Vikings Message Board.Com

King James wrote:I remember in 2012 Sage Rosenfels outperformed every QB on our roster during the offseason/preseason. And the coaches cut him anyway.

You have to look deeper. A lot of the evaluation process comes from practice and other activities that fans aren't privy to. Did Sage "outperform" every QB on the roster against what level of competition? If I recall correctly, he mostly came in during the latter part of preseason games against third-stringers and guys about to be cut. Plus, Sage was never going to be any type of long-term answer. Starting him would just be delaying any progress of Ponder, who the staff needed to evaluate properly from more than just six games. If memory serves, Rosenfels never played snap for anyone else (may not have even been invited anywhere). Clearly he was on his last legs and had little to no future. Starting him in 2012 wouldn't have made a whole lot of sense.

Cassel outperformed Ponder last year before the season started and the coaches still were sold on Ponder.

Outperformed how? I honestly don't remember that being the case. If you're talking about the preseason, there wasn't much to outperform as Ponder barely played, which, if I remember correctly, rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Cassel was 22/40 (55%) with 1 TD and 1 INT. Ponder was 23/36 (62.2%) with 2 TDs and 2 INTs.

But it didn't matter. The coaching staff wanted to give Ponder a good look and enter the season by being "the guy." Cassel was signed to be the backup and understood his role. Honestly, I find it surprising people think Cassel is so much better than Ponder. I feel many suffer from ABP Syndrome (Anyone But Ponder). They are both bottom-tier NFL starters whose future as the starting QB of the Vikings is hopefully numbered. Put it this way, if either is starting for us in 2015, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

I just want to know what was the thought process of that whole situation. It ended up hurting them and Ponder in the long run, because he clearly isn't ready, atleast not ready to be a starter.

As I mentioned, the whole thought process was to give Ponder the keys to see what he could do by being, unequivocally, The Guy. Giving him all the starter reps in practice and the confidence of the coaching staff. Obviously it didn't work out the way anyone wanted. I highly doubt Cassel's practice performance was something like a Russel Wilson vs. Matt Flynn.

LOL! Sorry, dead-poet, I was writing my post while you were posting yours and you already made most of the points I was making... oh, well.

headless_norseman wrote:I wish the mods would lose the backround dice once and for all!

I've never encountered this problem, I think it may be your browser. I would try a different one and see if you can replicate the issue. If it persists, open a thread in the Site Announcements, Suggestions, or Problems section and we'll see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing.

it's pretty well documented that Childress didn't like Rosenfels and did what he had to do to get him off the team which was laughably try to turn joe webb into the #3 QB and force spielman to trade sage.

Well I heard Ponder didn't perform so well at training camp so I'm basing it off that. As for the stats, I think you can also argue that Cassel performed with the 2nd stringers. Things may have been different if he got snaps with the starts. I just think out of what I saw, Cassel looked more ready. I'm not much of a Cassel guy myself but I think he did better job than Ponder and Webb.

It seemed to me like they stuck with Ponder mainly because he's a 1st round pick and the possibility of him losing his starting job that soon would indicate that the Vikings picked the wrong person at #12. They probably didn't want to give anyone that impression and in the process keeping him on the field did more harm than good.

I could be wrong but that's what I think happened. As bad as Ponder has been struggling, both obvious by fans around the league and NFL analysts and reporters, the coaches never acknowledge his performance. The answer was always, "We will have to look at the tape and see what happened." No one was being held accountable, something that Zimmer seems to be teaching the team this year.

King James wrote:It seemed to me like they stuck with Ponder mainly because he's a 1st round pick and the possibility of him losing his starting job that soon would indicate that the Vikings picked the wrong person at #12. They probably didn't want to give anyone that impression and in the process keeping him on the field did more harm than good.

Again, they probably wanted more than six games to evaluate their #12 pick. Rarely do teams move on from a potential franchise QB (especially one that highly selected) after such a small sample size. Players can improve after only six games into their rookie season, even if it appears Ponder's progression wasn't sufficient enough. Just like keeping Fusco on the field during his polarizing first year seemed to yield dividends. Same with John Sullivan. Same with Phil Loadholt and Cedric Griffen to an extent (before his injury). These players benefited from playing/starting after rough early periods. I don't understand why it was beyond the realm of possibility to expect/hope Ponder could do the same after six starts. Or even after a full season.

I could be wrong but that's what I think happened. As bad as Ponder has been struggling, both obvious by fans around the league and NFL analysts and reporters, the coaches never acknowledge his performance. The answer was always, "We will have to look at the tape and see what happened." No one was being held accountable, something that Zimmer seems to be teaching the team this year.

Not being held accountable? Ponder was essentially benched last season. I don't know how guys weren't being held accountable last season. That seems to be a narrative with very little substance.

dead_poet wrote:Not being held accountable? Ponder was essentially benched last season. I don't know how guys weren't being held accountable last season. That seems to be a narrative with very little substance.

Apparently, public floggings were in order.

If I recall Ponder was benched during injury the first time, not his performance. Then he got a chance to start again after he got healthy and started until he got injured "again." I don't think he was being held accountable, at least not for the right reason.


As for the comparison of Loadholt, Sully, and Cedric Griffin, the QB position is a whole different ball game. The team can still win if those guys are struggling but the QB????? That's one position that doesn't have that same time frame for people to wait on him to get better. It's more pressure on them. They are usually the leaders of the team. When the QB plays great, the team plays great around him.

I think of Brett when he came in 2009 and how well they played vs how they played in 2010 with practically the same players. QB play really affects the entire team.

Considering Ponder was drafted in the 1st round and those guys were not, I would think the expectation for him was higher, I think expectations for QBs in general are higher than any other position.

Ponder is like a social disease..

started out fun .. then got uncomfortable

tried to fix it with experts... in the end you got stuck with something you don't want !!!

King James wrote:As for the comparison of Loadholt, Sully, and Cedric Griffin, the QB position is a whole different ball game.

It's a whole different ballgame for fans, not coaches.

The team can still win if those guys are struggling but the QB????? That's one position that doesn't have that same time frame for people to wait on him to get better.

Smart coaches give a guy a freaking chance. I don't understand why, in the minds of some fans, QBs aren't allowed the same amount of time to grow and improve as other positions. It doesn't make any sense to me.

It's more pressure on them. They are usually the leaders of the team. When the QB plays great, the team plays great around him.

Yes, but sometimes that QB needs time to become great. There are countless examples of quarterbacks that take more than a season to learn the game, the speed, get acclimated and confident. There are also countless examples of QBs that have flamed out after the same period. The point is, we shouldn't be so dismissive of a quarterback that doesn't, in his rookie season, lead the team to the playoffs and have 3,5000 passing yards with 30 TDs.

Considering Ponder was drafted in the 1st round and those guys were not, I would think the expectation for him was higher, I think expectations for QBs in general are higher than any other position.

That's true. Sometimes I think expectations for quarterbacks are so high they become unrealistic, especially initially. But whose fault is that, the QBs or us fans?

dead_poet wrote:Smart coaches give a guy a freaking chance. I don't understand why, in the minds of some fans, QBs aren't allowed the same amount of time to grow and improve as other positions. It doesn't make any sense to me.

It's strange, especially because there is no position in football that's more difficult to learn and master.

When it comes to QBs, the attitude of many, many fans is more or less:

The gift that keeps on giving.

not a Ponder fan by any means. But he is a Viking and any man who makes the roster should be given a 2nd and 3rd look. We just have no idea how much poor coaching affected Ponder so if he wins the starting job I will support him. I also never understood the Rosenfelds move at all. Everytime he got on the field in preseason games all he did was move the team down the field and score, almost every time he got the ball. And they chose Tjack over him? Never understood that

Yeah I thought the same thing, if Ponder by some miracle wins the starting job again, I won't question their decision. This time he has a coach who can teach him, who knows if Norv Turner can flip the switch in Ponder's head or not but it's worth a shot while he's still here. If anything Ponder deserves to be in a situation like this where he can get taught the right way, rather just getting thrown to the wolves like he did.

Think of Aaron Rodgers. Yes he sat behind Brett Favre but Favre isn't a teacher. McCarthy sent Rodgers and all his QBs to QB school for training. Just because you go to the pros doesn't mean you don't hone your skills. Ponder never had any of that.

Hopefully now our new coaches will actually teach him this time how to go through progressions and go through his reads. It can't be taught, some QBs have natural talent in going through their progressions and some have to be taught. Ponder may be one of those guys. Because what I seen these past 3 years, he needs a lot of training. Norv is the right person for him.