The Rooney Rule

[vikeinmontana]

I know this is Vikings Talk, but I think it applies here.

The Rooney Rule has been in the news a lot this week. Obviously if the allegations Brian Flores is making about the Giants and Broncos are true, then it’s a pretty significant black mark (no pun intended) against the league.

The Vikings did about as well as an organization can do, short of actually hiring a person of color. Two of their four HC finalists were persons of color, and they gave the same exhaustive interview to all candidates. And let’s not forget that they did hire a person of color as their GM.

However, it really should come as no surprise that some teams may have engaged in “sham interviews.” It doesn’t necessarily have to be racially motivated. It’s highly possible that a team sets their sights on a particular coach who happens to be white, but they’re forced to interview a black man because of the Rooney Rule.

The question I’d like to pose today is this: Does the Rooney Rule achieve its desired intent? Or is there a better way?

For a brief time, I used to work for a conservationist magazine. It mainly covered fishing, hunting, camping, etc., but it also had the occasional story about things people and companies were doing to make a positive impact on the environment. I was the writer who did those stories.

During that time, I met a professor named Donald Cell. Dr. Cell had a fairly uncommon field of study: Environmental Economics. The premise, to greatly simplify it, is that companies don’t recycle because it’s more expensive. Given a choice between the expense of recycling against the relative inexpense of sending their waste to the landfill, they’ll choose the landfill. Dr. Cell spent his life’s work developing ways to INCENTIVIZE organizations to recycle. By incentivize, I mean money.

What does environmental economics have to do with the Rooney Rule?

Instead of imposing a rule that’s punitive to teams who don’t interview persons of color, what if there were a way to reward teams that do hire a person of color?

That reward could certainly be financial, and that might be a draw to some teams. But what else could be used as a carrot? Maybe draft picks? If a team got, say, an extra pick at the end of the first round, would that be incentive enough for people to take it seriously?

I don’t know the answer. This is America. Teams should be able to hire who they want. But gosh, if interviewers can show up hung over to talk to a guy they have no intention of hiring (not saying that’s what happened, but it’s hard to deny that it could) … does that really move the Equality Needle?

One time, I was brought in for an interview to be a Creative Director at a big advertising firm. Big job, big money. To be honest, I had no idea how I got the interview. I knew there were dozens of people far more qualified who likely applied. When I got to the interview, I quickly realized why. I had listed an Art Director as a reference, and they wanted to hire HIM, and they were trying to use my friendship to get him to take their calls. The only things they asked me were questions about him. It was so humiliating and insulting. A complete sham. After about 10 minutes, I ended the interview and left. All that to say, I know what it feels like to be the victim of a sham interview. If that was done to Brian Flores or any other candidate, then those teams have only themselves to blame for any punishment that comes down.

But again, is there a better way than The Rooney Rule? I’m interested in your thoughts.

So why don’t we hire coaches based on their qualifications not skin color? Black, white or otherwise?

I think this goes without saying. The issue is that it is a HUGE coincidence that a league that is nearly 60% black; coaches who are black make up about 30% of all staffs. Even with the new hires this week I think we're at 4-5 head coaches who are black. Seems to me those numbers are very low if everyone is in fact getting a fair shot and they're only hiring the "best" candidates.

[J. Kapp 11]

I know this is Vikings Talk, but I think it applies here.

The Rooney Rule has been in the news a lot this week. Obviously if the allegations Brian Flores is making about the Giants and Broncos are true, then it’s a pretty significant black mark (no pun intended) against the league.

The Vikings did about as well as an organization can do, short of actually hiring a person of color. Two of their four HC finalists were persons of color, and they gave the same exhaustive interview to all candidates. And let’s not forget that they did hire a person of color as their GM.

However, it really should come as no surprise that some teams may have engaged in “sham interviews.” It doesn’t necessarily have to be racially motivated. It’s highly possible that a team sets their sights on a particular coach who happens to be white, but they’re forced to interview a black man because of the Rooney Rule.

The question I’d like to pose today is this: Does the Rooney Rule achieve its desired intent? Or is there a better way?

For a brief time, I used to work for a conservationist magazine. It mainly covered fishing, hunting, camping, etc., but it also had the occasional story about things people and companies were doing to make a positive impact on the environment. I was the writer who did those stories.

During that time, I met a professor named Donald Cell. Dr. Cell had a fairly uncommon field of study: Environmental Economics. The premise, to greatly simplify it, is that companies don’t recycle because it’s more expensive. Given a choice between the expense of recycling against the relative inexpense of sending their waste to the landfill, they’ll choose the landfill. Dr. Cell spent his life’s work developing ways to INCENTIVIZE organizations to recycle. By incentivize, I mean money.

What does environmental economics have to do with the Rooney Rule?

Instead of imposing a rule that’s punitive to teams who don’t interview persons of color, what if there were a way to reward teams that do hire a person of color?

That reward could certainly be financial, and that might be a draw to some teams. But what else could be used as a carrot? Maybe draft picks? If a team got, say, an extra pick at the end of the first round, would that be incentive enough for people to take it seriously?

I don’t know the answer. This is America. Teams should be able to hire who they want. But gosh, if interviewers can show up hung over to talk to a guy they have no intention of hiring (not saying that’s what happened, but it’s hard to deny that it could) … does that really move the Equality Needle?

One time, I was brought in for an interview to be a Creative Director at a big advertising firm. Big job, big money. To be honest, I had no idea how I got the interview. I knew there were dozens of people far more qualified who likely applied. When I got to the interview, I quickly realized why. I had listed an Art Director as a reference, and they wanted to hire HIM, and they were trying to use my friendship to get him to take their calls. The only things they asked me were questions about him. It was so humiliating and insulting. A complete sham. After about 10 minutes, I ended the interview and left. All that to say, I know what it feels like to be the victim of a sham interview. If that was done to Brian Flores or any other candidate, then those teams have only themselves to blame for any punishment that comes down.

But again, is there a better way than The Rooney Rule? I’m interested in your thoughts.

So why don’t we hire coaches based on their qualifications not skin color? Black, white or otherwise?

I completely agree.

So are you advocating for the elimination of the Rooney Rule?

[allday1991]

So why don’t we hire coaches based on their qualifications not skin color? Black, white or otherwise?

I think this goes without saying. The issue is that it is a HUGE coincidence that a league that is nearly 60% black; coaches who are black make up about 30% of all staffs. Even with the new hires this week I think we're at 4-5 head coaches who are black. Seems to me those numbers are very low if everyone is in fact getting a fair shot and they're only hiring the "best" candidates.

This is exactly why just taking numbers and trying to base an opinion on such numbers just doesn't work. Just because 60% of nfl players are black means nothing, all this points to is when it comes to "playing' football on the highest level African Americans are better. What about college players? kids who played in little leagues and weren't good enough to make college or NFL team, what is the ratio of black to white then? Just because a player plays a position in the NFL doesn't even mean they want to be a coach, this comes down to personal choice, just like woman tend to choose not to be brick layers maybe black players choose not to be coaches. In fact the two best coaches in the league atm imo are to people who never played football on a very high level however were heavily invested in all aspects of the game from a young age, Andy Reid and Bill Belichick. So my question would be, why would you expect a higher amount of former NFL players to be hired when that doesn't correlate to success as a HC?

[vikeinmontana]

I think this goes without saying. The issue is that it is a HUGE coincidence that a league that is nearly 60% black; coaches who are black make up about 30% of all staffs. Even with the new hires this week I think we're at 4-5 head coaches who are black. Seems to me those numbers are very low if everyone is in fact getting a fair shot and they're only hiring the "best" candidates.

This is exactly why just taking numbers and trying to base an opinion on such numbers just doesn't work. Just because 60% of nfl players are black means nothing, all this points to is when it comes to "playing' football on the highest level African Americans are better. What about college players? kids who played in little leagues and weren't good enough to make college or NFL team, what is the ratio of black to white then? Just because a player plays a position in the NFL doesn't even mean they want to be a coach, this comes down to personal choice, just like woman tend to choose not to be brick layers maybe black players choose not to be coaches. In fact the two best coaches in the league atm imo are to people who never played football on a very high level however were heavily invested in all aspects of the game from a young age, Andy Reid and Bill Belichick. So my question would be, why would you expect a higher amount of former NFL players to be hired when that doesn't correlate to success as a HC?

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

If this was like women not wanting to be bricklayers, it wouldn’t be a discussion. Just like no one is talking about the lack of black people coaching college rodeo. Why it IS a discussion, is because it is black people, who WANT to be black coaches, saying publicly they don’t feel like they are getting the opportunities. I tend to take people at their word for issues I can’t personally deal with as a white man.

I not one time said the percentage of players should correlate to head coaching. But it is relevant, for the made up scenarios above. You know why there are almost no black coaches in college rodeo? Because there are almost no black athletes in college rodeo. I just watched Eric Dickerson on First Take this morning and the percentage of black athletes in the NFL this season is actually higher at almost 80%. Does this mean all those players are destined to be good coaches? Of course not. But are you really suggesting that of all these black players, almost none of them have aspirations of coaching? That would be very surprising to me.

I have never suggested a guy has to play in the nfl to coach the nfl. I assume that experience helps but isn’t necessary. If it was, then 80% of our coaches would be black too.

Like I said I’m not a black guy. I’m a white guy. So when I hear black people feel like they are not getting fair opportunities in the league, I tend to take them for their word. It seems to me there are still issues that could be solved in the year 2022. But when your league is owned by 100% white guys, your coached by almost 90% white guys, and your athletes are 20% white guys, I think we could make improvements.

[StpViking]

Boy I try and not get into these political discussions, but this is an on going issue.

Anyone who thinks all the White NFL head coaches got there because they are the most qualified is lying to themselves. The U.S. has been and probably will always be a tribal nation. People want to hang around people who look and act like they do. It's the safe thing to do.

My 2 cents for the Rooney Rule if it's sincere and not just lip service, than I don't mind it. But NFL history would tell you that the Rooney Rule is just lip service.

[VikingsVictorious]

This is exactly why just taking numbers and trying to base an opinion on such numbers just doesn't work. Just because 60% of nfl players are black means nothing, all this points to is when it comes to "playing' football on the highest level African Americans are better. What about college players? kids who played in little leagues and weren't good enough to make college or NFL team, what is the ratio of black to white then? Just because a player plays a position in the NFL doesn't even mean they want to be a coach, this comes down to personal choice, just like woman tend to choose not to be brick layers maybe black players choose not to be coaches. In fact the two best coaches in the league atm imo are to people who never played football on a very high level however were heavily invested in all aspects of the game from a young age, Andy Reid and Bill Belichick. So my question would be, why would you expect a higher amount of former NFL players to be hired when that doesn't correlate to success as a HC?

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

If this was like women not wanting to be bricklayers, it wouldn’t be a discussion. Just like no one is talking about the lack of black people coaching college rodeo. Why it IS a discussion, is because it is black people, who WANT to be black coaches, saying publicly they don’t feel like they are getting the opportunities. I tend to take people at their word for issues I can’t personally deal with as a white man.

I not one time said the percentage of players should correlate to head coaching. But it is relevant, for the made up scenarios above. You know why there are almost no black coaches in college rodeo? Because there are almost no black athletes in college rodeo. I just watched Eric Dickerson on First Take this morning and the percentage of black athletes in the NFL this season is actually higher at almost 80%. Does this mean all those players are destined to be good coaches? Of course not. But are you really suggesting that of all these black players, almost none of them have aspirations of coaching? That would be very surprising to me.

I have never suggested a guy has to play in the nfl to coach the nfl. I assume that experience helps but isn’t necessary. If it was, then 80% of our coaches would be black too.

Like I said I’m not a black guy. I’m a white guy. So when I hear black people feel like they are not getting fair opportunities in the league, I tend to take them for their word. It seems to me there are still issues that could be solved in the year 2022. But when your league is owned by 100% white guys, your coached by almost 90% white guys, and your athletes are 20% white guys, I think we could make improvements.

Having ratios of players race to coaches race is about as racist as it gets. There's a market for coaches among people of all colors. How about Genders. If we went by player gender to executives we would have zero female executives. Should they be excluded? Should the NBA have zero female referees and coaches? No. So for the same reason there should be no ratio of players race to coaches race.

[allday1991]

This is exactly why just taking numbers and trying to base an opinion on such numbers just doesn't work. Just because 60% of nfl players are black means nothing, all this points to is when it comes to "playing' football on the highest level African Americans are better. What about college players? kids who played in little leagues and weren't good enough to make college or NFL team, what is the ratio of black to white then? Just because a player plays a position in the NFL doesn't even mean they want to be a coach, this comes down to personal choice, just like woman tend to choose not to be brick layers maybe black players choose not to be coaches. In fact the two best coaches in the league atm imo are to people who never played football on a very high level however were heavily invested in all aspects of the game from a young age, Andy Reid and Bill Belichick. So my question would be, why would you expect a higher amount of former NFL players to be hired when that doesn't correlate to success as a HC?

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

If this was like women not wanting to be bricklayers, it wouldn’t be a discussion. Just like no one is talking about the lack of black people coaching college rodeo. Why it IS a discussion, is because it is black people, who WANT to be black coaches, saying publicly they don’t feel like they are getting the opportunities. I tend to take people at their word for issues I can’t personally deal with as a white man.

I not one time said the percentage of players should correlate to head coaching. But it is relevant, for the made up scenarios above. You know why there are almost no black coaches in college rodeo? Because there are almost no black athletes in college rodeo. I just watched Eric Dickerson on First Take this morning and the percentage of black athletes in the NFL this season is actually higher at almost 80%. Does this mean all those players are destined to be good coaches? Of course not. But are you really suggesting that of all these black players, almost none of them have aspirations of coaching? That would be very surprising to me.

I have never suggested a guy has to play in the nfl to coach the nfl. I assume that experience helps but isn’t necessary. If it was, then 80% of our coaches would be black too.

Like I said I’m not a black guy. I’m a white guy. So when I hear black people feel like they are not getting fair opportunities in the league, I tend to take them for their word. It seems to me there are still issues that could be solved in the year 2022. But when your league is owned by 100% white guys, your coached by almost 90% white guys, and your athletes are 20% white guys, I think we could make improvements.

Other than Flores who has complained? If out of 100 possible black coaching candidates if only 3 of them felt the league was being bias is that a good representation to then label and attack the NFL? It seems like your indicating that there has been a healthy line and a vast majority of black people that have complained, when?

There's no black people in rodeo because it doesn't interest them, there are tones of white people who are interested in football and no surprise are usually beat out by African Americans when competing for college positions. As mentioned both Andy and Bill loved football from an early age, realized they weren't athletically gifted and instead became students of the game in hope of keeping football in there life that way.

This is just life and every race works this way, why do convenience stores that are owned by middle easterns usually hire other middle easterns? Why do Chinese restaurants usually hire Chinese people? (just had a buddy going through as a chief, he was interested in learning authentic Chinese food, do you think anyone was interested?), humans of all race pick what there comfortable with, this is human nature not racism. To single the NFL out on this global problem that happens at every level just doesn't make any sense to me.

[vikeinmontana]

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

If this was like women not wanting to be bricklayers, it wouldn’t be a discussion. Just like no one is talking about the lack of black people coaching college rodeo. Why it IS a discussion, is because it is black people, who WANT to be black coaches, saying publicly they don’t feel like they are getting the opportunities. I tend to take people at their word for issues I can’t personally deal with as a white man.

I not one time said the percentage of players should correlate to head coaching. But it is relevant, for the made up scenarios above. You know why there are almost no black coaches in college rodeo? Because there are almost no black athletes in college rodeo. I just watched Eric Dickerson on First Take this morning and the percentage of black athletes in the NFL this season is actually higher at almost 80%. Does this mean all those players are destined to be good coaches? Of course not. But are you really suggesting that of all these black players, almost none of them have aspirations of coaching? That would be very surprising to me.

I have never suggested a guy has to play in the nfl to coach the nfl. I assume that experience helps but isn’t necessary. If it was, then 80% of our coaches would be black too.

Like I said I’m not a black guy. I’m a white guy. So when I hear black people feel like they are not getting fair opportunities in the league, I tend to take them for their word. It seems to me there are still issues that could be solved in the year 2022. But when your league is owned by 100% white guys, your coached by almost 90% white guys, and your athletes are 20% white guys, I think we could make improvements.

Other than Flores who has complained? If out of 100 possible black coaching candidates if only 3 of them felt the league was being bias is that a good representation to then label and attack the NFL? It seems like your indicating that there has been a healthy line and a vast majority of black people that have complained, when?

There's no black people in rodeo because it doesn't interest them, there are tones of white people who are interested in football and no surprise are usually beat out by African Americans when competing for college positions. As mentioned both Andy and Bill loved football from an early age, realized they weren't athletically gifted and instead became students of the game in hope of keeping football in there life that way.

This is just life and every race works this way, why do convenience stores that are owned by middle easterns usually hire other middle easterns? Why do Chinese restaurants usually hire Chinese people? (just had a buddy going through as a chief, he was interested in learning authentic Chinese food, do you think anyone was interested?), humans of all race pick what there comfortable with, this is human nature not racism. To single the NFL out on this global problem that happens at every level just doesn't make any sense to me.

I’m not singling them out. This is an NFL forum that is discussing NFL matters, particularly the Rooney Rule. So that is what I’m talking about.

I’ll just say if you think Flores is the only guy speaking out, or has spoken in the past about this issue, you’re not paying attention. It’s a huge talking point all the time, and general opinion seems to be of the belief that the NFL is much worse than MLB and NBA in regards to opportunities to minorities outside of the actual athletes.

I’m not here to change minds. It’s just my opinion and it seems to be backed up with the numbers as well as the comments from actual minorities working in the NFL. I think they can do better.

[J. Kapp 11]

Other than Flores who has complained? If out of 100 possible black coaching candidates if only 3 of them felt the league was being bias is that a good representation to then label and attack the NFL? It seems like your indicating that there has been a healthy line and a vast majority of black people that have complained, when?

There's no black people in rodeo because it doesn't interest them, there are tones of white people who are interested in football and no surprise are usually beat out by African Americans when competing for college positions. As mentioned both Andy and Bill loved football from an early age, realized they weren't athletically gifted and instead became students of the game in hope of keeping football in there life that way.

This is just life and every race works this way, why do convenience stores that are owned by middle easterns usually hire other middle easterns? Why do Chinese restaurants usually hire Chinese people? (just had a buddy going through as a chief, he was interested in learning authentic Chinese food, do you think anyone was interested?), humans of all race pick what there comfortable with, this is human nature not racism. To single the NFL out on this global problem that happens at every level just doesn't make any sense to me.

I’m not singling them out. This is an NFL forum that is discussing NFL matters, particularly the Rooney Rule. So that is what I’m talking about.

I’ll just say if you think Flores is the only guy speaking out, or has spoken in the past about this issue, you’re not paying attention. It’s a huge talking point all the time, and general opinion seems to be of the belief that the NFL is much worse than MLB and NBA in regards to opportunities to minorities outside of the actual athletes.

I’m not here to change minds. It’s just my opinion and it seems to be backed up with the numbers as well as the comments from actual minorities working in the NFL. I think they can do better.

Yeah, this may be only the beginning. We're already seeing more coaches coming forward with sham interview allegations. It's a runback of the Me Too movement. Brian Flores has emboldened others, and I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon.

[allday1991]

I’m not singling them out. This is an NFL forum that is discussing NFL matters, particularly the Rooney Rule. So that is what I’m talking about.

I’ll just say if you think Flores is the only guy speaking out, or has spoken in the past about this issue, you’re not paying attention. It’s a huge talking point all the time, and general opinion seems to be of the belief that the NFL is much worse than MLB and NBA in regards to opportunities to minorities outside of the actual athletes.

I’m not here to change minds. It’s just my opinion and it seems to be backed up with the numbers as well as the comments from actual minorities working in the NFL. I think they can do better.

Yeah, this may be only the beginning. We're already seeing more coaches coming forward with sham interview allegations. It's a runback of the Me Too movement. Brian Flores has emboldened others, and I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon.

The idea of the Rooney rule itself sets up "sham" interviews, what else is going to happen if you force a employer to interview players based on a quota. If a team is already set in who they want and they have to meet a quota what options do they have? get fined by the league or make a "sham" interview and be labeled a racist? there quite handcuffed either way. A lot of time during these discussion people like to focus on the very top, why aren't head coaches black? I'm 100% sure 40 years ago there was obstacles that would of made it much harder for a black coach to succeed, however after 2003 30% of the leagues position coaches and coordinators were African American. That is a great change and only makes sense, if you want to increase minorities at the top you have to start at the bottom. Once you get more minority coach's in back up roles learning you will eventually increase the overall % of minority coaches, however this could take 50 plus years. "Flores" is a perfect example imo of never happy, he got beat out for the Texans HC job by a more qualified African American head coach, yet his lawyers are arguing this was only because of his legal stance with the league, craziness.

[JJBreaksRecords]

I worry about the white candidates that didnt get hired, claim that the reason was because of racism, because of the Rodney rule. You just cant have racism in anything, even if its thought to be for the greater good. It could turn out to be a huge mess.

[vikeinmontana]

I worry about the white candidates that didnt get hired, claim that the reason was because of racism, because of the Rodney rule. You just cant have racism in anything, even if its thought to be for the greater good. It could turn out to be a huge mess.

I see what you're trying to do, and no doubt someone may take that approach in the future. But the numbers are what they are, so I don't see it holding much water. While more minorities are getting coaching opportunities than say, 30 years ago, even today, in 2022, they make up a tiny fraction of all NFL staffs.

I can't speculate if these black coaches are right or wrong. Perhaps the ones calling foul are simply making things up? I find that unlikely, but anything is possible. The Flores case will be fascinating to follow as there will be a thorough investigation, and should be very little gray area. It either went down like Flores said, or it didn't.

I'm of the mindset that everyone should get an opportunity regardless of race or gender. So only a couple things can be happening. One, is that currently minorities aren't getting a fair shake. That is what many of them have been saying for years. The other option, is that there just aren't as many blacks who want to get into coaching as whites. I have no idea how we could find those numbers. Finally, maybe it's just a coincidence? Maybe blacks are getting the exact opportunities as whites, but just by chance the whites seem to beating them out time after time. I have no idea.

[RayB73001]

The coach could be green, and if he could make the team win, owners would hire him. I believe greed trumps all.

[RayB73001]

The coach could be green, and if he could make the team win, owners would hire him. I believe greed trumps all.

[J. Kapp 11]

The coach could be green, and if he could make the team win, owners would hire him. I believe greed trumps all.

Winning doesn’t necessarily equal profitability. Plenty of losing teams make money. In fact, except for 2020, they all do.

The Vikings net profit for 2019 was an estimated $100 million. That’s the last year of finances available before Covid. But they’ve missed the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years. The Jets made $109 million that year. When’s the last time they were winners?

Also, the Vikings franchise is worth about $2.5 billion. The Wilfs paid $600 million for the Vikings in 2006.

We’re all saps. We buy their stuff and fill their stadiums. Nobody’s going hungry here.