Vikings Message Board.Com

Texas Vike wrote: I'm with losperros on this one. Allen just doesn't convince me... I promise to watch those vids you posted when I get a chance, Moth. Woods, OTOH, seems like a good pick. I am just not sure where they'd take him: 25 seems too high, 52 (?), 2nd rounder, seems too low.

He may go somewhere in between in which case, it's tough luck, Vikes!

Regarding Allen... I'm not really trying to convince anybody of anything, just trying to get a handle on what kind of receiver I think he is since he seems to be a somewhat polarizing figure. At this point, I don't see him as a really explosive, big play threat (although he made some big plays in college) but I do like him as a skilled receiver with the potential to be a very productive starter and perhaps more (if the comparisons to Boldin prove true and he were to reach that exceptional level). Maybe that opinion will change if I find more video on him. I think a lot depends on what the Vikings want and what all of us want them to add. Personally, I think adding Allen to the offense and then drafting Aaron Dobson later might give the Vikes a nice, young one-two punch on the outside for years to come and with Jennings, Simpson and Wright on the roster, the Vikings would have a good, diverse mix of skills and talent at WR. That's obviously just one of many ways they could go and honestly, I'd be fine with them skipping WR altogether in the first round if they think there's better value elsewhere.

I seem to be out of sync with the board when it comes to this draft! I get the feeling if the Vikes drafted Allen and Te'o, I'd be happy and most of the board would be upset. The draft evaluators seem to like those two players and they're both expected to go in the latter third of the first round but they don't appear to be very popular in these parts.

Speaking of Dobson, I really like his potential:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H372GPj4WA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhUAgSqy-U

Texas Vike wrote:I've been calling for Boyce for some time now. I watched a good number of Horned Frogs games and I think this kid is a total sleeper. Really solid frame, big imposing body, fights for the ball and is surprisingly fast for his size. He's explosive when he gets the ball.

He'd be an excellent 4th round pick if he lasts that long. And yes, TCU's QB went into rehab early in the season, which put a huge damper on Boyce's numbers.

I like Boyce's game too. He could definitely be a good value in the mid-rounds of the draft.

Mothman wrote:Speaking of Dobson, I really like his potential:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H372GPj4WA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhUAgSqy-U

So do I. He doesn't seem to play very fast, but he ran a 4.42 and 4.44 forty at his pro day. That's plenty fast for a guy that goes 6'3/210. If Dobson would have run those times at the Combine, he would have been sixth-fastest among those who ran in Indianapolis. As you saw from the videos, the guy has some serious hands. 0 drops in 92 targets according to STATS Inc. Expected to go on day three but Kiper (FWIW) at one point said he could go late first or second. I like his apparent physicality.

S197 wrote:He doesn't get a lot of separation but one of his biggest strengths is catching the ball in traffic. He's very much Brandon Marshall-like in that sense.

No, he doesn't, except maybe in draft bios and highlight reels. But in full games? Allen doesn't get separation and he has problems breaking away from a crowd.

dead_poet wrote: So do I. He doesn't seem to play very fast, but he ran a 4.42 and 4.44 forty at his pro day. That's plenty fast for a guy that goes 6'3/210. If Dobson would have run those times at the Combine, he would have been sixth-fastest among those who ran in Indianapolis. As you saw from the videos, the guy has some serious hands. 0 drops in 92 targets according to STATS Inc. Expected to go on day three but Kiper (FWIW) at one point said he could go late first or second. I like his apparent physicality.

I like pretty much everything about his game. He'll have to make the transition from a smaller program to the NFL and sometimes that's tricky but I'd love to see Dobson end up playing for the Vikings.

Mothman wrote:I have to say, Craig, that the more I watch him, the more I think that might be Allen... at least when it comes to getting separation and running crisp routes. There are faster WRs in this draft who can stretch the field better but overall, Allen looks quite good to me. He's not perfect, but I like his game. I haven't seen as much of him as you have so I may be wrong about him but I've been digging around, trying to watch more than just highlight videos, and I've found collections of plays from his performances against Ohio State, USC, UCLA and Washington State. when i consider them along with what I've seen in the highlight videos, I'm impressed by his skills and athleticism.

For those who want to watch: Ohio State and USC:
UCLA and Washington State:

Whoa, slow down there, Jim! You're highlighting a game where Allen averaged his typical 8 yards per catch and was kept out of the end zone? You do realize that Ohio State won, right? Cal made a nice comeback attempt late in the game but that was completely because of RB Brendan Bigelow. Allen all but disappeared.

I'll give you the UCLA game. This might have been Cal's best game. Allen didn't have much yardage but he caught a couple TDs.

But Washington State? The same team that was ranked something like 101st in the nation at allowing points? They were a 3-9 team, for crying out loud! That's my point. Put Allen up against bad Ds and he looks okay, but against the better teams and they shut him down when they need to, especially in keeping him out of the end zone (which is not good for someone who gets such spectacular separation and can catch like nobody's business in a crowd). How about Allen's 43 whopping receiving yards against Stanford? Why not highlight that? Or are we just going to forget the games like that?

Also, for what it's worth, here's former scout and current NFL.com analyst Bucky Brooks' take on Allen:

Wow!!! Well, now that the Big Bucko likes him, I'll just completely forget everything I've seen from Allen and call him a future NFL stud! After all, you just can't beat those draft bios and highlight reels when it comes to evaluating talent. They've never been wrong before.

Seriously, you might be right about Allen and he's all that. But as I see it, I wouldn't call him a R1 pick. But then, I'm not seeing really any of the WRs as being R1 picks in the upcoming draft.

losperros wrote:Whoa, slow down there, Jim! You're highlighting a game where Allen averaged his typical 8 yards per catch and was kept out of the end zone? You do realize that Ohio State won, right? Cal made a nice comeback attempt late in the game but that was completely because of RB Brendan Bigelow. Allen all but disappeared.

I'm not highlighting it in the sense of singling it out as a terrific performance or anything. It's just one of the games I was able to find where I could watch more than just highlight reel catches by Allen. I wouldn't hold it up as an exemplary performance.

I'll give you the UCLA game. This might have been Cal's best game. Allen didn't have much yardage but he caught a couple TDs.

But Washington State? The same team that was ranked something like 101st in the nation at allowing points? They were a 3-9 team, for crying out loud! That's my point. Put Allen up against bad Ds and he looks okay, but against the better teams and they shut him down when they need to, especially in keeping him out of the end zone (which is not good for someone who gets such spectacular separation and can catch like nobody's business in a crowd). How about Allen's 43 whopping receiving yards against Stanford? Why not highlight that? Or are we just going to forget the games like that?

Again, I'm not highlighting these games. Those are just the 2 videos (and 4 games) I found that showed more of Allen than what we see on highlight reels. If I can find video of Allen's performance against Stanford (or anybody else) I'll be happy to post that too because my goal here is to learn more about the guy and reconcile the criticism with the praise. I thought there was value in watching those videos because they showed plays that worked and plays that didn't work. I realize he had a lot of shorter catches against Ohio State but I see value in that too, especially against a good defense. To me, a receiver who can catch 9 passes for 80 yards against Ohio State or 9 for 93 against USC is better than a receiver who isn't even getting open enough to help move the chains. does that make him worthy of a first round pick? No, not on it's own. It's just more info to consider.

I'm not suggesting games like Allen's 43 receiving yards against Stanford should be ignored or forgotten but every receiver has down games and none of these guys are playing on an island. Justin Hunter had several sub-50 yard performances last season and we can find low yardage performances on the resumés of all of the top receiving prospects. The much-touted Patterson had 31 yards or less receiving in 5 straight games last year. Hopkins had a 1 catch, 43 yard performance against South Carolina last year. It was a TD but it was the only yardage he gained all day. even offensive machine Tavon Austin was held to 6 catches for 34 yards against Kansas State.

Wow!!! Well, now that the Big Bucko likes him, I'll just completely forget everything I've seen from Allen and call him a future NFL stud! After all, you just can't beat those draft bios and highlight reels when it comes to evaluating talent. They've never been wrong before.

LOL! I did say "for what it's worth".

Seriously, you might be right about Allen and he's all that. But as I see it, I wouldn't call him a R1 pick. But then, I'm not seeing really any of the WRs as being R1 picks in the upcoming draft.

I have a similar outlook, although once you get to the 25th pick in the first round, I'm not sure how to really determine what would differentiate a high second round pick from a low first round pick. At that point, I think the biggest difference may be in who is available. In other words, is there a player available at #25 that might have been worth selecting at #16? If so, I think it's wise to grab that guy and leave the late first/early second round pick to someone else.

By the way, Allen had a sub-par performance against Stanford in 2012 but I did a search for "Keenan Allen vs. Stanford" and found this video of his performance against them in 2011:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwyfBIXsBtw

Mothman wrote:I'm not suggesting games like Allen's 43 receiving yards against Stanford should be ignored or forgotten but every receiver has down games and none of these guys are playing on an island. Justin Hunter had several sub-50 yard performances last season and we can find low yardage performances on the resumés of all of the top receiving prospects. The much-touted Patterson had 31 yards or less receiving in 5 straight games last year. Hopkins had a 1 catch, 43 yard performance against South Carolina last year. It was a TD but it was the only yardage he gained all day. even offensive machine Tavon Austin was held to 6 catches for 34 yards against Kansas State.

I understand what you're saying about all these guys. Two things:

1) I wouldn't take any of them in R1, though I won't complain if the Vikings do (even Allen), *IF* they believe that the player really is the BPA at the time (which I probably won't agree with, but they have a lot more firsthand info than I do on the WRs). If it costs us a R1 shot at one of the best MLBs, I will be upset.

2) One of the things that bugs me the most about Allen is the fantastical hype he's been getting despite being a receiver that can't do things that some of the above WRs you mentioned can do. I know Allen has some impressive skills, at least that's what is being pounded into us fans, but from what I've seen he's simply not a proof positive draft pick or even the "safest" WR pick, as some are saying. Not in my view, anyway. Admittedly, my view doesn't count for much.

Mothman wrote:I have a similar outlook, although once you get to the 25th pick in the first round, I'm not sure how to really determine what would differentiate a high second round pick from a low first round pick. At that point, I think the biggest difference may be in who is available. In other words, is there a player available at #25 that might have been worth selecting at #16? If so, I think it's wise to grab that guy and leave the late first/early second round pick to someone else.

By the way, Allen had a sub-par performance against Stanford in 2012 but I did a search for "Keenan Allen vs. Stanford" and found this video of his performance against them in 2011:

I understand what you're saying about the 25th pick and a high R2 pick, and I agree.

As for the 2011 game against Stanford, you're right, Allen looks good. I didn't see that one, so I can't comment.

Still, not any the highlight reels or draft bios have convinced me that I didn't see what I know I saw of Allen last season. To me Allen is a young version of Michael Jenkins (who was a R1 pick at one time with a lot of hype, highlight reels, and great draft bios). If that's what the Vikings need from a rookie WR, then I guess I'm not seeing that either.

losperros wrote:I understand what you're saying about all these guys. Two things:

1) I wouldn't take any of them in R1, though I won't complain if the Vikings do (even Allen), *IF* they believe that the player really is the BPA at the time (which I probably won't agree with, but they have a lot more firsthand info than I do on the WRs). If it costs us a R1 shot at one of the best MLBs, I will be upset.

That would bother me too because given the nature of this draft, I think drafting one of the best MLBs would make more sense.

2) One of the things that bugs me the most about Allen is the fantastical hype he's been getting despite being a receiver that can't do things that some of the above WRs you mentioned can do. I know Allen has some impressive skills, at least that's what is being pounded into us fans, but from what I've seen he's simply not a proof positive draft pick or even the "safest" WR pick, as some are saying. Not in my view, anyway. Admittedly, my view doesn't count for much.

It counts as much as mine, although that probably doesn't make you feel any better, eh?

I could be way off base here but I think one of the reasons Allen might be viewed as a safer pick is because the analysts/experts think his "floor" is higher than other candidates. In other words, they may see him as skilled enough that even if he doesn't become a #1 receiver for some team, he isn't likely to be a complete bust either. That's just a theory but it would explain a few things. I found Mike Mayock's comments about Patterson and Allen interesting and (hopefully) they help illustrate the point I was just trying to make:

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2013/2/19/ ... s-safeties

There are exactly two receivers fit for first-round picks, in Mayock's eyes: Cordarrelle Patterson and Keenan Allen. Mayock has them in that order as well. Patterson, according to Mayock, is probably not available at No. 16, which puts Allen in play for the Rams at No. 22.

Patterson comes with a question mark, in spite of his incredible talent. Here's Mayock, when asked about projecting him as the 12th pick:

It's certainly not a stretch from a talent perspective. From a height, width, speed, talent perspective, he might be one of the most talented physical specimens in this class. I think he's taking your breath away from the ability to make plays especially after he gets the ball in his hands. He's a special talent.

The problem is he's got one year of Division 1 experience after two years at a [junior college]. That's a red flag for me, especially at the wide receiver position. There are a bunch of those guys that have failed over the past 20 years.

So you've got to do your homework on him off the field, work ethic, all those kinds of things, because talent wise, he fits.

Allen is a player who could divide teams and analysts.

Keenan Allen, I think, is a later first round pick. And the Dolphins need a wide receiver, but they also need a vertical threat, and I don't think he's a 4.4 [40-yard dash] guy. We'll find out this weekend. Here's the deal with Keenan Allen: if you like him on tape, he's Anquan Boldin. If you don't like him, he's speed deficient.

As for the 2011 game against Stanford, you're right, Allen looks good. I didn't see that one, so I can't comment.

I'll keep looking for more game footage of him and I intend to look for game footage of some of the other WRs too. I think it's more informative than highlight compilations that just show positives.

I am a little worried about Keenan Allen knee injury. He still has not run full speed at any scouting workout, nothing at the combine, nothing at his CAL pro day. I don't know, Keenan Allen may drop all the way to the 3rd round. He for sure won't be ready for rookie training camp in April. I am convinced that the class of 2012 did so well is because they all participated in every early season workout. Allen won't be able to do that.

I wouldn't be comfortable with the Vikings drafting Allen in the first round.

petev_sj wrote:I am a little worried about Keenan Allen knee injury. He still has not run full speed at any scouting workout, nothing at the combine, nothing at his CAL pro day.

He's scheduled to work out next week, on April 9th, and at this point there have been no indications that his workout will be postponed.

I don't know, Keenan Allen may drop all the way to the 3rd round. He for sure won't be ready for rookie training camp in April.

The draft is the last weekend in April so rookies won't be in mini-camp until sometime in May and again, there are no indications that Allen won't be ready or even that he's not healthy now. Something would have to go very wrong for him to drop into the third round.

Aaron Dobson - WR - Player

According to CBS Sports draft analyst Dane Brugler, NFL scouts' opinions are "all over the board" on Marshall WR Aaron Dobson.

Dobson's range is considered anywhere from the first to the fourth round. Brugler suspects his likely draft position is somewhere in between. At 6-foot-3, 210 with 40 times in the 4.4s, Dobson is an intriguing size/speed prospect. According to STATS ICE, Dobson didn't drop a single pass last season, although he had a tendency to disappear in games.
Source: Dane Brugler on Twitter

dead_poet wrote:Aaron Dobson - WR - Player

According to CBS Sports draft analyst Dane Brugler, NFL scouts' opinions are "all over the board" on Marshall WR Aaron Dobson.

Dobson's range is considered anywhere from the first to the fourth round. Brugler suspects his likely draft position is somewhere in between. At 6-foot-3, 210 with 40 times in the 4.4s, Dobson is an intriguing size/speed prospect. According to STATS ICE, Dobson didn't drop a single pass last season, although he had a tendency to disappear in games.
Source: Dane Brugler on Twitter

If say we go defense with our first two picks (idk maybe MLB and DT/DE) and he's there with our 2nd, go for it unless Woods is still around

When "catching the ball" is one of your negatives...I think I'd have to think long and hard.

Weaknesses
Consistently a body catcher, even when it is not necessary. Was not frequently asked to go up and get the football at its highest point. Large number of his snaps start while off the line of scrimmage, allows for a better release. Doesn't use his hands enough against a jam, tries to dip or side step rather than slap or push. Tends to throttle down in his breaks.Burst after the catch or return is only adequate but does accelerate quickly. Tries to do too much when the ball is in his hands at times. Dropped a few very catchable balls, including easy bucket throw over shoulder. Inconsistent blocking effort.

Sound like any other first round receiver we drafted in the past?
Very similar size as well.

Too many questions! Pass on Patterson!

Demi wrote:When "catching the ball" is one of your negatives...I think I'd have to think long and hard.
Sound like any other first round receiver we drafted in the past?
Very similar size as well.

Too many questions! Pass on Patterson!

If you're trying to make the Comparison between Patterson and Williamson, I'd say you need to rewatch the kid. Patterson will be a far better talent then Williamson ever was.


and ftr "catching" is a problem with a lot of the kids mentioned in the top of the draft. None of them that I have seen compare to Williamson's inability to catch.