Vikings Message Board.Com

dead_poet wrote: He has mediocre hands, a mediocre/poor blocker, isn't very physical and runs poor routes.

Which WR are you talking about? Aromashodu? Because one could say the exact same thing about Jenkins and/or Burton, except you'd also have to add that they're slow. Aromashodu can at least run and he has made a good catch here and there, which makes him better choice than the other two bozos. YMMV

As for Simpson, his game is gone the moment he can't run and jump, and that's exactly where he's at now.

losperros wrote: Which WR are you talking about? Aromashodu? Because one could say the exact same thing about Jenkins and/or Burton, except you'd also have to add that they're slow.

Burton apparently excels as a run blocker. Otherwise, you are correct.

Aromashodu can at least run and he has made a good catch here and there, which makes him better choice than the other two bozos. YMMV

I'll agree with that, but if he can't run precise routes, he's pretty easy to cover if he's not on a "go." Our receivers outside of Harvin are just varying degrees of suck. They just excel at sucking in different areas.

Mike Wallace - WR - Steelers

Mike Wallace attributes his uncharacteristic drops this season to a lack of focus caused by his diminished role in Todd Haley's spread-the-wealth offense.

"The first three years I was always involved, so you just warmed up in games, and you were just into it," explained Wallace. "But when you don't get the ball for two-and-half quarters, you lose focus. But that's the type of offense this is." It doesn't take a genius to see that the impending free agent and now "co-starter" is entering his final stretch of games in Pittsburgh. The writing is on the wall, though Wallace hasn't done his market value any favors with his inconsistent effort his season.
Source: Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

mansquatch wrote:I wanted to hit on something else you mentioned. Musgrave runs Harvin in the same way it seems, Harvin is a "slot" guy and he doesn't split him out wide enough. Same with Rudolph. I struggle with why Rudolph cant' be our possession guy, but it seems like he is limited to routes he is allowed to run. Not sure if he doesn't run others well or if Musgrave is pidgeon holing.

Who knows?

I've thought about that too. Fact is right now Rudolph IS the team's possession receiver. Seriously, who is doing it better? Rudolph should probably play from this TE spot most of the time but one has to figure he can split wide when necessary.

I agree about the pigeon-holing. What's that about? Why draft someone and hold his full potential back? Is it poor college scouting or is it Musgrave? Rudolph certainly had his moments as an outside receiver for Notre Dame and Wright wasn't used at all by the Razorbacks the way the Vikings utilize Percy Harvin. So why the stubbornness in locking these two guys into roles that limit them?

One other thing that's kind of unrelated but I'll go ahead and throw this in. Hopefully, the Childress era of WRs being run blockers first and foremost is over. The current group we're discussing are wide *receivers* and not wide run-blockers. Run blocking is good, even necessary, but the receiving part is far more important to the passing game.

dead_poet wrote:They just excel at sucking in different areas.

Ahem...I've never seen it put quite like that.

losperros wrote:I agree about the pigeon-holing. What's that about? Why draft someone and hold his full potential back? Is it poor college scouting or is it Musgrave? Rudolph certainly had his moments as an outside receiver for Notre Dame and Wright wasn't used at all by the Razorbacks the way the Vikings utilize Percy Harvin. So why the stubbornness in locking these two guys into roles that limit them?

This has bothered me, too. I'm chalking it up to coaches who have done this professionally for a long time knowing more than me. But I'm less concerned with what their statures say they can do than what they are actually capable of doing. There's no rule that says you HAVE to be at least 6'1 to play outside receiver. Is it nice? Sure. But it shouldn't be a requirement if you have the talents to get the job done. I'd have LOVED to see Havin used on the outside with Wright in the slot, or some kind of combination.

Reminds me of a quote from Apollo 13: "I don't care what it was designed to do. All I care about is what it CAN do."

One other thing that's kind of unrelated but I'll go ahead and throw this in. Hopefully, the Childress era of WRs being run blockers first and foremost is over. The current group we're discussing are wide *receivers* and not wide run-blockers. Run blocking is good, even necessary, but the receiving part is far more important to the passing game.

It gets murkier when you're a run-first team. If Aromashodu is a fraction better receiver than Burton do you put him in when Burton is (supposedly) a far superior run-blocker?

losperros wrote:I've thought about that too. Fact is right now Rudolph IS the team's possession receiver. Seriously, who is doing it better? Rudolph should probably play from this TE spot most of the time but one has to figure he can split wide when necessary.

They actually use him that way once in a while. I don't think they do it often because it's really not his game (at least at the pro level). He's not that fast and he's more likely to get a mismatch against an LB or safety inside than against a corner on the outside. Against those speedier outside defenders, he has a height advantage but he's not going to shake them very often.

I agree about the pigeon-holing. What's that about? Why draft someone and hold his full potential back? Is it poor college scouting or is it Musgrave? Rudolph certainly had his moments as an outside receiver for Notre Dame and Wright wasn't used at all by the Razorbacks the way the Vikings utilize Percy Harvin. So why the stubbornness in locking these two guys into roles that limit them?

Maybe it's not stubbornness. Personally, I don't see Rudolph as a player who has been locked into a limited role. They use him in a variety of ways. Regarding Wright, we don't have much of a sample yet but I think he's seen more time in the slot than outside and there might be a good reasons for that. For example, he's a rookie and the responsibilities of the receiving positions are different. Perhaps he's spent most of his time studying and practicing to play the slot position and not much time at flanker or split end. Maybe he doesn't do a good job against press coverage in practice and they want him to get a free release at the line (although he could still do that from the flanker position). I don't know... I'm just tossing out possibilities.

One other thing that's kind of unrelated but I'll go ahead and throw this in. Hopefully, the Childress era of WRs being run blockers first and foremost is over. The current group we're discussing are wide *receivers* and not wide run-blockers. Run blocking is good, even necessary, but the receiving part is far more important to the passing game.

I couldn't agree more. The receivers need to be able to block but getting open and catching the football is more important.

Seems to me that they split Harvin out wide most of the time this year. In fact, I'm having a hard time remembering many passes to a slot receiver other than Rudolph, who has lined up both in the slot and out wide.

Eli wrote:Seems to me that they split Harvin out wide most of the time this year. In fact, I'm having a hard time remembering many passes to a slot receiver other than Rudolph, who has lined up both in the slot and out wide.

I don't know if they split him out wide most of the time but they certainly put him out there in every game. They don't treat him like he's exclusively a slot receiver.

This thread, and the one about the defense, exemplifies the reason why the team's apparent solidarity around Ponder is about to break down.

If you're a WR on the Vikings and you read this stuff, and you're playing in games where you know you've been open and the ball hasn't come out and you never even got the chance to make a play on it, would you be OK with people ripping you as sucky when you know the QB is the one with the problem?

Or if you're part of the defense and you're getting called out because you didn't play a perfect defensive game while the QB handed points to the other team in 2 consecutive games, would you be OK with that?

I'm sure now it's just a matter of a few more games - maybe even one more game, before we start seeing more direct criticism of Ponder in the press by members of the team.

VikingLord wrote:If you're a WR on the Vikings and you read this stuff, and you're playing in games where you know you've been open and the ball hasn't come out and you never even got the chance to make a play on it, would you be OK with people ripping you as sucky when you know the QB is the one with the problem?

You can't ignore that the receivers aren't doing their jobs either. The blame isn't all on Ponder. That's not just me saying it. That's from professional analysts, beat guys and people that focus on this stuff more than the average fan. Like what's been mentioned before, this is a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Is Ponder not finding open receivers or are the receivers not open for Ponder to find? It's a combination (not to mention on the plays that the receivers might be marginally open, does Ponder have the time to find them?). We shouldn't have to keep mentioning how sucky our WRs are. There's plenty of blame to go around. If we had a Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald that wasn't getting the ball, then I think your point becomes much more valid.

Or if you're part of the defense and you're getting called out because you didn't play a perfect defensive game while the QB handed points to the other team in 2 consecutive games, would you be OK with that?

No. But I'd also wouldn't be okay with surrendering 15-17-play scoring drives either. What the offense does isn't their responsibility. While the offense needs to be a lot more efficient, the defense doesn't have to be perfect.

I'm sure now it's just a matter of a few more games - maybe even one more game, before we start seeing more direct criticism of Ponder in the press by members of the team.

I'd doubt that. If the coaching staff moves to Webb, the players will say stuff like "We support the coaching staff's decision" and "We have the utmost confidence in Joe." They can support the new guy without chastising the old.

VikingLord wrote:This thread, and the one about the defense, exemplifies the reason why the team's apparent solidarity around Ponder is about to break down.

If you're a WR on the Vikings and you read this stuff, and you're playing in games where you know you've been open and the ball hasn't come out and you never even got the chance to make a play on it, would you be OK with people ripping you as sucky when you know the QB is the one with the problem?

Oy... when beat writers, television analysts, former players, reporters and even the history of the players in question all say the Vikings WR corps isn't good then maybe it's time to just acknowledge it. There has been ample evidence this season that these players struggle to separate from defenders, drop passes in crucial situations and none of them, not one, have a history in the pros that suggests they're better than mediocre or worse. Simpson had one good season. Jenkins was always mediocre and now he's just over the hill. Aromashodu has bounced around the league so much because he's just not that good and Burton doesn't even belong in the league. That leaves Wright, who's made 3 starts and doesn't have enough history in the league for us to know what kind of player he is...he's actually been reasonably productive, despite the fact that he has a slumping QB throwing to him. Maybe that's because, like Harvin (who has also been very productive playing with Ponder) he's more talented than the rest of this crew.

Or if you're part of the defense and you're getting called out because you didn't play a perfect defensive game while the QB handed points to the other team in 2 consecutive games, would you be OK with that?

Nobody is calling the defense out for not playing a perfect game. Is it really okay for the defense to go on the road against a rival, in an important game, and commit inexcusable penalties, get pushed all over the field in the first quarter, allow the opposing team to hold the ball for 18 straight plays and consume 11 minutes in the 4th quarter of a close game...

... or is that all Ponder's fault?

You keep making the WRs sound like victims this year when they've been part of the problem, not innocents being run over the big, bad bulldozer of Christian Ponder's awful QB performances. This crew of has-beens and never-weres have contributed to Ponder's bad play. They don't excuse his bad passes or poor decisions and I don't think there's a fan or reporter claiming they do but they aren't victims either.

Wake up and smell the proverbial coffee, Edward. The QB isn't the only offensive player on the Vikings that's stunk it up for a good portion of the 2012 season.

People also have to realize that a lot of passing is timing and even if a guy comes open, he has to do it at the correct time. Ponder might not see a guy because he was read #1 and wasn't open until Ponder is looking at the other side of the field for read #3. That could be the WR fault more than the QB, we just can't know without understanding the minutia of the play.

That isn't to say it all on the WR either, Ponder has done much to deserve our ire. I just do not feel the WR have done anything to make me say they haven't been a part of the problem as well. The one thing that has seemed to be getting better is the protection.

dead_poet wrote: He has mediocre hands, a mediocre/poor blocker, isn't very physical and runs poor routes.

Therefore, he is the best receiver on the team right now.

808vikingsfan wrote:If you watch the GB game again, you'll notice Ponder locks in on his #1 from the snap on most of his passes. If it isnt open, he'll either just force it in, or he'll think there's pressure and start doing his run out of the pocket for no reason play. He shows no patience in the pocket. It seemed he would give up on a play before letting it develop.

I don't buy the chicken egg argument either. You can have the entire team play well, but ultimately, it's the performance of the QB that determines how well the team does. Look at Fitzgerald. If poor QB play can turn an elite WR into the #40th best WR in the league, imagine what a really bad QB can do to average WRs.

Ponder may be the Vikings future. But right now, he's playing worse than a backup QB. Pocket presence, accuracy, decision making, and footwork. I'll wait till he gets these fixed before I start bashing the WR's.

How he's playing right now isn't how he's played all season.

I see no reason why the receivers can't be judged on their performance just like Ponder is judged on his performance. We don't need him to be perfect before we can look at how they're playing. We can see how well they catch (or don't catch) the ball when targeted, how they get in and out of breaks, whether they are making good cuts or rounding off routes, etc. We can see if they're getting good separation from defenders or good leverage/position. There's a relationship between QB performance and WR performance so one definitely affects the other but it's a two way street.