march 9 is the kalil deadline

[mondry]

I like kalil, the problem is he has chronic bad knees and I don't think people are putting enough stock into that. We continually hear "maybe he's playing injured" as an excuse to make up for his poor play but in reality, half way through the season that's just the norm, that he's always going to be "playing injured" throughout a grueling NFL season.

With that said it might be smart to pay him one more year while looking for a suitable replacement or if they can use his money to find a replacement that'd be fine too.

Chronic Knee problems are not something that gets better with age either so I'd be shocked if they give him a new 3+ year contract. Maybe they want to see if the new OL coach can figure something out with him, that'd be my only guess in that case.

[Texas Vike]

Its certainly not THE answer, but it could be part of the answer. Let's just imagine they cut Kalil and Mike Wallace. They would have 23 milion dollars cap space to put toward signing FAs or paying players they might trade for. That could easily be 3-4 new starters in addition to Sullivan and Loadholt.

Obviously no promise of improvement, but one thing clear to me is that while cutting Kalil might not be the answer, Kalil is not the answer either.

Which is why the rationale in my post is the best way forward. We need to attack our dearth of solid O linemen with a multi-pronged approach. With injury issues involved with so many players, and other factors, there are just too many contingencies involved to know who our best starting 5 are at this point in time. Our strategy has to be to bring in and retain as many solid options as possible, let them compete in camp, and assemble our best unit... letting Sparano choose his top 5 in early September.

My post wasn't about supporting Kalil as our de facto starting LT, but rather, by not cutting him we at the very least do not OBLIGE ourselves to either: a) draft LT in round 1 b) go after the highest profile FA LT this offseason. Neither of those scenarios is our best bet.

[PurpleKoolaid]

I love how people talk about LT's being hard to get. Like we already found one. He has even been average in many games. I think he is playing hurt, real hurt, that doesn't heal itself. All of our pipe dreams about getting WR, or DE, LB, etc. have all got to be put on hold, til we get this dam Oline fixed, and FINALLY get a safety.

[fiestavike]

Which is why the rationale in my post is the best way forward. We need to attack our dearth of solid O linemen with a multi-pronged approach. With injury issues involved with so many players, and other factors, there are just too many contingencies involved to know who our best starting 5 are at this point in time. Our strategy has to be to bring in and retain as many solid options as possible, let them compete in camp, and assemble our best unit... letting Sparano choose his top 5 in early September.

My post wasn't about supporting Kalil as our de facto starting LT, but rather, by not cutting him we at the very least do not OBLIGE ourselves to either: a) draft LT in round 1 b) go after the highest profile FA LT this offseason. Neither of those scenarios is our best bet.

I didn't interpret you as saying that you were sold on Kalil and I do understand your point. In a similar vein, I'm not saying cutting Kalil IS the answer. I just think its possible to sign even a middling LT and get as good of production as can be expected out of Kalil for a lot less money. And of course, cutting him could theoretically make cap space (and roster space) for a big splash player such as a Joe Thomas, etc if the Vikings chose to go that direction.

What I would hate to do most of all is spread out Kalil's cap hit over 3 years and be financially committed to him going forward. He needs to be replaced this year or next anyway.

I think the ideal approach would be to bring in players that these coaches are familiar with that would provide solid if unspectacular play. Add to that bringing in and coaching up lots of bodies, hoping you hit on one or two guys who can be good players.

As it stands there isn't a single starter on this offensive line that can be counted on for next year. Kalil is broken, Fusco stunk, Sullivan is injured, Loadholt is injured, Clemmings is raw. The two guys I view similarly to the way you are viewing Kalil is Berger and Harris, both of whom would be ideal as backups. In a pinch, we know they can play well enough not to derail the offense. the same can't be said about any of the other guys listed above.

[chicagopurple]

until we fix the Ol we will never be able to confidently assess our QB or even WRs. As pointed out earlier, this years draft is crappy for OL and QBs. The answer is likely going to come from free agents, and taking a chance on some good scouting reports from smaller schools. It is time for the GM and his scouts to show their skills. They have spent way too long trying to shift and patch the current components of our OL. Kalil is injured goods and never really was dependable. The whole rest of the line has similar major question marks. APs shelf life is ticking away. Teddy NEEDS to be fully assessed this next year and the requires an OL in place. Its an urgent issue and wistful hoping of a turnaround from Kalil is NOT a plan.

[dead_poet]

I didn't interpret you as saying that you were sold on Kalil and I do understand your point. In a similar vein, I'm not saying cutting Kalil IS the answer. I just think its possible to sign even a middling LT and get as good of production as can be expected out of Kalil for a lot less money.

Kalil IS a middling LT. We can get middling LT production out of him without paying him $11 million.

And of course, cutting him could theoretically make cap space (and roster space) for a big splash player such as a Joe Thomas, etc if the Vikings chose to go that direction.

Thomas is under contract until 2019. The one thing Rick will not do is trade away draft picks. I'd love Thomas, but unless he can package a trade with Cleveland that includes AD or something that will not happen. Not to mention player swaps as part of NFL trades are incredibly rare.

What I would hate to do most of all is spread out Kalil's cap hit over 3 years and be financially committed to him going forward. He needs to be replaced this year or next anyway.

You're assuming the Vikings can't structure a contract that essentially makes Kalil's deal a "pay-as-you-go" thing. They could easily make it a team-friendly deal that allows them to cut Kalil as early as 2017 with little to no cap ramifications. Kalil has little leverage so if they do extend him I expect this kind of contract (that presumably has some incentives built in).

As it stands there isn't a single starter on this offensive line that can be counted on for next year. Kalil is broken, Fusco stunk, Sullivan is injured, Loadholt is injured, Clemmings is raw. The two guys I view similarly to the way you are viewing Kalil is Berger and Harris, both of whom would be ideal as backups. In a pinch, we know they can play well enough not to derail the offense. the same can't be said about any of the other guys listed above.

While the injuries aren't minor, it's very possible that Sullivan AND Loadholt are ready to play by training camp. There's so much unknown to us regarding these injuries. While I can see the case for blowing the whole thing up, the truth of the matter is that's hardly (ever?) done in one offseason. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there's very little turnover with maybe one new face. Remember, we've never really seen what most of this line can actually do with Kalil not being as awful as before with slightly healthier knees. Not only is signing a bunch of guys to replace many of the guys we have such a huge question mark (and potentially incredibly costly), there's absolutely no guarantee they wouldn't be measurably worse. We can get by 2016 with Kalil at LT if he played like he did early/midway through this season. What we can't do is keep Fusco at LG and Clemmings at RT. The fact that we have options there already (if they're healthy) makes me think the line will be better by default. If Rick signs the right free agent and/or drafts the right one or two guys it can be measurably better right away rather than potentially worse right off the bat. This is a good year to need an interior offensive linemen in the draft.

[fiestavike]

Kalil IS a middling LT. We can get middling LT production out of him without paying him $11 million.

I see you address this later, but the challenge here is getting him to accept less money without extending the financial commitment into 2017. If you can do that, sure, I'm in favor of it. Also, I would say Kalil was a middling LT this year, but thats likely his ceiling going forward. There is a lot of risk in planning on him as your starting LT.

Thomas is under contract until 2019. The one thing Rick will not do is trade away draft picks. I'd love Thomas, but unless he can package a trade with Cleveland that includes AD or something that will not happen. Not to mention player swaps as part of NFL trades are incredibly rare.

I agree that particular scenario is unlikely, I'm just using it as an illustration.

You're assuming the Vikings can't structure a contract that essentially makes Kalil's deal a "pay-as-you-go" thing. They could easily make it a team-friendly deal that allows them to cut Kalil as early as 2017 with little to no cap ramifications. Kalil has little leverage so if they do extend him I expect this kind of contract (that presumably has some incentives built in).

Like I said, if they can do that, great. I'm not sure how much leverage either camp has over the other if the Vikings feel like they can't move on without a middling injury plagued left tackle next year.

While the injuries aren't minor, it's very possible that Sullivan AND Loadholt are ready to play by training camp. There's so much unknown to us regarding these injuries. While I can see the case for blowing the whole thing up, the truth of the matter is that's hardly (ever?) done in one offseason. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there's very little turnover with maybe one new face. Remember, we've never really seen what most of this line can actually do with Kalil not being as awful as before with slightly healthier knees. Not only is signing a bunch of guys to replace many of the guys we have such a huge question mark (and potentially incredibly costly), there's absolutely no guarantee they wouldn't be measurably worse. We can get by 2016 with Kalil at LT if he played like he did early/midway through this season. What we can't do is keep Fusco at LG and Clemmings at RT. The fact that we have options there already (if they're healthy) makes me think the line will be better by default. If Rick signs the right free agent and/or drafts the right one or two guys it can be measurably better right away rather than potentially worse right off the bat. This is a good year to need an interior offensive linemen in the draft.

I'm not sure its blowing it up to move on from a LT who's upside is likely around the 20th best LT in the league. Sullivan and Loadholt are both getting up there and coming off of major injuries. The two best players likely to return are backup quality guys. For all intents and purposes this line is already blown up.

[VikingLord]

I like kalil, the problem is he has chronic bad knees and I don't think people are putting enough stock into that. We continually hear "maybe he's playing injured" as an excuse to make up for his poor play but in reality, half way through the season that's just the norm, that he's always going to be "playing injured" throughout a grueling NFL season.

With that said it might be smart to pay him one more year while looking for a suitable replacement or if they can use his money to find a replacement that'd be fine too.

Chronic Knee problems are not something that gets better with age either so I'd be shocked if they give him a new 3+ year contract. Maybe they want to see if the new OL coach can figure something out with him, that'd be my only guess in that case.

Do you have a link to something that supports this? I know Kalil had an injury issue in his second year, but my understanding is that the issue was resolved and is not chronic. The resolution of it might have slowed him down a bit, but it was resolved. If what you say is accurate and it in fact can never be resolved and the poor guy will be playing in pain for the rest of his career, then the Vikings sure as heck better be emphasizing finding a LT who can replace him.

[fiestavike]

Just to put it another way. If we count on Kalil, Sullivan and Loadholt to be starting next year, I think the Vikings will once again have a bottom of the League O-Line. If they can keep those guys this offseason, they need to treat them as potential contributors, not starters.

[dead_poet]

I see you address this later, but the challenge here is getting him to accept less money without extending the financial commitment into 2017.

I don't see it that much of a challenge at all. Like I said, he has very little leverage. The Vikings could really just cut him outright and I'm not sure what his value would be on the open market. I'm not sure he (or his agent) would get much more than what the Vikings would offer in a per-year basis given his knees and recent production.

Also, I would say Kalil was a middling LT this year, but thats likely his ceiling going forward. There is a lot of risk in planning on him as your starting LT.

There's no more risk than planning on starting a rookie at LT on day 1. But I agree that his ceiling is probably close to what we saw this season. Just remember he was actually not awful (dare I say it decent?) the first 12 weeks or so. He sustained that foot/toe injury late in the year and continued to play. That probably affected him some and I know he left a bad taste in everyone's memory (as did Walsh) but that shouldn't take away from the good performances he had earlier in the year.

I'm not sure how much leverage either camp has over the other if the Vikings feel like they can't move on without a middling injury plagued left tackle next year.

I think they obviously could move on, which is why I think they have more leverage. But to me it makes sense for both sides to work something out in the short-term while the Vikings look to replace Kalil in a year or two when they have a viable replacement on the roster (preferably one with a year in their system and in their strength program if it is a rookie). I want to move on when there's a clear better option (or lateral) versus hoping or being forced to.

I'm not sure its blowing it up to move on from a LT who's upside is likely around the 20th best LT in the league. Sullivan and Loadholt are both getting up there and coming off of major injuries. The two best players likely to return are backup quality guys. For all intents and purposes this line is already blown up.

I interpreted your post as wanting to potentially replace the majority of our offensive line. That constitutes "blowing it up" for me because you almost never (ever?) see that much roster turnover on a starting NFL offensive line in one offseason. Sullivan and Loadholt are "getting up there" but it's not like they're 37 or circling the wagon. Phil is 29 and Sully is 30. Joe Thomas is 31. Heck, Birk didn't retire until he was like 36-37. I'd also think that both Berger and Harris, if the played like they did last season, are probably starting-caliber. YMMV

[dead_poet]

Just to put it another way. If we count on Kalil, Sullivan and Loadholt to be starting next year, I think the Vikings will once again have a bottom of the League O-Line. If they can keep those guys this offseason, they need to treat them as potential contributors, not starters.

Are you assuming Sullivan and Loadholt's injuries are going to hamper them in 2016? That's the only way I can see how you come to this conclusion. Sullivan has been one of the top centers in the game for crying out loud! Definitely top-5. Loadholt has also been steadily improving and was coming into this year having one of the best offseasons/camps out of any Vikings player (according to the beat guys), and a major asset in the run game (a top-5 run-blocking RT) and growing as a pass-protector.

I think how they should be viewed should come from how the medical staff deems their recovery. There's no reason that if they both make full recoveries that they can't be productive starters again. If the team truly believes them broken beyond repair they should release them outright. I don't expect that to happen.

[Mothman]

I don't see it that much of a challenge at all. Like I said, he has very little leverage. The Vikings could really just cut him outright and I'm not sure what his value would be on the open market. I'm not sure he (or his agent) would get much more than what the Vikings would offer in a per-year basis given his knees and recent production.

They might be willing to find out. I think he has quite a bit of leverage. The Vikes have virtually no plan of succession at the position right now and Kalil is a young, 4 year starter at LT, a valued position. If he hit the market, I have little doubt he could find a team willing to give him a multi-year deal. I seriously doubt the Vikes could get him to accept less money in 2016 without extending the financial commitment to 2017 or further. Kalil has little incentive to accept a deal like that.

I interpreted your post as wanting to potentially replace the majority of our offensive line. That constitutes "blowing it up" for me because you almost never (ever?) see that much roster turnover on a starting NFL offensive line in one offseason. Sullivan and Loadholt are "getting up there" but it's not like they're 37 or circling the wagon.

... or the drain.

[dead_poet]

Do you have a link to something that supports this? I know Kalil had an injury issue in his second year, but my understanding is that the issue was resolved and is not chronic. The resolution of it might have slowed him down a bit, but it was resolved. If what you say is accurate and it in fact can never be resolved and the poor guy will be playing in pain for the rest of his career, then the Vikings sure as heck better be emphasizing finding a LT who can replace him.

As I understand it:

2015 offseason: Arthoscopic surgery (both knees) + injections designed to help patients deal with joint pain. Specifically, had both knees scoped (January 2015) then received a Regenexx procedure, which removes blood, processes it and re-injects into knee (March 2015). Plus platelet-rich plasma therapy to aid healing.

May 2014: Had "minor knee surgery" prior to OTAs. This one was kept pretty hush-hush for whatever reason. Kalil only said he got something "cleaned up." In at least one interview I believe Kalil said he wished he'd had surgery after 2013 season instead of trying to rehab (before he actually went through with it). It sounds like he was playing really injured in 2013 and into 2014.

Prior to 2012 season: Kalil had at least one knee injury in college and underwent surgery prior to joining the Vikings

Looks like at least two separate surgeries for both knees and another for at least one, increasing in severity/invasiveness. I think they can be considered "chronic" at this point.

[dead_poet]

They might be willing to find out. I think he has quite a bit of leverage. The Vikes have virtually no plan of succession at the position right now and Kalil is a young, 4 year starter at LT, a valued position. If he hit the market, I have little doubt he could find a team willing to give him a multi-year deal. I seriously doubt the Vikes could get him to accept less money in 2016 without extending the financial commitment to 2017 or further. Kalil has little incentive to accept a deal like that.

That's what makes this so tricky. I think teams would be incredibly weary of signing a guy that has been one of the worst starting LTs for much of his career who has at LEAST 4-5 known knee surgeries on his resume (some of them at this point having a "last resort" feeling). No team is going to make a heavy long-term financial commitment to a guy like that. I don't see why using Fusco's deal wouldn't work an example where 2016 he gets most of the guaranteed cash up front and spreading the cap hit out beyond 2017 so making it palatable to cut him in 2017 if they feel like it with minor repercussions.

[fiestavike]

Are you assuming Sullivan and Loadholt's injuries are going to hamper them in 2016? That's the only way I can see how you come to this conclusion. Sullivan has been one of the top centers in the game for crying out loud! Definitely top-5. Loadholt has also been steadily improving and was coming into this year having one of the best offseasons/camps out of any Vikings player (according to the beat guys), and a major asset in the run game (a top-5 run-blocking RT) and growing as a pass-protector.

I think how they should be viewed should come from how the medical staff deems their recovery. There's no reason that if they both make full recoveries that they can't be productive starters again. If the team truly believes them broken beyond repair they should release them outright. I don't expect that to happen.

I'm assuming there is a good chance injuries could hamper them. I don't feel comfortable planning on them as starters. back surgery and achilles heel injury for a 350 pound guy who was already a big heavy footed concern me. I would like this team to be in the position that if Sully and Loadholt can return, its a bonus.