What if this had happened? Would you stiil want Ponder out?

[Orion]

if the vikings lost i think frazier gets fired in the bye week and we get a head coach that finally benches ponder

[im4mnvikes]

No doubt that's all true, but as far as glow I would think it would still be there, even if Cassel had walked of the field, cus the defense gave up the 3rd game back to back loses in the closing minutes of a game, that Cassel looked much better out there than Ponder and that can't be denied regardless of what the defense done.

For the 1st time in awhile i really enjoyed watching our offense and feeling that they could move the ball. I held my breath everytime Ponder dropped back to pass because his passes always looked weak.

[PurpleHalo]

Yes I would, because if Ponder played yesterday, they wouldn't have put up 34 points and would have easily lost. The eye test told me Cassel can handle and NFL offense, same thing tells me Ponder cannot. The out route to Jennings for the 70 yard TD would have been floated with no YAC chance. A bigger chance that the ball would have been intercepted, or Jennings would have had to dive out of bounds to catch it.

[psjordan]

He said what if the defense would have coughed up the lead in the last minute AGAIN like they did against the Bears and Browns the previousl two weeks? Then the Vikings lose the game in OT. Would the glow around Matt Cassell be as bright had they lost?

I really don't get how a reasonable person could take this view about ANYTHING, much less sports. Assuming the question is posed at those who feel Cassel outperformed Ponder, why the heck would they NOT want the better QB on the field no matter what the outcome? I mean, I seriously don't get the logic in the question?

If we could trade for Joey Instafix for our defense, wouldn't we? Or would we not, because "Ponder is going to blow the game anyways"?

Some of this stuff is just downright silly.

[majorm]

I would be okay with that. Frazier is basically saying Cassel is the better QB, but I better not say it in case he sucks too and we have to revert to back to Ponder through some injury to Matt, and Ponder suddenly "gets it" (long shot I know), so I don't look like a fool. At this point of the season, whatever it takes for Cassel to get a shot at leading this team, I am okay with.

Frazier saying, "Christian is still our quarterback" to me just goes along with all the ridiculous coddling of this guy we've seen since they first put him in there. They have bent over backwards to not upset his apparently very fragile psyche. I understand not wanting to crush his confidence but don't act like you're not seeing what EVERYone else is seeing.

He should have only said something like, "Matt played very well. We'll look at film and make the decision on who we thinks gives us the better chance to win going forward."

I mean even Ponder had to see it. He has to know his job is in jeopardy no matter what Frazier said right after the game.

I know one thing. If Frazier does the unthinkable and puts Ponder back out there with a healthy Cassell, he will lose that lockeroom. He has to realize that....doesn't he?

[Funkytown]

For the 1st time in awhile i really enjoyed watching our offense and feeling that they could move the ball. I held my breath everytime Ponder dropped back to pass because his passes always looked weak.

I completely agree. You know (no, really, you know) I've had Ponder's back for so long, but the dude just plain gives me anxiety. Whenever he is out there I'm nervous as can be waiting for something bad to happen. With Cassel it was actually exciting. I felt we could do something! And he managed to get our top WR involved on top of it all? Shut. Up. LOL. He was off there a bit at the beginning, but he eventually settled down and looked good. Heck, even when he was looking iffy he was still more relaxed and confident than Ponder. I'm not sure WHAT I'm going to think if Ponder starts the next game. Man...

[mondry]

I completely agree. You know (no, really, you know) I've had Ponder's back for so long, but the dude just plain gives me anxiety. Whenever he is out there I'm nervous as can be waiting for something bad to happen. With Cassel it was actually exciting. I felt we could do something! And he managed to get our top WR involved on top of it all? Shut. Up. LOL. He was off there a bit at the beginning, but he eventually settled down and looked good. Heck, even when he was looking iffy he was still more relaxed and confident than Ponder. I'm not sure WHAT I'm going to think if Ponder starts the next game. Man...

Basically his bad throws weren't anything worse than what we've seen from Ponder on a routine basis. But his good throws however, were so much superior to what we've seen from Ponder that we're like "wait wtf was that? A strike to Jennings in the endzone? 20 yards in the air, on the money? is that legal?!"

[J. Kapp 11]

I've said this in another thread and I'll say it again ...

The fact that the Vikings' defense held on Sunday was not the main reason the Vikes won the game. The biggest reason they won the game was that they had a 17-point lead after three quarters.

So the question, to me, is easy to answer. One QB put up 34 points in three quarters of work. That's the guy I want in there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

[Mothman]

I've said this in another thread and I'll say it again ...

The fact that the Vikings' defense held on Sunday was not the main reason the Vikes won the game. The biggest reason they won the game was that they had a 17-point lead after three quarters.

So the question, to me, is easy to answer. One QB put up 34 points in three quarters of work. That's the guy I want in there.

I'll say the obvious even if it will just piss people off: one QB didn't put up 34 points. The Vikings offense did. It was exactly 7 points more than they put up a week earlier against a defense that's allowing an average of 10 points per game less than the Steelers, is ranked third in the NFL in yardage allowed and 8th in points allowed. Pittsburgh is ranked 25th in total points allowed.

That's not a knock on Cassel, just an effort to maintain perspective.

[J. Kapp 11]

I'll say the obvious even if it will just piss people off: one QB didn't put up 34 points. The Vikings offense did. It was exactly 7 points more than they put up a week earlier against a defense that's allowing an average of 10 points per game less than the Steelers, is ranked third in the NFL in yardage allowed and 8th in points allowed. Pittsburgh is ranked 25th in total points allowed.

That's not a knock on Cassel, just an effort to maintain perspective.

It's my opinion, Jim. Period. That IS my perspective.

The quarterback gets the credit, and the quarterback gets the blame. It's not complicated.

As others have said, it's the eye test. It's been VERY apparent to me at the two Vikings games I've attended with Ponder at QB. He doesn't look like be expects to succeed. Sorry that offends you, but that's my take.

In many ways, I'll never understand your position on this. When Favre was playing lights out in '09, you were his harshest critic. Now when we have a QB who's overmatched, you want everybody to maintain perspective. I respect the heck out of you, but this baffles me. I want production, and I don't care if it's Attila the Hun who produces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

[NextQuestion]

I know Cassel had some scary moments but he made some really nice NFL type throws we have not seen from Ponder...maybe ever. I'm sick of Ponder rolling out to his left and throwing awkwardly across his body to John Carlson to an incomplete pass or pick.

Ponder's turnover have been absolutely cringe worthy too. Sometimes DBs make nice plays on the ball but he stares his guys down and gets flustered too easily. No lie, all of the veteran retreads we have had are better than Ponder. You think Moss in 1998-2004 era would have stood for noodle armed Ponder?

[Mothman]

It's my opinion, Jim. Period. That IS my perspective.

The quarterback gets the credit, and the quarterback gets the blame. It's not complicated.

It's not complicated. I just don't believe in that particular maxim. It's never made much sense to me since it's offenses that score points, not just QBs.

As others have said, it's the eye test. It's been VERY apparent to me at the two Vikings games I've attended with Ponder at QB. He doesn't look like be expects to succeed. Sorry that offends you, but that's my take.

It doesn't offend me at all. I have no personal investment in Ponder and I've come away from the games I've seen him play in person with a similar view.

In many ways, I'll never understand your position on this. When Favre was playing lights out in '09, you were his harshest critic. Now when we have a QB who's overmatched, you want everybody to maintain perspective.

The situations are completely different but I wanted to maintain perspective then too. My criticism of Favre was primarily criticism of the decision to sign him (and commit two years to him ) because I thought it was a huge mistake that would ultimately harm the team while they also fell short of their Super Bowl goal, which was the only reason to sign him in the first place. I was also critical of the absolutely ridiculous level of credit his hero-worshipping followers wanted to give him for everything. I disliked Favre because I thought he was bad for the Vikes in the long term but I acknowledged his production and short term benefit to the team throughout that season. I hated the circus and the fawning that came with it.

I respect the heck out of you, but this baffles me. I want production, and I don't care if it's Attila the Hun who produces.

I care a little more than that (thank goodness this team has never asked us to cheer for Michael Vick) but basically, I just want the QB choice to make sense for the team. When it comes to this current situation, it doesn't matter to me who starts because I think the Ponder experiment is over, whether Spielman and Frazier are ready to acknowledge it or not. He's not the QB of the future. However, apparently I wasn't as impressed with Cassel as you and a lot of other Vikes fans were. I thought the main thing that separated his performance from Ponder's was the way he recognized open receivers on crossing routes and threw confidently into the middle of the field. That DID make a difference. He hit Simpson on a few routes and threw a sharp TD to Jennings that I'm not sure Ponder would have thrown. However, overall, I saw a lot of the same short, simple stuff Ponder completes, quite a few of the same off target, inaccurate passes Ponder gets raked over the coals for throwing and several opportunities for turnovers that, fortunately, weren't turnovers. Cassel was definitely more self-assured and I like that.

I want to see production too. The point I was making in my previous post is that the 7 additional points of production that separate Cassel's first start from Ponder's last could just as easily be accounted for by the difference in quality between the two opposing defenses as by the difference in quality between the two QBs. I agree that Cassel looked better but to me, it wasn't the difference between night and day. It was more like the difference between night and later that night.

I'm all for giving him the next start and seeing where it leads. I hope that's what Frazier does. I'm a Vikings fan, not a Ponder fan.

[J. Kapp 11]

It's not complicated. I just don't believe in that particular maxim. It's never made much sense to me since it's offenses that score points, not just QBs.
It doesn't offend me at all. I have no personal investment in Ponder and I've come away from the games I've seen him play in person with a similar view.
The situations are completely different but I wanted to maintain perspective then too. My criticism of Favre was primarily criticism of the decision to sign him (and commit two years to him ) because I thought it was a huge mistake that would ultimately harm the team while they also fell short of their Super Bowl goal, which was the only reason to sign him in the first place. I was also critical of the absolutely ridiculous level of credit his hero-worshipping followers wanted to give him for everything. I disliked Favre because I thought he was bad for the Vikes in the long term but I acknowledged his production and short term benefit to the team throughout that season. I hated the circus and the fawning that came with it.
I care a little more than that (thank goodness this team has never asked us to cheer for Michael Vick) but basically, I just want the QB choice to make sense for the team. When it comes to this current situation, it doesn't matter to me who starts because I think the Ponder experiment is over, whether Spielman and Frazier are ready to acknowledge it or not. He's not the QB of the future. However, apparently I wasn't as impressed with Cassel as you and a lot of other Vikes fans were. I thought the main thing that separated his performance from Ponder's was the way he recognized open receivers on crossing routes and threw confidently into the middle of the field. That DID make a difference. He hit Simpson on a few routes and threw a sharp TD to Jennings that I'm not sure Ponder would have thrown. However, overall, I saw a lot of the same short, simple stuff Ponder completes, quite a few of the same off target, inaccurate passes Ponder gets raked over the coals for throwing and several opportunities for turnovers that, fortunately, weren't turnovers. Cassel was definitely more self-assured and I like that.

I want to see production too. The point I was making in my previous post is that the 7 additional points of production that separate Cassel's first start from Ponder's last could just as easily be accounted for by the difference in quality between the two opposing defenses as by the difference in quality between the two QBs. I agree that Cassel looked better but to me, it wasn't the difference between night and day. It was more like the difference between night and later that night.

I'm all for giving him the next start and seeing where it leads. I hope that's what Frazier does. I'm a Vikings fan, not a Ponder fan.

Appreciate your perspective, Jim.

If I'm being fair, I know that was your take on Favre. You disliked the signing for the long-term health of the Vikings (of course, if YOU are being fair, you have a pretty strong dislike for Favre the man ). That's legitimate. I guess there's a ton of "little boy" in me that simply wants a championship, no matter who is under center. Over my life, I've learned to become a patient man, but it's getting hard with this organization. I'll never forsake them, but I'm tired of my team never being mentioned seriously in the championship conversation.

For my point of view on Cassel, it's not so much that he helped the Vikings put up "only" 7 more points than Ponder. It's that his play got better as the game went along. Even though he had led the Vikings to the lead, at one point he was only 5-for-14 passing, although I wasn't surprised at the slow statistical start. But he ended up hitting his last 11 throws, including 10-for-10 in the second half.

The third quarter was the telling quarter. Pittsburgh scored to pull within 20-17, and the Vikings immediately responded with 14 straight to give them the 17-point lead they obviously needed. Cassel had a large part of that. No 70-yard RAC. No 60-yard Adrian TD. Two excellent drives with throw after throw that Ponder wouldn't have been likely to make.

Can Cassel do that consistently? Don't know. His past is checkered. I can say this ... with good coaching in New England, he thrived. With good offensive coaching in KC, he thrived (there should be little doubt about Todd Haley's abilities as an offensive coach). But he also had some pretty horrible coaching in KC. Not making excuses. But he didn't even start in college, so his experience is limited -- meaning his early-career coaching was critical.

Still, we don't know what Cassel will do for the future. All I can say is that I liked what I saw Sunday more than almost any performance Christian Ponder put up in 2+ years. YMMV.

[Mothman]

If I'm being fair, I know that was your take on Favre. You disliked the signing for the long-term health of the Vikings (of course, if YOU are being fair, you have a pretty strong dislike for Favre the man ).

I wouldn't put it quite that way. I don't know the man so I can't say I dislike him but I definitely think it's fair to say I have a strong dislike for Favre, the Packer and particularly for Favre, the Myth. It's the latter that always drove me crazy (and long before he became a Viking). It's certainly fair to say I hated the idea of Favre being a Viking.

That's legitimate. I guess there's a ton of "little boy" in me that simply wants a championship, no matter who is under center. Over my life, I've learned to become a patient man, but it's getting hard with this organization. I'll never forsake them, but I'm tired of my team never being mentioned seriously in the championship conversation.

I hear you and that's why I invested a great deal of hope in Ponder and was as patient with his performances and shortcomings as I could bring myself to be. I don't buy into the QB-centric view of the NFL so often presented today but I do recognize the significance of the position and it's importance to winning a championship and staying in that Super Bowl race for an extended period of time. The Vikes desperately need a QB who can help them do that and they haven't had one since Tarkenton. We both know that was a LONG time ago and the wait is getting old.

I appreciate your thoughts on Cassel. You were clearly quite a bit more impressed with his performance than I was but he made some encouraging throws and seemed to settle in and get more comfortable as the game went on, which could be a good sign. Hopefully, he'll get the start against Carolina and look terrific.

[J. Kapp 11]

I hear you and that's why I invested a great deal of hope in Ponder and was as patient with his performances and shortcomings as I could bring myself to be.

I was, too, Jim. Look at my posts from last season. Early last year, I supported him in a big way. Middle of the year, I was mad as hell at him, but I continued to support him. End of the year, he had won me back. I was honest about that all along.

I thought he'd come back this year and just reach another level. I'm pissed that he didn't. To be honest, going up to Minneapolis and watching the Browns game was the last straw. It's a fan thing. I spent a lot of money. We anticipate this every year. It's something we mark on the calendar, our one game per year to see our Vikings live. I was expecting a good performance against a team that appeared to have given up on its season, and they laid an egg. Ponder, in particular, laid an egg. The biggest egg. Like I said, we spent some money on this. I was close enough to see his face. He just LOOKED terrible, like he had no clue. I'm done with him.

I don't buy into the QB-centric view of the NFL so often presented today but I do recognize the significance of the position and it's importance to winning a championship and staying in that Super Bowl race for an extended period of time. The Vikes desperately need a QB who can help them do that and they haven't had one since Tarkenton. We both know that was a LONG time ago and the wait is getting old.

You got that right.

I appreciate your thoughts on Cassel. You were clearly quite a bit more impressed with his performance than I was but he made some encouraging throws and seemed to settle in and get more comfortable as the game went on, which could be a good sign. Hopefully, he'll get the start against Carolina and look terrific.

I was impressed at Cassel's decisiveness. I was impressed at how he controlled things. Maybe the lack of these qualities in Ponder has made me hyper-sensitive, but that's what I see. From his first throw, I was impressed with how he carried himself. I hope it continues.