the roster with a good vet and a potential superstar rookie. They can't compete with that 49er team for a SB berth regardless of QB because they lack the overall talent to make that happen. But they do have a better chance of making the playoffs.

It's somewhat cliché to build Kirk up by tearing another aspect of the team down. But, try to be just a little bit objective in your assessment on this one. I'm no Zimmer apologist by any stretch. I'm glad he & Spielman were shown the door. But, the Saints were 13-3. Their offense was top 10 in yards & top 5 in points. Zim's D held them to 20 points. Produced 2 turnovers, 3 sacks & held the Saints to 4-11 on 3rd down conversions. The Vikes' defense did a damn nice job on one of the top offenses in the league.

If you want to harp on Zim for anything in that game it should probably be his nasty habit of playing prevent offense too early in games. The Vikes were up 20-10 going into the 4th quarter. And Zim went in full prevent mode. Conservative offense & punting.

Oh...and Kirk did play damn good too. That OT bomb to Thielen that set up the winning TD in OT was a thing of beauty.

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 7:08 am

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 6:26 am

It's somewhat cliché to build Kirk up by tearing another aspect of the team down. But, try to be just a little bit objective in your assessment on this one. I'm no Zimmer apologist by any stretch. I'm glad he & Spielman were shown the door. But, the Saints were 13-3. Their offense was top 10 in yards & top 5 in points. Zim's D held them to 20 points. Produced 2 turnovers, 3 sacks & held the Saints to 4-11 on 3rd down conversions. The Vikes' defense did a damn nice job on one of the top offenses in the league.

If you want to harp on Zim for anything in that game it should probably be his nasty habit of playing prevent offense too early in games. The Vikes were up 20-10 going into the 4th quarter. And Zim went in full prevent mode. Conservative offense & punting.

Oh...and Kirk did play damn good too. That OT bomb to Thielen that set up the winning TD in OT was a thing of beauty.

Zim's D never did play lights out in the playoffs. Case Keenum's year he surrendered a huge halftime lead and we then had a miracle win to make the champ game. I thought we were SB bound. Everything was breaking our way. A bum QB and No 1 D. Of course he let Foles of all QBs destroy his great D. But I do agree with you Zim's D did play better in that Saint game than I give credit for. Holding a team to 20 is a good not great job on the road. The following week he let that 49er team do whatever they wanted. You can't win that way in a winner takes all event. That was a good read you just posted. Thanks.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:27 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 12:35 pm
Green Bay could go backwards. But they are young and did improve as the year progressed so it don't point towards that. They let Jones go and signed the younger Jacobs. He had 1600 yards 2 years ago and was an all pro. A guy I forgot was D.J. Wonnum he had 8 sacks for us and he's gone also.

I'm not sold on Jordan Love being all that good. The last time I saw a QB throw that many jump passes was when Ponder was the QB of the Vikings. He had decent stats but he doesn't strike me as a future star.

If Caleb Williams works out the Bears will get very good very fast. However, the track record for QBs taken first overall hasn't been all that great, and while Williams is great off script, that can become a huge liability too in the pros. We'll have to see how that works out for the Bears. The Lions are the only team in the North that can comfortably say they've arrived and have the sort of positional stability and track record to indicate they should be good again this year. Although I'm still not sold on Dan Campbell. He reminds me a lot of Mike Tice who could certainly relate to his players and knew the game, but was too driven by emotional responses in games and struggled as a tactician against better opponents.

For the Vikings, QB is THE key. If either Darnold plays up to his ceiling or McCarthy comes in and wows out of the gate, I think the Vikings should be right in the mix. They certainly still have substantial offensive firepower, I think the defense will be better than last year, and KOC has his legs fully under him now. He's got the young, high character QB he can coach up and mold. If QB doesn't pan out for the Vikings this year I'll be looking for evidence of McCarthy's emergence.

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 7:37 am Frickin' Nick Foles!! The Vikings never have that kind of luck. A back-up QB catching fire in the playoffs. Good for him though. I just wish that could happen to the Vikings just once. One Super Bowl Championship is all I ask. I'm not greedy.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 4:51 pm

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 7:37 am Frickin' Nick Foles!! The Vikings never have that kind of luck. A back-up QB catching fire in the playoffs. Good for him though. I just wish that could happen to the Vikings just once. One Super Bowl Championship is all I ask. I'm not greedy.

One could argue that it did happen to the Vikings that same year Nick Foles sold his soul to the devil to have the playoff performance he ended up having. Case Keenum was a little-regarded journeyman 3rd-string QB who ended up being thrust into the starting role and had an incredible year leading the Vikings into that game against Foles and the Eagles. While Foles ended up being the better QB in the playoffs, Keenum's season could only be described as a remarkable deviation from his career to that point. I agree with you it would have been nice for Keenum's good fortune to continue in the playoffs, but I'm not sure the Vikings should have been anywhere near the playoffs that year given how it started with their QBs. I mean, look at this last season as a case-in-point. Cousins goes out and it honestly should have fallen apart immediately for them, but it looked like they might have pulled a rabbit out of the hat with Dobbs for a bit there until it completely imploded. In that 2017 season, that implosion probably should have happened right away and lasted most of the season, but Keenum's improbable performance didn't just stave off that implosion - he actually ended up getting them to the conference championship game.

Funny how both Foles and Keenum just faded away after that. Both went to new teams and pretty much did nothing.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:09 pm Reports coming out now have Kirk making peace with the selection of Penix by the Falcoms.

Kirk Cousins insists he isn\'t angry with the Atlanta Falcons for drafting Michael Penix, Jr.

Cousins was asked on the \'Bussin\' with the Boys\' podcast if there\'s beef between him and the Falcons over the draft.

\"No, I don\'t think there can be. I don\'t think it\'s helpful,\" the quarterback said.

\"We\'re trying to win the Super Bowl and it\'s hard enough. So let\'s all be on the same page and let\'s go try to win the Super Bowl.\"

Via \\\'Bussin\\\' with the Boys\\\' Podcast

IMO Kirk had a bit of a right to be upset over the Falcons using pick 8 to draft his replacement when they could have used it on Dallas Turner to help them win now.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:09 pm Reports coming out now have Kirk making peace with the selection of Penix by the Falcoms.



So let\'s all be on the same page



IMO Kirk had a bit of a right to be upset over the Falcons using pick 8 to draft his replacement when they could have used it on Dallas Turner to help them win now.

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 6:58 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 4:51 pm

One could argue that it did happen to the Vikings that same year Nick Foles sold his soul to the devil to have the playoff performance he ended up having. Case Keenum was a little-regarded journeyman 3rd-string QB who ended up being thrust into the starting role and had an incredible year leading the Vikings into that game against Foles and the Eagles. While Foles ended up being the better QB in the playoffs, Keenum's season could only be described as a remarkable deviation from his career to that point. I agree with you it would have been nice for Keenum's good fortune to continue in the playoffs, but I'm not sure the Vikings should have been anywhere near the playoffs that year given how it started with their QBs. I mean, look at this last season as a case-in-point. Cousins goes out and it honestly should have fallen apart immediately for them, but it looked like they might have pulled a rabbit out of the hat with Dobbs for a bit there until it completely imploded. In that 2017 season, that implosion probably should have happened right away and lasted most of the season, but Keenum's improbable performance didn't just stave off that implosion - he actually ended up getting them to the conference championship game.

Funny how both Foles and Keenum just faded away after that. Both went to new teams and pretty much did nothing.

Yeah, luck was on our side for a good portion of the 2017 regular season. And not just Case Keenum. There was a laundry list of mediocre to poor QBs that Zim's defense got to play against as well. That 2017 #1 defensive ranking was built on some of those mediocre, opposing QBs. That defense was a bit of a paper tiger really. Brees & the Saints pretty much exposed that defense in the 2nd half of the Divisional Playoff game. And Philly just down right embarrassed that defense the entire NFC Championship game.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:19 am

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 6:58 pm

Yeah, luck was on our side for a good portion of the 2017 regular season. And not just Case Keenum. There was a laundry list of mediocre to poor QBs that Zim's defense got to play against as well. That 2017 #1 defensive ranking was built on some of those mediocre, opposing QBs. That defense was a bit of a paper tiger really. Brees & the Saints pretty much exposed that defense in the 2nd half of the Divisional Playoff game. And Philly just down right embarrassed that defense the entire NFC Championship game.

Zim's defense always thrived on the mediocre and bottom feeder teams. That's one reason why he won many games. That game against the Lions when we sacked Stafford 10 times and beat him to a pulp is a great example. That was the good old Lions. Now they have one of the top OLs so it's a different story. That 49er playoff game when they pounded the rock for 186 yards was another joke. Dominated at the point. How is it even possible to give up that many yards rushing for a playoff team? They folded. The game that defined Zim's HC career for me was his first playoff loss 10-9 to the Hawks. It was brutal weather conditions which eliminated much of the offense. Teddy drove us down the field for the GW FG attempt and of course Walsh hooked a 22 yarder for the miss. It's not true but I think every loss was on a miss FG attempt under Zim. That was his early 70s style of football. The O only has 2 jobs. Burn the clock and get into FG range. That's why he always liked having a stiff at QB. Made his D look more important. He forgot the dominate J Tucker type of kicker to make his vision work.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:19 am

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 6:58 pm

Yeah, luck was on our side for a good portion of the 2017 regular season. And not just Case Keenum. There was a laundry list of mediocre to poor QBs that Zim's defense got to play against as well. That 2017 #1 defensive ranking was built on some of those mediocre, opposing QBs. That defense was a bit of a paper tiger really. Brees & the Saints pretty much exposed that defense in the 2nd half of the Divisional Playoff game. And Philly just down right embarrassed that defense the entire NFC Championship game.

Zim's defense always thrived on the mediocre and bottom feeder teams. That's one reason why he won many games. That game against the Lions when we sacked Stafford 10 times and beat him to a pulp is a great example. That was the good old Lions. Now they have one of the top OLs so it's a different story. That 49er playoff game when they pounded the rock for 186 yards was another joke. Dominated at the point. How is it even possible to give up that many yards rushing for a playoff team? They folded. The game that defined Zim's HC career for me was his first playoff loss 10-9 to the Hawks. It was brutal weather conditions which eliminated much of the offense. Teddy drove us down the field for the GW FG attempt and of course Walsh hooked a 22 yarder for the miss. It's not true but I think every loss was on a miss FG attempt under Zim. That was his early 70s style of football. The O only has 2 jobs. Burn the clock and get into FG range. That's why he always liked having a stiff at QB. Made his D look more important. He forgot the dominate J Tucker type of kicker to make his vision work.

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 9:30 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:19 am
Zim's defense always thrived on the mediocre and bottom feeder teams. That's one reason why he won many games. That game against the Lions when we sacked Stafford 10 times and beat him to a pulp is a great example. That was the good old Lions. Now they have one of the top OLs so it's a different story. That 49er playoff game when they pounded the rock for 186 yards was another joke. Dominated at the point. How is it even possible to give up that many yards rushing for a playoff team? They folded. The game that defined Zim's HC career for me was his first playoff loss 10-9 to the Hawks. It was brutal weather conditions which eliminated much of the offense. Teddy drove us down the field for the GW FG attempt and of course Walsh hooked a 22 yarder for the miss. It's not true but I think every loss was on a miss FG attempt under Zim. That was his early 70s style of football. The O only has 2 jobs. Burn the clock and get into FG range. That's why he always liked having a stiff at QB. Made his D look more important. He forgot the dominate J Tucker type of kicker to make his vision work.

Zimmer took Leslie Fraiser's last place defense and improved it to a top 5 defense until Kirk's contract started coming home to roost in 2019/2020 and the talent on the defense thinned out. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Zimmer-brand football is going to win any Super Bowls but he was consistently fielding highly rated defenses. Sustaining a good defense over 5 or 6 years isn't just beating the bad teams.

To me the problem with Zimmer's defenses are the same we'll have with Flores. All of that crowding the LOS is great as far as keeping the offense guessing what kind of play you're running, but you're constantly forcing guys to drop back into mid-to-deep coverage from there and it's tiring over the course of a game. Zimmer had a lot of 4th quarter collapses and I think that's why.

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:03 am I can't fault the Falcons for being prepared for the future.

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:03 am But, I can fault the Falcons for hastily overpaying a 36 year old QB coming off an Achilles tear before doing their due diligence on picking a QB at #8. Was there really that big of a market for Cousins that they had to sign him within the first 30 minutes of free agency? Who was their competition for Kirk? The Vikings? I think it was pretty clear the Vikings were willing to move on from Kirk unless they got him on a team friendly deal. The Vikings showed patience. The Falcons treated it like the "Buy It Now" option on eBay. You have to wonder if they might end up with buyer's remorse somewhere down the line?