Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

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Christian Ponder should ...

dive headfirst whenever possible because it is safer for him.
4
50%
slide feet first whenever possible because it is safer for him.
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

saint33
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by saint33 »

Mothman wrote: IF you're correct and he had plenty of time to get down then he wasn't hit because he went down head first, he was hit because he went down too late.

just rewatched every Ponder snap in Buffalo. He dove head first in traffic trying for a first down twice, one he was barely touched because he fell head first. The other "head first dive" he was caught from behind shortly after crossing the LOS. I wouldn't exactly call that taking unnecessary hits by diving head first, and I don't think any of the plays had realistic opportunities to dive feet first without traffic around.
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Mothman »

saint33 wrote:just rewatched every Ponder snap in Buffalo. He dove head first in traffic trying for a first down twice, one he was barely touched because he fell head first. The other "head first dive" he was caught from behind shortly after crossing the LOS. I wouldn't exactly call that taking unnecessary hits by diving head first, and I don't think any of the plays had realistic opportunities to dive feet first without traffic around.
Thanks for that info. I was having trouble recalling plays in the last game where he had plenty of time to slide and avoid being hit. Now I know why!
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Demi »

Man, how about show Ponder some clips of Locker? Slide feet first, don't get touched. Run out of bounds, don't get touched. At least someones coach is doing their job.
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Juice »

Demi wrote:Man, how about show Ponder some clips of Locker? Slide feet first, don't get touched. Run out of bounds, don't get touched. At least someones coach is doing their job.
0:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YjuBOsFyLY
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Vikingsfan4321 »

I don't understand the vitriol reaction to this news. To think that Musgraves just said "heck, try going headfirst this year, lets give that a try" is absurd. He has just as much, and in my opinion more evidence, to support his choice then anyone has to say feet first is safer. I think part of the issue is how people objectively think of the term slide and what actually happens during one. While you try to aim for a baseball type slide when you have space (IE 90ish degrees in relation to the way you were running) this rarely happens in my experience of watching everything for highschool to pro football. This slide give the quarterback the ability to absorb bigger hits by essentially making his body one long shock absorber that can roll or either way in the event of a hit. Unfortunately the truth is most quarterback, when near any kind of defender end up "sliding" like Quasimodo having a stroke. In this constricted form a tackle is basically a free hit that cant be deflected. While headfirst dives rarely result in this kind "constricting". Its just the human body. You can pull your head to your body in a slide, its much harder to pull your legs to your your torso during a dive. I think this is just musgraves trying to protect his quarterback from having the human response of "covering up" before he takes a big hit. A good example is Elways Superbowl dive. He just got helicoptered and got right up. Imagine if that hit had come after a football slide and he was sorta curled up on the field. That could have been it for Elway.

TL:DR

You never get hurt diving with the QuarterBack in Madden, Nuff said. :D
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Just Me »

Vikingsfan4321 wrote:I don't understand the vitriol reaction to this news. To think that Musgraves just said "heck, try going headfirst this year, lets give that a try" is absurd. He has just as much, and in my opinion more evidence, to support his choice then anyone has to say feet first is safer. I think part of the issue is how people objectively think of the term slide and what actually happens during one. While you try to aim for a baseball type slide when you have space (IE 90ish degrees in relation to the way you were running) this rarely happens in my experience of watching everything for highschool to pro football. This slide give the quarterback the ability to absorb bigger hits by essentially making his body one long shock absorber that can roll or either way in the event of a hit. Unfortunately the truth is most quarterback, when near any kind of defender end up "sliding" like Quasimodo having a stroke. In this constricted form a tackle is basically a free hit that cant be deflected. While headfirst dives rarely result in this kind "constricting". Its just the human body. You can pull your head to your body in a slide, its much harder to pull your legs to your your torso during a dive. I think this is just musgraves trying to protect his quarterback from having the human response of "covering up" before he takes a big hit. A good example is Elways Superbowl dive. He just got helicoptered and got right up. Imagine if that hit had come after a football slide and he was sorta curled up on the field. That could have been it for Elway.
I don't know that I'd characterize any of the responses as 'vitriolic.' As I said, it seems counterintuitive (to me) but I don't have enough data to evaluate the soundness of Musgrave's decision. Just because a coach puts thought into a decision doesn't mean it is a good one. (I'm not saying its a bad decision by Musgrave - I simply don't know). Childress put alot of thought into the KAO too. It doesn't mean that when all factors were considered, it was the best choice. For your example of Elway, there was Juice's post with the youtube link. Still insufficient data - or at least my knowledge of it. If I take only the Elway and Locker example do I conclude that 50% of headfirst dives result in a QB being injured (or at least down on the field)? Or do I conclude that because Locker was fine after the hit (despite a scare where he says he can't see) that the final outcome was him walking off under his own power that was a "vote" in support of the 'head first' strategy? Coaches make decisions based on data, yes - but so was the 'Randy ratio.'
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Mothman »

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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Purple bruise »

Man that is too funny. I can't see I can't see. That's because your helmet is over your eyes :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Just Me »

Mothman wrote:More coverage of slidegate:
:rofl:

Good article though. It lists some pros and cons of the approach. It does say that Musgrave's primary goal (my paraphrase) is for Ponder to "get down".

"slidegate" :rofl:
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by VikingLord »

The NFL wants to protect QB's. Because they want to protect them, they put in a special rule saying when the QB becomes a runner he can slide feet first and if someone touches him (not hits - touches) on the defensive side it's a 15 yard penalty. This rule doesn't apply to any other position. WR's have the ball and slide feet-first, they can get plowed and no foul. Ditto for RB's. So since players at those positions *aren't* protected by rule, and they're going to take a hit no matter what they do, well then sure, go head-first and try to pick up more yards.

I would argue that a pro QB should *always* try to slide. There might be times when he needs extra yards in a critical game and has to sacrifice for the team, but if a QB is frequently finding himself in situations where it isn't "safe" to slide feet-first then that QB isn't playing the position right. He's trying to be a hero or thinks he has running skills, is young and stupid, or isn't getting good coaching (or all of the above).

Ponder's career will be cut short if he continues to go head-first into contact. He already struggled with numerous injuries last year that cost him several games. Musgrave can invent his own reality (seems to be kind of a theme with this coaching staff), but all I say is look at the rule, ask yourself why the rule is there, and make sure your supposedly smart young, franchise QB takes advantage of it's protections.
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Mothman »

VikingLord wrote:The NFL wants to protect QB's. Because they want to protect them, they put in a special rule saying when the QB becomes a runner he can slide feet first and if someone touches him (not hits - touches) on the defensive side it's a 15 yard penalty. This rule doesn't apply to any other position. WR's have the ball and slide feet-first, they can get plowed and no foul. Ditto for RB's. So since players at those positions *aren't* protected by rule, and they're going to take a hit no matter what they do, well then sure, go head-first and try to pick up more yards.

I would argue that a pro QB should *always* try to slide. There might be times when he needs extra yards in a critical game and has to sacrifice for the team, but if a QB is frequently finding himself in situations where it isn't "safe" to slide feet-first then that QB isn't playing the position right. He's trying to be a hero or thinks he has running skills, is young and stupid, or isn't getting good coaching (or all of the above).
... or he's being an actual football player. :) I think we have to remember that QBs don't just run when they have a nice, wide open space in front of them for scrambling. They often run when pressure forces them out of the pocket. When that happens, sliding isn't always possible.

QBs get hit. It's part of the game. They can get hit if they stay in the pocket and they can get hit when they leave the pocket. They shouldn't be reckless and nobody is suggesting Ponder should be reckless (or that he should ignore the sliding rule that works in his favor). However, there aren't plenty of situations in which sliding is all but impossible or potentially more dangerous. The QB needs room to slide.
Ponder's career will be cut short if he continues to go head-first into contact.
That may be true but again, he isn't being coached to go head-first into contact. He's not being told to lower his head and shoulders and take on tacklers like a running back. He's being coached to get down. As Musgrave said in the article I linked to above: "What's really important when a quarterback runs is getting down in a timely manner as those defenders converge". Musgrave isn't inventing his own reality. He's trying to teach his young QB to use his best judgment, that there are situations in which attempting to slide will get you hurt, not protect you. Ponder experienced that himself last year against Washington. He tried to slide, didn't have enough room to pull it off and ended up with a bloody nose after a hard hit. Trent Green was practically decapitated a few years ago trying to use the rule you're talking about, which is precisely why a QB shouldn't always try to slide. They should slide when they have space to do so but otherwise, they should do what they can to avoid injury and if that means getting down head first in some situations, that's what a QB should do.
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Demi »

Vikings say this is the best way. So it must be. They're clearly on top of so many other things in the league, I'm not sure why we're even discussing this. Brady, Manning, any QB with any sense slides immediately to avoid contact. For every video Musgrave has pointing out injuries for feet first, you can find hundreds of guys sliding and not even being touched. The guys a buffoon and this is just another example.

Getting run over by a car is safer than going swimming!
*shows videos of people drowning*
*shows video of people surviving run ins with cars*
"It's a personal preference. What's really important when a quarterback runs is getting down in a timely manner as those defenders converge. You can maximize and squeeze out the last possible yard but at the same time maintain your health so you can line up for the next play," Musgrave said.
Yes Bill. By sliding. And not getting hit at all. Why can't every coach in the NFL be as wise and all knowing as Bill "Lombardi" Musgrave? Gimme a break.

I especially love them pointing out Ponders concussion on a head first slide. Was that in your little video Musgrave? :roll:
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Mothman »

Demi wrote:
It probably was but it wasn't a head first slide. Ponder was sliding feet first, which reinforces what Musgrave is saying: it's not always safer to slide that way. The important thing is for the QB to get down and protect himself in whatever way will work best for the situation.
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Re: Christian Ponder diving headfirst?

Post by Demi »

Which is fine. When you don't emphasize feet first slides as "safe". All we're saying is sliding feet first and not getting hit is going to have a better outcome for Ponders health than sliding head first and getting hit 100% of the time. If he's going to fight for a first down, fine. In a preseason game? Just slide a yard or two short and call it a play. It's easy for Musgrave to say "just get down" when Ponder seems to sound like he's been convinced he should go head first on 100% of his scrambles. Is the message getting crossed?

(feet first, head first, slide. arg can't even keep it straight anymore.)
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