Game day comments: giants/vikings

[JJBreaksRecords]

I wonder why this team doesnt handle when they are blitzed, very well. Going back to Zimmer. Is it the fact that our Oline is even worse than our Dline, performing their duties?

[Texas Vike]

I can't say I agree, Cliff. I highly doubt that KOC told him to play with CBs 10 yards off and allow mediocre QBs look like Johnny Unitas.

Why is that hard to believe?

Because KOC expects better than that. We had reports after the Lions game that KOC met with Donatell and urged him to make some changes ahead of the Colts game.

O'Connell said,

“Hey, here’s how I would attack your defense if I was scheming against it… Be less predictable,”

That's pretty clear evidence that KOC wasn't content with the job Ed was doing. His firing confirms it. I think I understand the point you've been trying to make in a few threads. You are arguing that KOC was the one who wanted a 3-4 Fangio-style scheme and that is exactly what Donatell delivered. I would counter two things: 1) KOC obviously wasn't happy with the job Ed did (thus the firing) and 2) it may well be that KOC has evolved in his thinking regarding the kind of defensive scheme he wants his team to run. His choice for the next DC will answer this.

My read is that most folks think D. Hunter is the guy to build our D around and that he is best with his hand in the dirt in a 4-3. I won't pretend to know much about defensive X's and O's, but any attentive fan can see that this year's defense was so monumentally bad that it completely hindered our prospects at any post season success. Was that in part due to a severe lack of talent on D? No doubt. Was that made much worse by Donatell and his inability to be flexible and adjust his scheme to the strengths and weaknesses of the players on this team, I would answer with a resounding YES, which is why I'm very glad he was released.

[Cliff]

That's pretty clear evidence that KOC wasn't content with the job Ed was doing. His firing confirms it. I think I understand the point you've been trying to make in a few threads. You are arguing that KOC was the one who wanted a 3-4 Fangio-style scheme and that is exactly what Donatell delivered. I would counter two things: 1) KOC obviously wasn't happy with the job Ed did (thus the firing) and 2) it may well be that KOC has evolved in his thinking regarding the kind of defensive scheme he wants his team to run. His choice for the next DC will answer this.

That is more or less my point. I'm good with firing Donatell but the complaints I've heard throughout the year have all been about scheme. The players starting so far back on so many different plays, for example. In my mind Donatell helped implement the scheme KOC wanted and if your beef is more with the scheme than play calling, Donatell going isn't going to change a ton.

He might not have been happy with Donatell or he might be going with a different scheme ... or his hand may have been forced by public outcry. I don't know that I've ever seen so much venom spit at a defensive coordinator of a 13 win team. No doubt the defense wasn't great but it's impossible to win that many games if your defense is completely inept. A 33 point comeback (or any of the comebacks/close games) doesn't happen without the defense not allowing a score while the offense was putting up points.

At this point I think it's as simple as there isn't very much talent on the defense. Donatell didn't take a good or even average defense and run it into the ground. The defense was already a dumpster fire and implementing a new scheme just didn't help which isn't a shock.

Donatell needed to go but if the roster doesn't change significantly I don't think anybody running the defense is going to have much success.

My read is that most folks think D. Hunter is the guy to build our D around and that he is best with his hand in the dirt in a 4-3. I won't pretend to know much about defensive X's and O's, but any attentive fan can see that this year's defense was so monumentally bad that it completely hindered our prospects at any post season success. Was that in part due to a severe lack of talent on D? No doubt. Was that made much worse by Donatell and his inability to be flexible and adjust his scheme to the strengths and weaknesses of the players on this team, I would answer with a resounding YES, which is why I'm very glad he was released.

I don't think the person to build this defense around is even on the team yet. Most of the players on it, including Hunter, were brought in to play a completely different style of football.

I can see a situation where change makes things worse. "Be more aggressive" ... and what happens when your guys still can't get there?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing who gets brought in.

[Texas Vike]

I don't know that I've ever seen so much venom spit at a defensive coordinator of a 13 win team.

I think this is where we differ most. I think the venom is more than justified. This team won 13 games DESPITE a defense that allowed the 3rd worst amount of points, averaging 25.4 per game. If the philosophy was "bend but don't break" one would expect poor stats for yardage given up, but the only stat that matters on D IMO is points given up. And 25.4/ game means you DID break, often. Imagine if we were even average, like #15 the Bucs or #16 the Chiefs. They gave up 21.6 and 21.7 a game, respectively. That takes a lot of pressure off of your offense and we all know that this offense can put up more than 21 a game consistently.

But I will say that where we are in agreement is this: Having to move on from your DC after your first year as HC is not a good thing for KOC. He needs to get his next hire right. I would really like someone who aligns better with his style and philosophy. Donatell was an odd fit, culture-wise, from the get go.

[Cliff]

I don't know that I've ever seen so much venom spit at a defensive coordinator of a 13 win team.

I think this is where we differ most. I think the venom is more than justified. This team won 13 games DESPITE a defense that allowed the 3rd worst amount of points, averaging 25.4 per game. If the philosophy was "bend but don't break" one would expect poor stats for yardage given up, but the only stat that matters on D IMO is points given up. And 25.4/ game means you DID break, often. Imagine if we were even average, like #15 the Bucs or #16 the Chiefs. They gave up 21.6 and 21.7 a game, respectively. That takes a lot of pressure off of your offense and we all know that this offense can put up more than 21 a game consistently.

But I will say that where we are in agreement is this: Having to move on from your DC after your first year as HC is not a good thing for KOC. He needs to get his next hire right. I would really like someone who aligns better with his style and philosophy. Donatell was an odd fit, culture-wise, from the get go.

You're not wrong, but I question who's "fault" that is. After having researched the topic so much at this point I believe talent is just that poor on the defensive side of the ball. They gave up 25.1 ppg in 2021 and a crazy 29.7 in 2020. Different system, different coaches, same (or worse) results.

Stats aside though, the defense helped put the team in positions to win games. Over and over again when they needed to come up with a stop or a takeaway or a big play they seemed to answer the call more often than not. Especially with the game on the line at the end. There's just no stat for that.

[Maelstrom88]

[allday1991]

Interesting hearing the break down of the 3rd down play before last. Although he admitted it wasn’t the greatest throw he also mentioned Osborne ran a poor route. Makes sense going WR 1st overall, the way defences react to jj someone else should be eating.

[CharVike]

This guy puts out some good vids. He points out things clearly. It's amazing how much confusion JJ can create. That will be Cpt checkdown signature play for his entire career. That DT (97) for the Giants was a beast against us. He was a man playing against boys. I read that the Giants didn't blitz at all in the 4th quarter. They sent their lowest blitz rate of the year (23%), after blitzing at the highest rate in the NFL during the regular season (44%) from Doug Clawson. If we could block the Giants would have to blitz which would have created some spaces. One of these plays cpt checkdown won't get back up. That hit he took when Cleveland was run over was brutal.

[J. Kapp 11]

This guy puts out some good vids. He points out things clearly. It's amazing how much confusion JJ can create. That will be Cpt checkdown signature play for his entire career. That DT (97) for the Giants was a beast against us. He was a man playing against boys. I read that the Giants didn't blitz at all in the 4th quarter. They sent their lowest blitz rate of the year (23%), after blitzing at the highest rate in the NFL during the regular season (44%) from Doug Clawson. If we could block the Giants would have to blitz which would have created some spaces. One of these plays cpt checkdown won't get back up. That hit he took when Cleveland was run over was brutal.

Wow. What an outstanding video. I watched it all the way to the end, and backed up a few times to re-watch some things. Thanks for posting this. I've now subscribed to his channel.

You guys want to see how to evaluate quarterback play (and play design), watch this.

[psjordan]

Wow. What an outstanding video.

I thought so too but with one glaring omission - he never mentions Dalvin Cook's ability to read the blitzes and pick up the right guys (on several of the plays shown). I wonder if Kirk will miss that when (if) it's gone. I hope they come to some resolution and Cook stays at the right price.

[VikingLord]

Interesting hearing the break down of the 3rd down play before last. Although he admitted it wasn’t the greatest throw he also mentioned Osborne ran a poor route. Makes sense going WR 1st overall, the way defences react to jj someone else should be eating.

I meant to respond to the point you made but got distracted. Better late than never I suppose.

I enjoyed the analysis on that throw because I thought Cousins missed on it when I watched it live. It might be true that Cousins could have thrown a better ball, or maybe thrown it earlier in the route, but after watching the analysis of it, it's pretty clear that Osborne ran a lazy route and it highlights the importance of precise route running and the little extras that lead to both separation and increasing the odds of success on any given throw.

And perhaps it also illustrates why the Vikings aren't sold on Osborne taking the place of Adam Thielen, who made his name with precision on routes and doing all the little things needed to be successful at the pro level. Osborne has made some nice plays during his time with the Vikings, but I've often wondered why he never seemed to take that next step and consistently make plays, and the deeper look into that particular play in the playoff game is a big clue as to why. Yes it was late in the game, and Osborne was probably getting tired (although I don't honestly know how many snaps he played prior to this particular play). However, how much extra effort would it have taken for him to make the fake to go up the field coming out of his break? As the analysis notes, that simple little false step up the field would have thrown the defender off the route enough to make it almost impossible for him to undercut the throw. Osborne might have still been technically covered when the ball reached him, but the defender would have been at best in a much worse position to make a play on the ball. As it was, the defender didn't need to be in a perfect position to break up that pass.

Addison is known for being a detailed route runner ala JJ. He's known for his ability to consistently do the little things that create separation and increase the chances of completions. Osborne, it would appear, is not that receiver. He's been in the league for a few season already and still hasn't taken that extra step (no pun intended), which makes me doubt he ever will.

Since Addison was taken in the 1st I think most expect him to win the #2 WR job based on his draft position. I don't think that does justice to the opportunity that Osborne had (and might still have) to win that job ala what Cam Bynum did last year at the safety position, winning it outright despite Cine being a 1st round pick at the position. But in the end, all pro players are excellent athletes. All of them can run, hit, catch, block, etc. What differentiates the starters from the backups is, for the most part, attention to detail and consistency in that attention to detail. The ability and willingness to do all the little things that add or remove the extra inch or two between success and failure on any given play. Osborne, for whatever reason, didn't make that effort on a play that Cousins took a lot of heat for.

I still blame Cousins on the final throw, though.

[CharVike]

Interesting hearing the break down of the 3rd down play before last. Although he admitted it wasn’t the greatest throw he also mentioned Osborne ran a poor route. Makes sense going WR 1st overall, the way defences react to jj someone else should be eating.

I meant to respond to the point you made but got distracted. Better late than never I suppose.

I enjoyed the analysis on that throw because I thought Cousins missed on it when I watched it live. It might be true that Cousins could have thrown a better ball, or maybe thrown it earlier in the route, but after watching the analysis of it, it's pretty clear that Osborne ran a lazy route and it highlights the importance of precise route running and the little extras that lead to both separation and increasing the odds of success on any given throw.

And perhaps it also illustrates why the Vikings aren't sold on Osborne taking the place of Adam Thielen, who made his name with precision on routes and doing all the little things needed to be successful at the pro level. Osborne has made some nice plays during his time with the Vikings, but I've often wondered why he never seemed to take that next step and consistently make plays, and the deeper look into that particular play in the playoff game is a big clue as to why. Yes it was late in the game, and Osborne was probably getting tired (although I don't honestly know how many snaps he played prior to this particular play). However, how much extra effort would it have taken for him to make the fake to go up the field coming out of his break? As the analysis notes, that simple little false step up the field would have thrown the defender off the route enough to make it almost impossible for him to undercut the throw. Osborne might have still been technically covered when the ball reached him, but the defender would have been at best in a much worse position to make a play on the ball. As it was, the defender didn't need to be in a perfect position to break up that pass.

Addison is known for being a detailed route runner ala JJ. He's known for his ability to consistently do the little things that create separation and increase the chances of completions. Osborne, it would appear, is not that receiver. He's been in the league for a few season already and still hasn't taken that extra step (no pun intended), which makes me doubt he ever will.

Since Addison was taken in the 1st I think most expect him to win the #2 WR job based on his draft position. I don't think that does justice to the opportunity that Osborne had (and might still have) to win that job ala what Cam Bynum did last year at the safety position, winning it outright despite Cine being a 1st round pick at the position. But in the end, all pro players are excellent athletes. All of them can run, hit, catch, block, etc. What differentiates the starters from the backups is, for the most part, attention to detail and consistency in that attention to detail. The ability and willingness to do all the little things that add or remove the extra inch or two between success and failure on any given play. Osborne, for whatever reason, didn't make that effort on a play that Cousins took a lot of heat for.

I still blame Cousins on the final throw, though.

It's been pointed out that Osborne can't get separation. That is probably why he has these break out games and then disappears for weeks. It all depends on who he is playing against. If it's a below average cover guy then sure he can get separation. If the guy is above average then he's done. I see him becoming a FA once his rookie deal is up. He was given a chance. The 1st rounder they picked will be a good player. But we will still have the same old problem we have had for a long time and that's not controlling the LOS. That will be our downfall again against these teams with good to great front lines like the Eagles, 49ers ect. Cousins check down on 4th down will be his career signature play. Just like wrong way Marshall and his signature play. Hopefully the guy they picked at WR last year will step up and contribute.