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Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:53 pm
by Mothman
Just Me wrote:You're right, Jim. It did irritate me
OK - So the fact he is a possession receiver counts for nothing then? How about comparing the number of 3rd down receptions for a 1st down each made? On one hand he talks about wanting to compare the receivers to "their era" and then turns around and artificially (IMHO) creates a criteria which favors the receivers running the deep routes. TDs count for nothing then?
I warned you!
At least he acknowledged that CC was perhaps the greatest boundary receiver ever. However, he followed that with:
Perhaps we can better understand where these players belong by taking into account each of their careers in their entirety, and comparing Carter, Brown and Reed with other hall of fame receivers with numbers that transcend eras.
I get that stats/numbers count for something (and as you correctly point out, CC's TD numbers should count in a big way) but these players didn't play in an era that lacks recorded documentation or in a period most of these HOF voters never saw. They should be able to remember the performances, not just rely on the stats, and they should also have access to sufficient film to watch these players and refresh their memories of just how the players performed and what they meant to their teams. If they don't have access to film, that needs to be corrected. I saw plenty of Brown, Reed and Carter when they played and while I think all 3 have a legitimate case as a HOF candidates, I recall that even at the time, Carter was seen by many as the second best WR in the league behind Rice.
Dan Pompei is a Chicago-based writer and I'm almost certain he was here, covering the Bears, during most of CC's career with the Vikings so he should definitely have a good idea of just what CC brought to the game beyond what the stats say.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:27 pm
by CalVike
Fact is, best to prepare for another year of Cris Carter not getting in and to be ecstatic when he does. Pompei's article shows the problem, homers in Minnesota think he's first ballot, rest of country thinks he is run of the mill. I am not sure the perception can be overcome this year or ever. :wallbang
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:04 pm
by Just Me
Carter excelled in receptions but didn’t rate so well in receiving yards.
This didn't occur to me until later but I find it ironic that Carter is a
RECEIVER being considered for the HOF and this particular voter wants dismiss the number of
RECEPTIONS as somehow being only marginally significant for consideration.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:07 pm
by CalVike
There really is no logic at WR. Many made it via Super Bowl wins with subpar stats. Now Cris Carter seems a victim of a weird three way competition with two lesser WRs, one of whom played in 4 straight Super Bowls, which seems to matter to some. All seem to forget that when Cris Carter caught 120ish catches from Warren Moon in 1994, it was a big deal that had never been done before, even by Jerry Rice. And CC made boatloads of jaw dropping catches year in and year out. I personally cannot believe these voters either do not see it or choose to ignore it.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:16 pm
by PurpleMustReign
Before I thought Moss would be a 1st ballot HOF, but now I'm not so sure...
Refresh my memory, was Rice a 1st ballot? What about Tim Brown?
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:17 pm
by glg
Mothman wrote:Dan Pompei is a Chicago-based writer and I'm almost certain he was here, covering the Bears, during most of CC's career with the Vikings so he should definitely have a good idea of just what CC brought to the game beyond what the stats say.
You'd think maybe he'd remember a game like this one:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/b ... 140chi.htm
I know I do. Though he may not have been there, he was at the Sporting News at the time.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:26 pm
by Mothman
I remember it! I was there and if I remember correctly, you attended that game too.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:07 am
by CalVike
This article is old, from last Feb. It will make you even angrier. It makes a strong case on the weaknesses of Cris Carter.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=j ... ame_021612
Like Monk, Carter may never have been the best receiver on his own team in a given year. That may seem ludicrous, but look up the numbers and talk to people who played and coached against Minnesota from 1993 to 2000. Those eight seasons are the heart of Carter’s career, when he posted eight consecutive 1,000-yard seasons, including back-to-back years with 122 receptions (1994, ’95).
For four of the first five years of that run, Carter had Jake Reed on the other side, a guy who had at least 1,000 yards each season as well and averaged 16 yards a catch. For the next three years of that run, Carter had Randy Moss, who also had more than 1,000 yards each season and is the greatest deep threat in the history of the game (not greatest receiver, but greatest deep threat). Through it all, either Reed or Moss led the Vikings in receiving yards in every season from 1996 through 2001.
“Carter belongs [in the Hall], but he was never a guy who scared you. Never,” an NFC defensive coordinator said this week. “When you drew up the game plan, it was make sure you deal with Reed or [later] make sure you deal with Moss. Those were the guys who killed you. Carter got a lot of numbers because he was single-covered most of the time.”
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:47 am
by Mothman
Yeesh! What a load of crap.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:20 am
by soflavike
Mothman wrote:
Yeesh! What a load of crap.
No kidding. His numbers are more than good enough to be in the HOF, but it's the hands, the boundary skills and the reliability that make him a cinch. So he was cocky... So was Joe Namath, Shannon Sharpe and Jim Brown.
This is the year. CC 80: HOF
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:30 am
by Just Me
Mothman wrote:
Yeesh! What a load of crap.
It is indeed. So let me get this straight (I'll give him a pass on the Moss comment because that's probably legit) but JAKE REED?!?!?! Jake was a good receiver, no doubt, but he really expects me to believe DCs were more worried about Reed than Carter? "C'mon man!" He lost his credibility with that assertion IMHO...
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:17 am
by Mothman
Just Me wrote:It is indeed. So let me get this straight (I'll give him a pass on the Moss comment because that's probably legit) but JAKE REED?!?!?! Jake was a good receiver, no doubt, but he really expects me to believe DCs were more worried about Reed than Carter? "C'mon man!" He lost his credibility with that assertion IMHO...
Agreed. All that told me was that he didn't watch the games and he's paying too much attention to stats.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:42 am
by CalVike
One voters pre-meeting list includes Cris Carter ...
http://m.si.com/1411846/ravens-49ers-a- ... matchup-2/
The Hall of Fame class of 2013. As unpredictable a year as there’s been in a while, because there is not one sure thing on the 15-man list of modern-era finalists. Of the new guys, I sense Larry Allen is the strongest candidate. Of the returning candidates, Charles Haley. But I’m surprised by the process and the outcome every year. If I had to pick five logical enshrinees, I’d probably go Haley, Allen, Jonathan Ogden, Bill Parcells and Cris Carter.
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:46 am
by CalVike
Another article on Carter & HOF ...
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2013 ... ck_check=1
A quote from Cris Carter:
“I’m excited, I don’t push back from it. Not afraid of it,” he said. “All I can talk about is my perspective. It’s a tough gig. All the people you don’t have a vote, they tell me they would do much better if they have one. It’s tough, you look at that list. How to pick those names and how they do it.”
Re: HOF finalist?
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:03 pm
by CalVike
One HOF voter who offers ways to improve the process ...
http://m.si.com/1433111/whats-wrong-wit ... /3d2d4b63/
The most perplexing issue among fans entering today’s vote is why (pick a name) Brown, Carter or Reed isn’t in the Hall. The simple answer: The wide receivers repeatedly have split the vote among themselves, preventing each from garnering enough votes to make the cut to five. Will that change today? I doubt it. But that’s getting ahead of myself.
Instead, let’s focus on the matter at hand. The Hall wants your thoughts on the selection process. Mine is that the process will never be perfect; however, creating a separate category for non-players would be a step toward making it better.