Sam Bradford's a Viking

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dkoby
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

Post by dkoby »

]
dkoby wrote: it's the best short term move perhaps... But if it doesn't work out?
:puke:
What if AD goes down on the first play? What if Kalil goes down on the next play?
They made a calculated move. Agree with it or not, they did something bold. At least they did something.
Every other team in the league has QB depth issues. Number one goes down and the chances of winning go down.
You can't fortell the future.
What if Bradford lights it up? What if, what if, what if?
I watched some highlight of bradfords from last year, he's much more mobile than I thought.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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vikesfan52 wrote:Hands down a great deal. Bradford makes us a contender again and I think he will be better than Bridgewater on this team. I like Bridgewater but I feel like Bradford is a better fit. Bradford is accurate enough to throw deep and has never been on a team like the vikings. We were a great team last year and Teddy only put up 14 tds and 9 picks. I want to see how Bradford does with the best running back in the league and one of the best defenses. Yes, it is a first round pick but it's not going to kill us. That first rounder could be a Cordarelle Patterson type player or an Anthony Barr. You never know what you are going to get but with Bradford you do. He is an average NFL quarterback. Good luck finding one without giving up a first rounder. Also, for the ones who can't stand this trade. Did you really want to go all year getting killed watching Shaun Hill at quarterback in a new stadium? If so go watch the rams game from last year when Hill came in. Maybe that will change your mind.
Average is optimistic when he has a full offseason to build chemistry with the players and learn the playbook. But without a full offseason we do not know. There's also the age and contract and salary cap implications which a rookie costs next to nothing given the new CBA and hence ar much more valuable. Patterson is a great kick returner and one of the top 10 talents in the open space who as a gadget player in Musgrave's offense in extremely limited time got 9 TDs his rookie yea but was extremely raw and didn't fit a traditional Norv Turner offense... It's not a bust, but it's not a home run.

The move makes sense because of Pat Shurmer and that Bradford has probably more experience than any NFL QB at learning a new playbook given the amount of offensive coordinators he's gone through.

But you are giving up
1)A 1st rounder that probably would be 12 spots higher if we didn't make the trade. It could have even been an extremely early pick in 2017 that we could trade down a few spots for future picks with a bad team that will give us 2018 and 2019 picks that could pay dividends for years and years if we traded Shaun Hill to Dallas and just planned on rebuilding for a year (obviously probably off the table due to ownership and timing of a new stadium).
2)A 2nd to 4th rounder in 2018.
3)Cap room that may cost us Xavier Rhodes and/or a LT and/or RT in free agency next year and/or cause us to backload contracts and ends up costing us a 2015 or 2016 draft pick from signing his 2nd year contract.
4)a 1st and 2nd and possibly 3rd rounde in 2018 after Teddy comes back mid year in 2017 and we aren't sure if he'll be the same so we have to trade up and get another QB since we only have Teddy in 2018 on his 5th year option.
5)Etc

I hope it works out, this is quite the gamble!
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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MrPurplenGold wrote:The vikings acquired a player the Eagles thought so highly of that they traded up to get a rookie QB to replace him. They also only gave him a 2 year deal which means they weren't even sure that he could be a franchise QB. Show me a successful QB that has moved around as much as Bradford has, I doubt there are any.
Kurt Warner and Brett Favre both played for 3 different teams. They didn't do too badly. :)

Brad Johnson won a Super Bowl with his third NFL team.

It's September 3rd. Did you expect them to find a starting caliber QB without baggage 8 days before their first game of the season.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

Post by mike2mike »

dkoby wrote:
What if AD goes down on the first play? What if Kalil goes down on the next play?
They made a calculated move. Agree with it or not, they did something bold. At least they did something.
Every other team in the league has QB depth issues. Number one goes down and the chances of winning go down.
You can't fortell the future.
What if Bradford lights it up? What if, what if, what if?
I watched some highlight of bradfords from last year, he's much more mobile than I thought.
Exactly why given uncertainty, you should add value and favor likely improving the value of the team over many years over just a few in the present, and look at things that are certain...
1)The older player gets, the less likely he is to be able to add value. (You should generally prefer the same talent at a younger age with greater number of years on his contract).
2)Draft picks maintain value as priced in by other draft picks whereby earlie draft picks are perceived to be better, and if you disagree you can either trade for more draft picks later, and/or higher draft picks and/or more draft picks in additional years. Also, by the method of measuring draft pick value, you can get around a 50% ROI off of giving up draft picks this year for draft picks a round rarer next year, or draft picks next year for a round earlier the year following. (You should tend to save draft picks for the future, and reserve picks for player trades for all in moves that give you a substantial Super Bowl chance that would not be available in the next few years if you didn't make it)
3)More salary cap is preferable to less. (You shouldn't trade for players that cost you $7M this year, and should prefer to restructure player deals to free up room the following year)
4)Given the expected trajectory of many of the players, it will be very expensive to keep this team together, and without the additional 17M in cap room next year due to Bradford, we really just can't do it. That means rebuilding in the future..
The one thing we can agree upon is we can accept the cost of rebuilding if Bradford brings us a Super Bowl or if in 2017 season the combination of Bradford/Bridgewater get a Super Bowl played in our hometown.
5)Players that only have a week to prepare for one single game tend not to look as good as they did previously, no matter how talented they were when they came into the league (Remember Josh Freeman?)

I'm optimistic about a few things of this trade.
1)That Pat Shurmer will be able to script some plays that both our team and Bradford are comfortable with
2)That Bradford is a fast learner
3)That given one week before the Eagles prepared to enter the season with Bradford as a starter, the cost for every QB was likely insane, and so that given this information the cost to trade was not so bad as it could have been.. (Although I think we should not have made it because it's more likely to be a lose/lose this late in the process).
Last edited by mike2mike on Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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MWNANCe wrote:The 4th can become a second if he does well
A 2nd if they win the super bowl, a 3rd if they make it to the conference title game.
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Mothman
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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mike2mike wrote: Average is optimistic when he has a full offseason to build chemistry with the players and learn the playbook. But without a full offseason we do not know. There's also the age and contract and salary cap implications which a rookie costs next to nothing given the new CBA and hence ar much more valuable. Patterson is a great kick returner and one of the top 10 talents in the open space who as a gadget player in Musgrave's offense in extremely limited time got 9 TDs his rookie yea but was extremely raw and didn't fit a traditional Norv Turner offense... It's not a bust, but it's not a home run.

The move makes sense because of Pat Shurmer and that Bradford has probably more experience than any NFL QB at learning a new playbook given the amount of offensive coordinators he's gone through.

But you are giving up
1)A 1st rounder that probably would be 12 spots higher if we didn't make the trade. It could have even been an extremely early pick in 2017 that we could trade down a few spots for future picks with a bad team that will give us 2018 and 2019 picks that could pay dividends for years and years if we traded Shaun Hill to Dallas and just planned on rebuilding for a year (obviously probably off the table due to ownership and timing of a new stadium).
2)A 2nd to 4th rounder in 2018.
3)Cap room that may cost us Xavier Rhodes and/or a LT and/or RT in free agency next year and/or cause us to backload contracts and ends up costing us a 2015 or 2016 draft pick from signing his 2nd year contract.
4)a 1st and 2nd and possibly 3rd rounde in 2018 after Teddy comes back mid year in 2017 and we aren't sure if he'll be the same so we have to trade up and get another QB since we only have Teddy in 2018 on his 5th year option.
That last point is off the table if Bradford plays well because they can then simply re-sign him. It's also possible that Bridgewater, even if healthy, wouldn't have played well enough to merit the job beyond 2017 and the Vikes would have needed to draft another QB anyway. Including 2018 picks as a cost of this trade is highly speculative.

The cap issues should be manageable. All they are really giving up here are the picks involved in the trade.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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How long will it take for him to actually be able to play? How long does he need to learn the playbook? How long before he had 100% competency?
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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720pete wrote:How long will it take for him to actually be able to play? How long does he need to learn the playbook? How long before he had 100% competency?
The latter will take a while, perhaps even until next season since he will have to pick up the system on the fly.

The answer to your first question is up to Zimmer. How long it takes to learn the playbook is anybody's guess.

It's going to be a process. There's just no way to avoid that.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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Mothman wrote: Kurt Warner and Brett Favre both played for 3 different teams. They didn't do too badly. :)

Brad Johnson won a Super Bowl with his third NFL team.

It's September 3rd. Did you expect them to find a starting caliber QB without baggage 8 days before their first game of the season.
Agree, agree, and agree..... However, I would suggest that given 8days before 1st game it's not an intelligent decision to trade for QB. The price wasn't bad, but the philosophy of giving up future draft picks for older players on high contracts that limit cap space and won't have the time to build the chemistry does not seem intelligent to me... And perhaps the bigger mistake was having a backup QB you aren't comfortable entering the season as a starter. I suppose that's why QBs get more money than I think they should as a percentage of the cap.

Nevertheless, if I was in Speilman's shoes, after Teddy went down, I'm sure I would have felt pressure to do the same thing as I assume ownership in the inaugural season of a new dome really wants everything done to try to win as much as possible. I don't really blame anyone per say, but I prefer sacrificing the short term to add value to the long term unless we're in obvious Super Bowl contention like the Broncos were in 2015 and you have a full offseason under that one move to get the team together.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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mike2mike wrote:Agree, agree, and agree..... However, I would suggest that given 8days before 1st game it's not an intelligent decision to trade for QB. The price wasn't bad, but the philosophy of giving up future draft picks for older players on high contracts that limit cap space and won't have the time to build the chemistry does not seem intelligent to me...
Ideally, I agree that you don't want to acquire a starting QB this close to the season but the Vikings are obviously not dealing with ideal conditions.
And perhaps the bigger mistake was having a backup QB you aren't comfortable entering the season as a starter. I suppose that's why QBs get more money than I think they should as a percentage of the cap.
Exactly. This is a consequence of their failure to adequately prepare for a situation like this.
Nevertheless, if I was in Speilman's shoes, after Teddy went down, I'm sure I would have felt pressure to do the same thing as I assume ownership in the inaugural season of a new dome really wants everything done to try to win as much as possible. I don't really blame anyone per say, but I prefer sacrificing the short term to add value to the long term unless we're in obvious Super Bowl contention like the Broncos were in 2015 and you have a full offseason under that one move to get the team together.
Some consider them Super Bowl contenders this year but more importantly, this doesn't have to be perceived as a short term move. Bradford could provide long term value and he should get a full offseason with the team next year. This isn't like trading for a 34 year old stopgap player. Bradford's in his prime.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

Post by MikethePurple »

I wasn't sure how to feel at first but given the circumstances (the timing of the injury so close to the season and the rumors of what prices other teams were asking for) the seemingly high price makes more sense. With the rest of the team around the qb position it would have been a tough pill to swallow going into the season with Hill as the projected starter. My main concern with Bradford is his injury history but I think in the situation they were pretty low on options. I'm ok with it (although I understand some people's views are it was too much to give up) and it gives me a little more hope going into the season. It really will be a wait and see situation.

I especially like the fact that it isn't a one year rental as some are saying and that there are two years on the contract giving them some sort of a contingency plan if Bridgewater's injury ends up being serious enough to affect 2017 as well (or potentially beyond). Given everything surrounding this bad turn of events it seems like a reasonable option and taking in to consideration some of the discussions in other threads of offering a first for McCarron, I'm much more comfortable with them giving up these picks for Bradford or going after someone like Sanchez.
720pete wrote:How long will it take for him to actually be able to play? How long does he need to learn the playbook? How long before he had 100% competency?
I think you hit the nail on the head with this question. Other than Bradford's injury history the other concern is how soon is he going to be able to effectively start? I don't want them to rush him in but at the same point, they are in a bit of a sticky situation. Let's hope the defense and Peterson can start the year out strong until Bradford is up to speed to add to the passing game.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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Mothman wrote:
Exactly.

It is has been ridiculously frustrating to watch this team neglect the same damn positions every single offseason: QB and OL.

I wish Bradford the best, but, we shouldn't even be in this situation in the first place. We have COUNTLESS opportunities to draft a QB to groom as a back-up/potential starter.
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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720pete wrote:How long will it take for him to actually be able to play? How long does he need to learn the playbook? How long before he had 100% competency?
remember when they signed Josh Freeman then they started him about 3 days later on Monday Night, and had him throw 50 passes?

What a debacle
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Re: Sam Bradford's a Viking

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Maybe Speilman and Company know more about this injury than they are saying? Maybe Teddy might not return to form after it heals? They way I see it Bradford is probably a better QB anyways. Doesn't Teddy now get the label of " Injury Prone"? That was the concern of many folks here when we drafted him. The price was too high in my judgement, but if we do really well we'll be drafting about 25 anyway. Still don't see why we couldn't have given a 2nd rounder instead. Time will tell, but I wouldn't mind seeing some medium to deep passes now and then, Teddy has no Deep ball threat whatsoever . If Bradford and the WR corps can provide a deeper threat and stretch the field AD could end up over 2000 yards again. If nothing else, this was a pretty BRAVE move on Speilmans part. I haven't been really impressed overall with Teddy anyway, better than Ponder and TJack but not by a Huge amount. Our passing attack is fairly weak as NFL standards go. Maybe this can change now
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