Vick gets 23 months

[Colinito]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I think I have a pretty good comparison on this.

I'm not gay, but I have some friends that are gay, and I'm sensitive to the fact that they are one of the most slighted minorities in America right now. I don't like the F-word (the "other" F-word, the original F-word is great!) or anti-gay statements.

As I have stated before, the Vikings are my one and only football PASSION. I'm not on any other team message boards or anything. But I am a casual Titans fan due to Vince being on the team, and the fact that they are AFC.

Well, last year at the rookie symposium, the first openly gay ex-NFL player came and spoke. LenDale White raised his hand and asked him, "Is it okay to call you a F-word if you are a F-word?" I mean blatant, homophobic disrespect.

It was harder for me to root for the Titans after that, because I just don't like LenDale. But, you know, at a certain point I realized that these are football players. If I were in the locker room, I'd probably be repulsed by most of them. If they're like the football players at my high school, they're mostly a bunch of idiot jocks. Okay, so there are some Matt Birks out there that seem genuinely smart and cool. But there's probably a whole lot of douchebags too.

I guess I realized that I don't watch them because they are good people, I watch them because they are good players. My favorite players are ones I like as players and people, but I accept that these guys are the tough guys of the world, and that's why they play football, not because they are socially progressive or anything...

So while it would be even harder for me to have Vick on a team I like compared to LenDale (who didn't actually *kill* any gay people, to my knowledge), I'd hope that if he rehabilitated himself and came back that fans could root for him or boo him based on his football playing. They'd probably still end up booing him.

[DanAS1]

Colinto,

I'm trying to think how I would compare Vick to, say, someone who is a vocal anti-Semite. That's my "other" minority group (if you want to call animal-rights freaks a minority group).

It's certainly true that I have boycotted Mel Gibson films ever since the hoopla came out about him and his attitude toward members of my tribe. That's not to say I don't want him to be able to make a living ... or even to make a living in Hollywood, but I rapidly change the channel when I know Mel is in a movie aired on TV. My point about the NFL is simply that it's not like we can just "change teams" like we change movie channels. We should be able to watch "our team" without having to look at people whose acts were truly unspeakable. It's not like we have any reason to be confident that they have been rehabilitated.

Besides, lots of people have said things over the years about my religion. Or about gay people, for that matter. Words piss me off (see the Gibson discussion above). But they are just words. Killing and torturing is different. And what Vick has been accused of doing involves killing and torturing. Do I need to see him incarcerated for 20 years? No, because he didn't kill and torture people. But what he did kill and torture .. my God, if they are not the most beautiful and loving things I've known in this planet, they are pretty darned close. I simply don't need to be imagining his unspeakable conduct every time I sit back and watch my Vikings.

Hope that helps as an explanation. As with everything else, there's no "answer" to these issues. There are simply perspectives, which themselves reveal values. I value dogs extremely, EXTREMELY highly -- even that bichon #### I have at home that yaps every time I try to eat and steals her older brother's food whenever she can.

[Mr. X]

When Vick becomes eligible for reinstatement in the NFL and if the Vikings were to sign him I would have no problem with that. Giving someone a second chance after he's paid his debt to society is a good thing; not a bad thing. If on the other hand you want to advocate a personal policy of ostracizing Vick for the rest of his life that is your prerogative.

[Colinito]

Hope that helps as an explanation. As with everything else, there's no "answer" to these issues. There are simply perspectives, which themselves reveal values. I value dogs extremely, EXTREMELY highly -- even that bichon #### I have at home that yaps every time I try to eat and steals her older brother's food whenever she can.

It is funny that Fri-se is a banned word. Some weird banned words on this board!

You know, I don't know if this will make sense, but one night maybe 3 years ago I ate some acid and was sitting on my front porch smoking cigarettes and our neighbor at the time had this old dog that he kept outside. And I think it was rainy or cold, and I could often hear this dog whining and lonely and it broke my heart.

But I was sitting there, and in the infinite wisdom of LSD started thinking about all the dogs in the world that were mistreated. I wasn't even thinking about dog-fighting, because I wasn't even aware it was a big thing at the time, but just dogs like my neighbor's, sitting outside or neglected or beaten or lonely. And I realized and said to myself, "Well, that's just the life of a dog sometimes. It's nothing that I or they can control."

It doesn't excuse horrific actions, but I mean, there are some awful damn things in the world. Things that sometimes are so hard to digest. Abuse to dogs, rape, torture.... That senator or congressman a while ago who liked little girls and got busted on the phone saying that her "handler" wouldn't even have to take her to the hospital afterwards and I'm just like "AAAHHH!" People are so #### sick sometimes. It's a hard, cruel world and some disgusting things happen. Kids are neglected or abused and turn into neglectors and abusers. The cycle goes around and it's a rough damn world and always has been.

Anyway, as hard as it is to deal with emotionally (see "I Can't Go to Sleep" by Wu-Tang), you can't go in the other direction, you can't be reactive about it. You can't lose tolerance, compassion, and understanding because of it. Che once said "Cruel leaders are overthrown just to have new leaders turn cruel." He was talking about Fidel, and I think it is an easy trap to fall into. "With all their talk of paradise you will not hear a laugh." But we always have to be open to love and forgiveness. I was going to mention Jesus, but you just mentioned you're Jewish. But hey, I'm atheist and I look to Jesus as a role model.

50 Cent once said that "God's favorites have the hardest time" and I always thought of that like the caring, sensitive people are sometimes the ones with the most tortured souls, because they are so open to all the suffering. But you can't let it change you. You can't let the sickos win.

As is with the case of Mel Gibson, luckily you can count on these types of people "beating themselves." Your boycott of Mel Gibson is far less effective than Mel Gibson sticking his foot in his mouth and saying weird things all the time, or inserting some of his emotional problems (such as bloodlust) into his movies. Those are the things causing him to lose his appeal with the public, and now the producers. Vick's immaturity similarly bled onto the football field, and his problems as a football player were directly related to his problems as a person. And he probably will not take responsibility for his life and do the things necessary to be a better person and get back into pro football... but if he does, well good for him!

[DanAS1]

When Vick becomes eligible for reinstatement in the NFL and if the Vikings were to sign him I would have no problem with that. Giving someone a second chance after he's paid his debt to society is a good thing; not a bad thing. If on the other hand you want to advocate a personal policy of ostracizing Vick for the rest of his life that is your prerogative.

You keep making my argument for me. Every time I state a position -- and try to state how my position is limited -- you come back with hyperbole. "Ostracizing Vick for the rest of his life" is never something I advocated. The next thing I know, you'll quote me as saying that I favor thermonuclear war because such a war would result in the killing of Mike Vick.

Please. I recognize my view is arguable -- meaning that it is arguably irrational. You don't need to resort to mocking hyperbole to criticize it. I have better things to do than to respond to that. If all you are saying is that you think Vick should be able to return and those fans who want to avoid watching can do that too, then I can understand that position. I don't think it is fair to the latter group, but it is certainly a somewhat defensible position.

[DanAS1]

Colinto --

I'm not saying we should punish Vick indefinitely. Or "not forgive him." I'm saying that as a matter of compassion for those fans who view what he did as montrous -- i.e., if it were done to people he'd be in jail for longer than 2 years -- he forgoes the privilege of playing in the NFL. Please try to remember that this isn't an argument based on retribution at all. In fact, while you make an argument for empathy for Vick, all I'm saying is that the league should have empathy for all the fans who were so greatly affected by what Vick did (and represents) that they can't deal with seeing him on the football field.

[Hunter Morrow]

Do you think the situation would be any different if Vick were say, a burglar, car thief, vandal/arsonist? Basically if it were crimes against property rather than crimes against animals? Animals, and dogs in particular, are just about the only thing that would seriously tarnish his image. Even slurring religious people and minorities doesn't kill a career as bad. Mel Gibson, already raised in the thread, is still around and doing great.

[glg]

It is funny that Fri-se is a banned word. Some weird banned words on this board!

Friese isn't banned. A word for a female one is.

[Colinito]

glg:

Friese isn't banned. A word for a female one is.

That's funny, I re-read it now and see the light! Thanks. Now can you help with the Jesus thing? Just because I may reference him historically sometimes. But I understand if people don't want his name uttered profanely.


And in response to Hunter Morrow, I would just say that Mel Gibson isn't doing "great." He's got a real bad rep around Hollywood now. But you have a point. And DanAS1 proved it just in his posts. Dogs can create this connection that is just unbelievable. People just love them, and if you're gonna get caught on something...well this one sucks. I don't think they should be treated any differently in court, but it still sucks (for them) (and good).

EDIT: I live with my sister and her dog Rubin Carter (a huge black presumably lab-shephard mix) just had ACL surgery. We built some sort of fenced-off area for him in the living room, but apparently it's common for the surgery to come undone in these first few weeks, so any positive energy his way will be appreciated.

[DanAS1]

Do you think the situation would be any different if Vick were say, a burglar, car thief, vandal/arsonist? Basically if it were crimes against property rather than crimes against animals? Animals, and dogs in particular, are just about the only thing that would seriously tarnish his image. Even slurring religious people and minorities doesn't kill a career as bad. Mel Gibson, already raised in the thread, is still around and doing great.

If it involved child molestation, say, than I think it would be even worse. There are certain crimes that tug at your heart most of all. Vick picked one of them.