Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

[Mothman]

I agree that they need to build a better OL. But the reason I am saying tackle is because our OL would look much better right now if we had someone worth a damn at OT. Not a first round guard or center sitting on the bench. We could still function this year. Having a first round guard on the bench still doesnt allow us to function in our current state. Having a tackle possibly does. And our only shot for the most part was Spriggs. It's not like there was 5 tackles out there to choose from and we passed on all of them.

They can only draft one player per pick anyway.

The current situation isn't the only concern and a first round guard might not necessarily be sitting on the bench. Maybe a first round guard would be an upgrade who was starting by now and Fusco would be relegated to the bench. Perhaps that player could be starting for Boone and Boone could be bumped out to LT in place of the inept T.J. Clemmings. Maybe someone like Whitehair would have made a better emergency right tackle than the players they've had to use. Improving the overall talent level and building toward the future also adds depth and provides options.

Nor did I say anything was impossible. It's simply that the options were extremely limited over the past few years especially at OT.

Limited options are still options.

You've been presented with precisely the kind of answers you complain you don't receive and now it seems you;re attempting to rationalize them away with unconvincing arguments like "he's a mystery" or "I'm looking for tackles".

Your assertion that there weren't "much", if any, OL available is demonstrably false. Your question about who the Vikes could have drafted other Treadwell has been asked and answered. If you don't like some of the alternatives that have been suggested, that's fine but they were available. They were viable choices, players who were drafted, who made NFL rosters, who are getting on the field and playing this season. They are players who might have helped the Vikings get a fresh start on building a better line, a start they clearly need.

[Mothman]

This all started with Treadwell being a bust/project/or whatever else you want to call him. My point from the beginning was it's impossible to know what he is or what he can do when he has next to nothing for a sample size. And this is now where we ended up. I wanted Treadwell from day 1. I wasnt sold on Johnson and didnt think Thielen and Patterson would do what they've done this year. I wasnt a fan of those late round OL prospects outside of probably Whitehair. I dont think picking Treadwell was a bad pick. If he turns out to be a bust, I'll eat crow. But to call him that right now is laughable

Yes, but we're not calling him a bust. We're questioning Rick Spielman's judgment.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Yes, but we're not calling him a bust. We're questioning Rick Spielman's judgment.

I've counted about 5 guys on this board already call him a bust. Which then branched into this thread. And I'm saying its impossible to evaluate with such a small sample size. Just like Waynes last year. Even to say he is a project is something I dont agree with either. That is where all of this started. It would be much easier to question Spielmans judgement when you actually KNOW what kind of player Treadwell is.

Side note: I never received an answer regarding Myles Jack either

[Pondering Her Percy]

They can only draft one player per pick anyway.

The current situation isn't the only concern and a first round guard might not necessarily be sitting on the bench. Maybe a first round guard would be an upgrade who was starting by now and Fusco would be relegated to the bench. Perhaps that player could be starting for Boone and Boone could be bumped out to LT in place of the inept T.J. Clemmings. Maybe someone like Whitehair would have made a better emergency right tackle than the players they've had to use. Improving the overall talent level and building toward the future also adds depth and provides options.

I mean yeah I suppose that could be possible. However, I'm not going to sit here and complain about the Treadwell pick until I know for sure what kind of player he is.

Limited options are still options.

You've been presented with precisely the kind of answers you complain you don't receive and now it seems you;re attempting to rationalize them away with unconvincing arguments like "he's a mystery" or "I'm looking for tackles".

I just did a half page analysis in another thread regarding all the OTs in the past 3 draft classes between rounds 1-2. And there were how many that panned out?? 2? 3? Not many I know that. I've been talking about tackles for how long now??? I'm not trying to rationalize anything away as much as you like to believe I am. I havent mentioned guard hardly at all. Could Fusco be replaced? Yeah. But Berger and Boone are set IMO. You're the one bringing up the guards. Not me. Sorry I didnt word it properly which you always seem to catch in a previous post. I've been referring to tackles since we've started this OL mess weeks ago.

Nor am I trying to "complain" that I dont receive answers. I just think it's pretty stupid to see we shoulda went OL like OL are just falling from the sky but provide no backing behind it. You gave me primarily guards. And one tackle. Yes one option is an option. But my point is, it was extremely slim pickings. Just like it has been over the last 3 years. There are fans on here (NOT YOU JIM) that dont seem to realize that.

[Mothman]

I've counted about 5 guys on this board already call him a bust.

Perhaps but you're not in a discussion with them right now.

Which then branched into this thread. And I'm saying its impossible to evaluate with such a small sample size. Just like Waynes last year. Even to say he is a project is something I dont agree with either. That is where all of this started. It would be much easier to question Spielmans judgement when you actually KNOW what kind of player Treadwell is

It depends on what aspect of his judgment is in question. As I see it, the question isn't "is Treadwell going to be a good player?" but rather "Was Treadwell, a WR who needed some time to develop, really the player Spielman should have selected with that pick?"

Side note: I never received an answer regarding Myles Jack either

He's another quality player who was on the board when the pick was made. for that matter, so was Paxton Lynch, who could have given the Vikes a legitimate young "Plan B" behind the rather shaky Teddy Bridgewater and the aging Shaun Hill. Admittedly, that would have been a particularly controversial choice.

Anyway, I didn't say anything more about Jack because I thought HardcoreVikesfan basically covered it. He's not the player I would have selected but he's HardcoreVikesfan's legitimate answer to your question ("WHO do you draft?"). Heck, for that matter so is Paxton Lynch, although considering the way this conversation has gone, I'm reluctant to bring him up.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It depends on what aspect of his judgment is in question. As I see it, the question isn't "is Treadwell going to be a good player?" but rather "Was Treadwell, a WR who needed some time to develop, really the player Spielman should have selected with that pick?"

That remains to be seen

He's another quality player who was on the board when the pick was made. for that matter, so was Paxton Lynch, who could have given the Vikes a legitimate young "Plan B" behind the rather shaky Teddy Bridgewater and the aging Shaun Hill. Admittedly, that would have been a particularly controversial choice.

Anyway, I didn't say anything more about Jack because I thought HardcoreVikesfan basically covered it. He's not the player I would have selected but he's HardcoreVikesfan's legitimate answer to your question ("WHO do you draft?"). Heck, for that matter so is Paxton Lynch, although considering the way this conversation has gone, I'm reluctant to bring him up.

I dont know if I would call Paxton Lynch a "legitimate" option. How about saying Prescott was a legitimate option. Lynch has shown nothing IMO nor was I ever a fan of him coming out of Memphis

I'm not saying Jack isnt good because he's a stud but with Barr and Kendricks here for probably quite a long time, there is really no place for him. We run a lot of nickel. If it was more of a traditional 4-3 defense then yeah. But not with Zims defense.

[Mothman]

I just did a half page analysis in another thread regarding all the OTs in the past 3 draft classes between rounds 1-2. And there were how many that panned out?? 2? 3? Not many I know that. I've been talking about tackles for how long now??? I'm not trying to rationalize anything away as much as you like to believe I am. I havent mentioned guard hardly at all. Could Fusco be replaced? Yeah. But Berger and Boone are set IMO. You're the one bringing up the guards. Not me. Sorry I didnt word it properly which you always seem to catch in a previous post. I've been referring to tackles since we've started this OL mess weeks ago.

It's a free form discussion. Whether you want to discuss them or not, interior linemen have been a part of the Vikings OL discussion this year and going back years and they certainly represent a legitimate response to a question regarding who the Vikes should have drafted.

Nor am I trying to "complain" that I dont receive answers. I just think it's pretty stupid to see we shoulda went OL like OL are just falling from the sky but provide no backing behind it. You gave me primarily guards. And one tackle. Yes one option is an option. But my point is, it was extremely slim pickings. Just like it has been over the last 3 years. There are fans on here (NOT YOU JIM) that dont seem to realize that

I don't think anybody here believes offensive linemen are just falling from the sky and I haven't seen anybody post as if that's the case. In contrast, you repeatedly post as if they're the rarest of animals, almost impossible to find, when the truth is they are available in every draft and in free agency as well. They're out there. Teams are finding them, drafting them and playing them.

[chicagopurple]

O Lines is easier to find then a number of other positions. Right now we are pretty much holding bargain basement players all across our O Line. Saying we would be OK holding on to Fusco, Kalil, Clemmings, is absurd. we need to flush the toilet at OL and rebuild. Even if we just get average NFL talent across our line, it would be an upgrade. none of other offensive trades/drafts will amount to anything until this is done. And if we fail to do so, the choice for QB wont matter, the QB will likely be murdered.

[mosscarter]

waynes played very limited action last year too and didn't he have 2 interceptions including the playoffs? or, was it one? i know he had one against arizona that was called off because of a penalty. my point is treadwell has 1 freaking catch. that is pathetic i don't care how you slice it.

[Pondering Her Percy]

waynes played very limited action last year too and didn't he have 2 interceptions including the playoffs? or, was it one? i know he had one against arizona that was called off because of a penalty. my point is treadwell has 1 freaking catch. that is pathetic i don't care how you slice it.

I really don't even want to bother with this one. Go back and look at the board and how guys were bashing him and saying Spielman screwed up. The pass in the playoffs was tipped right to him. Chris cook who never had an NFL INT could've picked that. And no it's not pathetic when the guys ahead of him are all playing well outside of Johnson.

By the way you're talking, I'm guessing you're on the "he's a bust" train?? What's pathetic is when people try to say that with such a small sample size. Ryan Leaf, Jamarcus Russell, Christian Ponder, etc. Those guys are busts. Had legitimate sample sizes and were awful. Treadwell has not shown that. Period. Simple as that

[Pondering Her Percy]

It's a free form discussion. Whether you want to discuss them or not, interior linemen have been a part of the Vikings OL discussion this year and going back years and they certainly represent a legitimate response to a question regarding who the Vikes should have drafted.
I don't think anybody here believes offensive linemen are just falling from the sky and I haven't seen anybody post as if that's the case. In contrast, you repeatedly post as if they're the rarest of animals, almost impossible to find, when the truth is they are available in every draft and in free agency as well. They're out there. Teams are finding them, drafting them and playing them.

You're completely missing my point behind all this. I'm saying the talent has been very limited over the last 3 years. Especially in the first few rounds. And yeah I get that it's a "free discussion" but I was referring to tackles from the beginning. And you're referring to other spots on the line. I wasn't. Simple as that

[S197]

We could have drafted la'el Collins and it wouldn't have mattered. He would have blown both Achilles by week 3 doing an NFL play 60 commercial.

We need to trade as many picks as it takes to send the goat curse back to the Cubs.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[CbusVikesFan]

Holy smokes. This thread has been hijacked arguing semantics.
The original debate is whether Rick Spielman is doing the Vikings a solid. I cannot help but want Rick to succeed. An Ohio guy who's brother is a huge icon at my most beloved college football team.
For me, it has been hit and miss and more miss than hit. A big time GM move bringing in Bradford. Big time reaches at WR. Pretty much ignoring certain positions and missing the grade with QB's.

[Mothman]

Holy smokes. This thread has been hijacked arguing semantics.

The original debate is whether Rick Spielman is doing the Vikings a solid. I cannot help but want Rick to succeed. An Ohio guy who's brother is a huge icon at my most beloved college football team.
For me, it has been hit and miss and more miss than hit. A big time GM move bringing in Bradford. Big time reaches at WR. Pretty much ignoring certain positions and missing the grade with QB's.

He's had some big swings and some big misses. He's had some hits too but I feel he makes enough mistakes to undermine his own efforts to build a great team.

I want him to succeed too but for me (and I suspect for you), the bottom line is the team just hasn't experienced enough overall success since his arrival.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I've been in similar discussions about past Vikings coaches (particularly Green and Childress) who had experienced some genuine success but who I believed just didn't have "the right stuff" to take the team all the way. It's never a popular position.

I think one of the main reasons we Vikings fans often find ourselves in debates about whether a coach should stay or go (or in this case, whether the GM should stay or go) is because the team never settles the matter. They've been mired in mediocrity far too long and consequently, it's easy to see the glass half full or half empty and debate about it. During this young century, when the Vikes rise, they don't seem to stay up for long. They certainly haven't done what teams like the Patriots, Steelers or more recently, the Seahawks have done and clearly established themselves as a top team over an extended period of time. If they would clearly establish themselves as a genuine contender and actually stay in that position for a while I imagine we'd finally get to have some very different conversations. It's hard to imagine that happening under Spielman, all the more so since he's bungled the offensive line and used so many top draft picks in an effort to find a starting QB. The latter is more reminiscent of a franchise like Cleveland than of a team on it's way toward winning a Super Bowl any time soon.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Holy smokes. This thread has been hijacked arguing semantics.
The original debate is whether Rick Spielman is doing the Vikings a solid. I cannot help but want Rick to succeed. An Ohio guy who's brother is a huge icon at my most beloved college football team.
For me, it has been hit and miss and more miss than hit. A big time GM move bringing in Bradford. Big time reaches at WR. Pretty much ignoring certain positions and missing the grade with QB's.

Patterson was a big time reach. However, I don't consider Treadwell that. He was a projected first rounder all along