Vikings Message Board.Com

fiestavike wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:00 pm Some of these stat breakdowns really miss the mark. Its become boring to talk football over the last couple decades with so much of this kind of 'analysis'.

I know they're not flawless stats, but of all the single QB stats I think YPA is the best one. For RBs I think YPC is probably the single best one for RBs. Volume needs to be factored in of course. TDs etc...

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:38 pm The Vikings have a weight problem, and some fans want to pretend big is beautiful.

OK, so what's the solution this upcoming season then?

Let's say the Vikings have the talent on defense, offense and special teams to be a legit Superbowl contender.

Let's say everyone here agrees that Cousins nixes that chance because he just can't get it done when it really matters.

So what do they do?

Even if they wanted to lose the weight, there is no way to lose it because what is the alternative at this point?

I'm not saying I agree with you, but even if I did, the horse is out of the barn already. The Vikings are going forward with Cousins at QB and even if they wanted to change that trajectory, at best we're talking about next season and not this one.

Should we just go into this season consigned to defeat?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:25 am You literally blamed everyone else but Kirk. Not actually saying Kirk is not blameless isn't necessary when you are constantly blaming everyone else but Kirk.

I offered examples of where Cousins wasn't at fault.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:25 am So not only are you trying to win a SB with a QB who isn't good enough to compete with the typical SB winning QB, but you are trying to win it all with QB who struggles more than most against the type of teams you have to beat in the playoffs. Even Joe Flacco and Nick Foles needed to get hot and play well in the playoffs to win it all, and Cousins has shown he is incapable of that.

Has he?

You think Cousins had the supporting cast that Foles and Flacco had when they went to and won Superbowls? What year with the Vikings did he have a team around him that was remotely as good as what those two had?

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:24 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:25 am You literally blamed everyone else but Kirk. Not actually saying Kirk is not blameless isn't necessary when you are constantly blaming everyone else but Kirk.

I offered examples of where Cousins wasn't at fault.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:25 am So not only are you trying to win a SB with a QB who isn't good enough to compete with the typical SB winning QB, but you are trying to win it all with QB who struggles more than most against the type of teams you have to beat in the playoffs. Even Joe Flacco and Nick Foles needed to get hot and play well in the playoffs to win it all, and Cousins has shown he is incapable of that.

Has he?

You think Cousins had the supporting cast that Foles and Flacco had when they went to and won Superbowls? What year with the Vikings did he have a team around him that was remotely as good as what those two had?

In what possible world has Cousins proven he's incapable of getting hot. Where does Stump come up with this stuff?

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:11 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:24 pm

I offered examples of where Cousins wasn't at fault.



Has he?

You think Cousins had the supporting cast that Foles and Flacco had when they went to and won Superbowls? What year with the Vikings did he have a team around him that was remotely as good as what those two had?

In what possible world has Cousins proven he's incapable of getting hot. Where does Stump come up with this stuff?

Cousins is perfectly capable of getting hot...against lousy defenses. He is not capable of doing it against defenses he will face in the playoffs, something I am basing on factual numbers. He is 0-11 against top pass defenses as a Viking and the offense has scored 15 points on average when he has been the QB in those games. If the Vikings win multiple games in a row in the playoffs it will be because the defense does a great job and holding off the other team's offense. Not because of Cousins.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:24 pm I offered examples of where Cousins wasn't at fault.

You offered an excuse for why he wasn't completely at fault, ignoring the other 3 chances he had to get a first down, including a play where the defender fell down covering Thielen. The numbers speak for themselves. In spots where the team needs Cousins to score to win it, he doesn't the vast majority of times.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:24 pm Has he?

You think Cousins had the supporting cast that Foles and Flacco had when they went to and won Superbowls? What year with the Vikings did he have a team around him that was remotely as good as what those two had?

I think you have been misinformed on how good Flacco's SB team was.
Rushing rank: 11th
Receiver grade rank: 3rd
Oline Pass Blocking Grade: 18th
Defensive DVOA: 19th


Vikings 2020 team:
Rushing rank: 5th
Receiver grade rank: 1st
Oline PB Grade: 18th
Defensive DVOA: 18th

Hmmm...

Foles on the other hand had nearly a top 5 team in every aspect save QB. He also caught NE and MN completely off guard and unprepared to stop him. I guess you could try to emulate that success that only 1 team in the past 15 seasons has had, but if you are going to try to put a team around a QB that makes it nearly impossible for the QB to fail, the first step would be to ditch the overpaid QB that makes it next to impossible to field that kind of team.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:18 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:38 pm The Vikings have a weight problem, and some fans want to pretend big is beautiful.

OK, so what's the solution this upcoming season then?

Let's say the Vikings have the talent on defense, offense and special teams to be a legit Superbowl contender.

Let's say everyone here agrees that Cousins nixes that chance because he just can't get it done when it really matters.

So what do they do?

Even if they wanted to lose the weight, there is no way to lose it because what is the alternative at this point?

I'm not saying I agree with you, but even if I did, the horse is out of the barn already. The Vikings are going forward with Cousins at QB and even if they wanted to change that trajectory, at best we're talking about next season and not this one.

Should we just go into this season consigned to defeat?

This is where we are. Let's get the discussion back on track. How can the Vikings win a super bowl this season is the only interesting question.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:19 am I think you have been misinformed on how good Flacco's SB team was.
Rushing rank: 11th
Receiver grade rank: 3rd
Oline Pass Blocking Grade: 18th
Defensive DVOA: 19th


Vikings 2020 team:
Rushing rank: 5th
Receiver grade rank: 1st
Oline PB Grade: 18th
Defensive DVOA: 18th

Hmmm...

Let's say I was misinformed then on how good Flacco's Superbowl winning team was then. It was just as good as the one Cousins was surrounded by last year.

So what explains how that team went to and won a Superbowl?

If we agree that Flacco = Cousins, and the rest is equal as well, what then enabled the Flacco-led team to excel and win a Superbowl if it wasn't Flacco himself?

Or are you claiming that Flacco was "clutch" and that enabled it?

If Flacco was so "clutch" over his career, why didn't he have more success?

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:29 pm This is where we are. Let's get the discussion back on track. How can the Vikings win a super bowl this season is the only interesting question.

Right. I don't know the answer to that question, but I know what the answer to it isn't, and that's assuming the outcome of the season is already determined by the presence of one player before the season has even started.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:00 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:19 am I think you have been misinformed on how good Flacco's SB team was.
Rushing rank: 11th
Receiver grade rank: 3rd
Oline Pass Blocking Grade: 18th
Defensive DVOA: 19th


Vikings 2020 team:
Rushing rank: 5th
Receiver grade rank: 1st
Oline PB Grade: 18th
Defensive DVOA: 18th

Hmmm...

Let's say I was misinformed then on how good Flacco's Superbowl winning team was then. It was just as good as the one Cousins was surrounded by last year.

So what explains how that team went to and won a Superbowl?

If we agree that Flacco = Cousins, and the rest is equal as well, what then enabled the Flacco-led team to excel and win a Superbowl if it wasn't Flacco himself?

Or are you claiming that Flacco was "clutch" and that enabled it?

If Flacco was so "clutch" over his career, why didn't he have more success?

Wasn't that the Baltimore team that was considered one of the great Ds of all time and had the superstar RB. Stump is cherry picking stats. He conveniently leaves out any good stats for Cousins and bad stats for our D. He must have looked long and hard to try to find something negative about the Baltimore D. A lie is the intent to deceive. Cherry picking stats is an intent to deceive. Why even debate if you're not going to debate in good faith. You think our Receivers ranked #1 despite Cousins sucking? Or did Cousins just maybe have something to do with how productive our offense was?

EDIT: I was mixing up this team with the 2001 Baltimore team and Jamal Lewis. I remember that team. I don't really remember the 2013 Ravens much.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:44 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:00 pm

Let's say I was misinformed then on how good Flacco's Superbowl winning team was then. It was just as good as the one Cousins was surrounded by last year.

So what explains how that team went to and won a Superbowl?

If we agree that Flacco = Cousins, and the rest is equal as well, what then enabled the Flacco-led team to excel and win a Superbowl if it wasn't Flacco himself?

Or are you claiming that Flacco was "clutch" and that enabled it?

If Flacco was so "clutch" over his career, why didn't he have more success?

Wasn't that the Baltimore team that was considered one of the great Ds of all time and had the superstar RB. Stump is cherry picking stats. He conveniently leaves out any good stats for Cousins and bad stats for our D. He must have looked long and hard to try to find something negative about the Baltimore D. A lie is the intent to deceive. Cherry picking stats is an intent to deceive. Why even debate if you're not going to debate in good faith. You think our Receivers ranked #1 despite Cousins sucking? Or did Cousins just maybe have something to do with how productive our offense was?

Lol what? Think you got the wrong Baltimore team.

What stats did I cherry pick? Which matter more than the how good the run game was, WR were, how good the Oline pass blocked, or the overall defensive rank?

That Baltimore team was better than the 2020 Vikings or they don't win the SB but it wasn't THAT much better. That should give you hope right?

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:02 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:29 pm This is where we are. Let's get the discussion back on track. How can the Vikings win a super bowl this season is the only interesting question.

Right. I don't know the answer to that question, but I know what the answer to it isn't, and that's assuming the outcome of the season is already determined by the presence of one player before the season has even started.

There are multiple teams that are probably a QB away from competing for the SB. The Vikings are one of those teams.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:00 pm
Let's say I was misinformed then on how good Flacco's Superbowl winning team was then. It was just as good as the one Cousins was surrounded by last year.

So what explains how that team went to and won a Superbowl?

I have already gone over this. It took the single greatest 4 game playoff performance of any QB in the past 15 years for them to win it all.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:00 pm If we agree that Flacco = Cousins, and the rest is equal as well, what then enabled the Flacco-led team to excel and win a Superbowl if it wasn't Flacco himself?

Flacco and Cousins aren't equals. They are different QBs with different strengths and weaknesses. Cousins strengths are playing consistently better against bad defenses than any other QB in the NFL. Flacco's strengths were playing really well in a single playoff and being the biggest part of his team winning the SB.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:00 pm Or are you claiming that Flacco was "clutch" and that enabled it?

Not clutch as much as just playing at an elite level for a short period of time. He did what Foles did in 2 games for 4 games on an inferior team. He is the exception that proves the rule and everything about his team winning the SB is wrong.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:00 pm If Flacco was so "clutch" over his career, why didn't he have more success?

He stopped putting in the effort requisite of a great QB, had injury problems, the league figured him out or possibly a combination of all 3. All I know is that for 4 Sundays Flacco caught lightning in a bottle.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:29 pm

This is where we are. Let's get the discussion back on track. How can the Vikings win a super bowl this season is the only interesting question.

The numbers tell us that the key to winning it all are a top 8 scoring defense, top 8 scoring offense, top 5 QB, top 8 receivers and a good pass rush.

That is the average SB winning team.

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:48 am Ok the OL and defense don't matter? Tell that to Brady see what he says. He's a stick in the mud QB. Jim McMahon is a winner and took the 85 Bears to the Super Bowl. It had nothing to do with one of the most dominating defenses that ever stepped on an NFL filed. Had nothing to do with Walter sweetness Payton running through defenses. Of course Jim Mc was involved with 100 % of the snaps when he did play. It's hard handing the ball off. Shows what a D and OL can do right there. Defense is a big part of making the Super Bowl:
But there is one statistic common to every champion since 2013 – a stinginess on defense. All ranked in the Top 10 in scoring defense. They did not allow points. That’s been the one statistic universal to the success of all Super Bowl champions – 47 of the 54 winners ranked in the Top 10 in scoring defense. Of the 108 teams that have reached the Super Bowl, 89 of them ranked in the Top 10 in scoring defense.
The above shows defense matters. With our D last year no QB that ever played the game was taking that hunk of junk anywhere.

First, this is farthest from the truth. Brady is one of the best at moving inside the pocket and buying time. He's a wizard. He's also decisive and quick at getting the ball out. Two attributes that could help an average line.


I think we're missing the point here. My question was, if this stacked championship team barely makes it above .500, will the Cousins believers still want to pay $45M for a QB that cannot elevate his team? Or will they want to keep Cousins until Zimmer builds the 85 Bears D?