Vikings Message Board.Com

Thaumaturgist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:19 am

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:46 am https://www.dailynorseman.com/2021/2/4/ ... ta-vikings

Sounds like Watson will not play for Vikings

If he doesn't want to be here then I don't want him here even if he's the next Tom Brady.

lol I can tell you he's definitely not the next Tom Brady. As for the article, again it's all speculation. The media is looking for something to write and are just assuming Watson wouldnt want to be here. It makes sense because we have a dinosaur for a coach but I'll believe it when I hear it come out of his mouth or a credible source at least.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:31 am

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:46 am

Except your are wrong. Watson does address the offenses biggest issue; OL play. Due to his ability with his feet, he has shown a Superman like absolute to get out of trouble and buy time for his receivers. Something COVID Kirk simply cannot do. So adding Watson would be removing the Kryptonite.

That’s said, I’m not a fan of the trade. The costs would be too high and Honestly Kirk played very well the last 10 weeks of the season and if not for his awful contract I would saw he deserves a change to prove he can continue the trend. I would consider Giving up Kirk for Watson and a 2nd round pick. Can’t do that cause the idiot GM traded it for a later draft pick.

But here is my thing, does Watson solve the OL problem? His OL was bad in Houston too outside of his left tackle. In the last 3 years, Watson has taken 155 sacks. Kirk has taken 107 in the last 3 years. That's a gigantic difference. No less Watson has the athleticism to escape and Kirk is the opposite. This isnt just a small margin, it's huge. How does a "statue" type QB take 48 less sacks in 3 years with one of the worst interior OLs in football but a guy that everyone wants basically because of his escapability takes 16 more sacks a year on average?

I figured it in a previous post. Let's say sacks are "on average" a 7 yard loss each time. That would mean that Deshaun Watson has lost 336 more yards than Kirk Cousins due to sacks. That's insane. So my question is, does Watson REALLY help solve/hide the OL issue? I dont really think he does. There will be times during a game where he does, but overall, he's taking A LOT more than Cousins is in the long run. And then when you compare the rest of the 3 year stats of Cousins and Watson, they are near identical. So this is why I'm not a fan of this trade because Watson is going to cost an arm and a leg draft pick wise and be a monstrous hit on the cap. And in the end, how much more does Watson REALLY help us compared to Cousins? Many wont see it this way, but lets not let the media continue to pump up Watson and rip Cousins.

I think you must consider several things when comparing stats.

First, Watson was in his 2nd year during that 3 year period. Not always great to compare these guys at much different periods in their lives. Secondly, Qb that can run historically have higher sack totals. Their average sack distances are shorter. Remember, if I take off and don't get back to the LOS it still counts as a sack. Guys like Vick, Watson, Wilson and other guys capable of rushing often end up higher in sack totals. Finally, you subtracted too many yards for sacks given my last statement and didn't consider rushing totals. Even if we keep the previous figures, Watson is responsible for more than 800 yards more than Kirk just on the ground. Can't talk about the sacks and ignore the first downs, rushing yards, and tds.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:48 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:31 am

But here is my thing, does Watson solve the OL problem? His OL was bad in Houston too outside of his left tackle. In the last 3 years, Watson has taken 155 sacks. Kirk has taken 107 in the last 3 years. That's a gigantic difference. No less Watson has the athleticism to escape and Kirk is the opposite. This isnt just a small margin, it's huge. How does a "statue" type QB take 48 less sacks in 3 years with one of the worst interior OLs in football but a guy that everyone wants basically because of his escapability takes 16 more sacks a year on average?

I figured it in a previous post. Let's say sacks are "on average" a 7 yard loss each time. That would mean that Deshaun Watson has lost 336 more yards than Kirk Cousins due to sacks. That's insane. So my question is, does Watson REALLY help solve/hide the OL issue? I dont really think he does. There will be times during a game where he does, but overall, he's taking A LOT more than Cousins is in the long run. And then when you compare the rest of the 3 year stats of Cousins and Watson, they are near identical. So this is why I'm not a fan of this trade because Watson is going to cost an arm and a leg draft pick wise and be a monstrous hit on the cap. And in the end, how much more does Watson REALLY help us compared to Cousins? Many wont see it this way, but lets not let the media continue to pump up Watson and rip Cousins.

I think you must consider several things when comparing stats.

First, Watson was in his 2nd year during that 3 year period. Not always great to compare these guys at much different periods in their lives. Secondly, Qb that can run historically have higher sack totals. Their average sack distances are shorter. Remember, if I take off and don't get back to the LOS it still counts as a sack. Guys like Vick, Watson, Wilson and other guys capable of rushing often end up higher in sack totals. Finally, you subtracted too many yards for sacks given my last statement and didn't consider rushing totals. Even if we keep the previous figures, Watson is responsible for more than 800 yards more than Kirk just on the ground. Can't talk about the sacks and ignore the first downs, rushing yards, and tds.

Let's see QBs that can run get more sacks? This is from PFR Lamar Jackson in 2020 had 29 sacks. He is the best when it comes to running. Watson had 49 in 2020. Dan Marino who couldn't move an inch the most he ever got in his career was 28. Most seasons it was around 12. IMO having a quick release is the most important part. I don't give a dam about a running QB. I want a guy that can throw the ball first. We have guys that can run the ball. Beyond all that Watson does nothing to improve our team. If he averaged 50 TD passes a season than yea.... lets trade everything. He doesn't have that ability. Never will. IMO having a running QB is great and it worked the best for Young in SF. However when the guy is basically handling the ground game also it's just a matter of time before the knock out blow takes him out. Young found that out the hard way. Eventually Lamar will find that out to. Then everything will be blamed except him. With the pocket protection today don't leave the pocket. Hold tight and make the throw. And don't take sacks get rid of it quickly. Watson has proven he can't do that.

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:45 am

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:48 am

I think you must consider several things when comparing stats.

First, Watson was in his 2nd year during that 3 year period. Not always great to compare these guys at much different periods in their lives. Secondly, Qb that can run historically have higher sack totals. Their average sack distances are shorter. Remember, if I take off and don't get back to the LOS it still counts as a sack. Guys like Vick, Watson, Wilson and other guys capable of rushing often end up higher in sack totals. Finally, you subtracted too many yards for sacks given my last statement and didn't consider rushing totals. Even if we keep the previous figures, Watson is responsible for more than 800 yards more than Kirk just on the ground. Can't talk about the sacks and ignore the first downs, rushing yards, and tds.

Let's see QBs that can run get more sacks? This is from PFR Lamar Jackson in 2020 had 29 sacks. He is the best when it comes to running. Watson had 49 in 2020. Dan Marino who couldn't move an inch the most he ever got in his career was 28. Most seasons it was around 12. IMO having a quick release is the most important part. I don't give a dam about a running QB. I want a guy that can throw the ball first. We have guys that can run the ball. Beyond all that Watson does nothing to improve our team. If he averaged 50 TD passes a season than yea.... lets trade everything. He doesn't have that ability. Never will. IMO having a running QB is great and it worked the best for Young in SF. However when the guy is basically handling the ground game also it's just a matter of time before the knock out blow takes him out. Young found that out the hard way. Eventually Lamar will find that out to. Then everything will be blamed except him. With the pocket protection today don't leave the pocket. Hold tight and make the throw. And don't take sacks get rid of it quickly. Watson has proven he can't do that.

Being able to run and being a running Qb are two different things. Watson can pass with the best of them. He is a better Qb than Kirk and would make us better. However, the cost to aquire him would be my issue. The point was that guys who can move usually get sacked more. You use Lamar Jackson without looking at his Attpts. The guy simply doesn't pass that much. Less passing attempts = less chances to get sack. Anyone hear arguing that Kirk and Watson are similar in talent is wasting their time and mine. The issue is the cost to aquire the guy.

chicagopurple wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:17 pm and the Vikes organization has never coached up a QB into a top tier QB.....like ever....since Fran.....not sure our coaches even affect him very much , he was a freebird.

Well we did draft Gannon and Johnson who were in the Super Bowl. They were bums from college that were coached up by us. Our GM at the time felt they had better options. Now many feel there are much better options out there than Cousins that we can also get for cheap cap dollars. That will only happen through the draft. That guy will go pick 1.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:36 am

Thaumaturgist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:19 am

If he doesn't want to be here then I don't want him here even if he's the next Tom Brady.

lol I can tell you he's definitely not the next Tom Brady. As for the article, again it's all speculation. The media is looking for something to write and are just assuming Watson wouldnt want to be here. It makes sense because we have a dinosaur for a coach but I'll believe it when I hear it come out of his mouth or a credible source at least.

Let's forget sources for a minute. Here's what I believe, based on copious amounts of reading on the subject from a wide variety of sources, credible and otherwise.

1. Kyle Shanahan wants to move on from Jimmy Garoppolo.
2. Kyle Shanahan would consider Kirk Cousins one of his top choices to replace Jimmy G ... although I'd guess Watson would be his first choice.
3. San Francisco would give up more than a 2nd for Kirk Cousins, mainly because he's worth more than a 2nd. How much more? No idea.
4. Deshaun Watson would not, in fact, waive his no-trade clause to come to Minnesota.
5. Therefore, Point #4 is as good a reason as any to fire Mike Zimmer. When the very best players in the NFL want no part of you, then it's fair to believe that maybe it's time for a change.

I said it in another post, and I'll say it again. Unless the Vikings can get enough for Kirk Cousins to either use that draft capital in a trade for Deshaun Watson, or to move up and take one of the top QBs in this year's draft, then they should stand pat with Cousins. There is NOBODY other than Watson available at the present time who would be an upgrade.

Which means, in all likelihood, Kirk Cousins will be the quarterback for the Minnesota Vikings in 2021.

Once again, if I were the Wilfs, I'd change it all ... GM, coach and QB. But I'm not the Wilfs, so what I think isn't relevant. Cousins as the Vikings 2021 QB is the most likely scenario.

But I'll add this.

Spielman and Zimmer have hitched their cars firmly to the Kirk Cousins train. If that train derails again for the third time in four years, I would hope the Wilfs would cease to be passengers on it. After all, they own the railroad. So if the Vikings miss the playoffs again and somebody isn't fired, most Vikings fans will be really, really pissed. I'll be at the head of the line.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:33 pmBut I'll add this.

Spielman and Zimmer have hitched their cars firmly to the Kirk Cousins train. If that train derails again for the third time in four years, I would hope the Wilfs would cease to be passengers on it. After all, they own the railroad. So if the Vikings miss the playoffs again and somebody isn't fired, most Vikings fans will be really, really pissed. I'll be at the head of the line.

My worry is they extend Cousins again and the next regime will need to deal with the consequences.

For all those that say that Cousins wasn't the reason for the poor record this season.....I agree. The offense scored more than 30 points six times and went 3-3. They also lost 4 games in which they scored more than 3 TD's. Kansas City Only lost one game when they scored more than 30 points, and NO games when they scored more than 3 TD's (5-0).

But....you can't tell me that Watson wouldn't be an upgrade at QB. A prudent GM would have to weigh the cost to upgrade. As Kapp has stated, Watson doesn't want to come here anyhow which once again puts a demerit in the Zimmer column. Zimmer needs to go.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:46 am Except your are wrong. Watson does address the offenses biggest issue; OL play. Due to his ability with his feet, he has shown a Superman like absolute to get out of trouble and buy time for his receivers. Something COVID Kirk simply cannot do. So adding Watson would be removing the Kryptonite.

Put Watson behind the Vikings porous offensive line, and assuming you make it through to the playoffs, each playoff-caliber defensive coordinator you face from there on out is going to target your unaddressed OL weakness and have a plan to negate your QB's ability to run his way out of that weakness.

A weakness is a weakness. Watson at best makes it slightly less weak on its face PLUS by giving up so much to obtain him he likely prevents the Vikings from addressing the weakness much if at all. In the end they wind up in the same spot when it counts and where it counts.

If I'm Spielman, this is the order of business to address this offseason:

- Fix special teams. The Vikings literally lost several games or nearly lost games they would have won comfortably because they couldn't kick field goals, extra points, and struggled on coverage units and return units.
- Fix defensive issues. With Barr and Kendricks coming back healthy, the LBs should more or less take care of themselves. Zimmer needs to get his DBs playing better and more consistently and there is still room to add talent there either via the draft or FA. DL needs to get Hunter and Pierce on the field playing like they did pre-injury/pre-COVID, plus some younger players to step up.
- Fix interior OL. Some of this depends on what happens with Reiff at LT, because if Reiff goes, LT is an issue then too. Spielman and Zimmer have to decide if Bradbury is the right guy at center. He's been wildly inconsistent IMHO. Can that be fixed or should the Vikings be looking at centers in the upcoming draft who can push/replace him? Both guard positions need to be addressed. Is Cleveland's best position at guard? If Reiff leaves, does Cleveland shift out to LT, and if he shifts to LT, the Vikings need to find a guard. Dozier struggled all season. Maybe he can develop and he did well at times, but overall he was mostly a liability. The Vikings need to keep looking at that guard spot as well. Only O'Neill performed consistently all year. So big challenges along the entire OL. Luckily, this looks like a good draft for OL, and there may be more options in FA that can help as well.

Those are priorities 1a, 1b and 1c from where I sit.

QB isn't on the priority list. Like all positions, if Spielman can improve QB at reasonable cost, he absolutely should, but going to the well to improve a position that isn't a liability would be a fool's errand and should spell the end of Spielman's tenure as GM.

If Spielman can address the priorities I listed above this offseason, there is a very good chance the Vikings, with Kirk Cousins at QB, will be in the Superbowl conversation by the time the playoffs roll around next year.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm Put Watson behind the Vikings porous offensive line, and assuming you make it through to the playoffs, each playoff-caliber defensive coordinator you face from here on out is going to target your unaddressed OL weakness and have a plan to negate your QB's ability to run his way out of that weakness.

They do that anyway. They have done so and we have made it as far as the NFCCHG. The difference is a guy that can move like Keenum made things harder on said DCs. It is hard to blitz the interior and still protect against the roll out. You have no one helping to chase. The bottom line is Watson hasn't had our weapons to work with and would take his game to another level. Let me see you blitz the QB while, spying, helping on both AT and JJ, and making sure Cook doesn't leak out for an easy dumpoff. That's very hard to stop.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm A weakness is a weakness. Watson at best makes it slightly less weak on its face PLUS by giving up so much to obtain him he likely prevents the Vikings from addressing the weakness much if at all. In the end they wind up in the same spot when it counts and where it counts.

Sometimes you can overcome a weakness by protecting against it. Can't run the ball, run a lot of dump offs and screens where you can isolate the RB. Your other point about the cost to acquire him is correct. Although someone pointed out that we have wasted most of our 1st rounders.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm - Fix special teams. The Vikings literally lost several games or nearly lost games they would have won comfortably because they couldn't kick field goals, extra points, and struggled on coverage units and return units.
- Fix defensive issues. With Barr and Kendricks coming back healthy, the LBs should more or less take care of themselves. Zimmer needs to get his DBs playing better and more consistently and there is still room to add talent there either via the draft or FA. DL needs to get Hunter and Pierce on the field playing like they did pre-injury/pre-COVID, plus some younger players to step up.
- Fix interior OL. Some of this depends on what happens with Reiff at LT, because if Reiff goes, LT is an issue then too. Spielman and Zimmer have to decide if Bradbury is the right guy at center. He's been wildly inconsistent IMHO. Can that be fixed or should the Vikings be looking at centers in the upcoming draft who can push/replace him? Both guard positions need to be addressed. Is Cleveland's best position at guard? If Reiff leaves, does Cleveland shift out to LT, and if he shifts to LT, the Vikings need to find a guard. Dozier struggled all season. Maybe he can develop and he did well at times, but overall he was mostly a liability. The Vikings need to keep looking at that guard spot as well. Only O'Neill performed consistently all year. So big challenges along the entire OL. Luckily, this looks like a good draft for OL, and there may be more options in FA that can help as well.

Special Teams = Agreed but it is not the first action I take. Before any of these, we have to get a hold of our cap situation. Rudy is gone. I have been #### about his contract for 2 years. Horrible deal. Barr is traded for a 3rd rounder. The NFL is high on him but due to his injury, his 2nd round value drops to a 3rd. Another bad contract is gone. Harris is allowed to test the market but we tell him allow us to match the offer and keep you. He comes back to us after not a lot of need for his services at 6 million a year (age and low pay of Safeties). Stephan is gone. Another 3 million or so saved. Eric Wilson is allowed to test the market but it is luke warm. We get him back at 5 million a season. We roll out the red carpet for Poona Ford from Seattle. We make him the bell of the ball and a starter on defense. I would be prepared to offer him 9 million a year. He is is more NT than 3 tech but I believe him and Pierce can wreck havok when played with each other. We use our 1st rounder to draft Gregory Rousseau.
[/quote]

Defensive rebuild complete and you still have a couple of 3rd rounders and late picks to rebuild depth with athletic ST players at the Safety and LB positon.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm QB isn't on the priority list. Like all positions, if Spielman can improve QB at reasonable cost, he absolutely should, but going to the well to improve a position that isn't a liability would be a fool's errand and should spell the end of Spielman's tenure as GM.

I felt KC played well down the stretch. My biggest issue with him is his failure to move in the pocket. He either takes off and run or takes the sack. I think he could help his Oline by sliding more horizontally or finding the creases when pressure comes off the edge. Too often, he is standing exactly where his drop ends and that is like hunting season for DEs. He improved on this too this season but I would like to see a big improvement from him in this regard. You can't drop back 5 steps and stand there.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm If Spielman can address the priorities I listed above this offseason, there is a very good chance the Vikings, with Kirk Cousins at QB, will be in the Superbowl conversation by the time the playoffs roll around next year.

I must say you are delusional (joking). We are nowhere near a Superbowl team with this roster and those improvements won't get us there. At best even with my improvements, we are a top 8 team. This is assuming that Hunter is back to full form.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm

QB isn't on the priority list. Like all positions, if Spielman can improve QB at reasonable cost, he absolutely should, but going to the well to improve a position that isn't a liability would be a fool's errand and should spell the end of Spielman's tenure as GM.

If Spielman can address the priorities I listed above this offseason, there is a very good chance the Vikings, with Kirk Cousins at QB, will be in the Superbowl conversation by the time the playoffs roll around next year.

It should be.

There are two things the teams that consistently compete for a SB have: A great QB and a great team to put around him. With Cousins and his massive contract, we won't have either.

You surely can't skip a day in these hot button issues threads because what starts as quick hitting points turns into walls of text a few pages deep. I no longer care. tldr

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:22 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:33 pmBut I'll add this.

Spielman and Zimmer have hitched their cars firmly to the Kirk Cousins train. If that train derails again for the third time in four years, I would hope the Wilfs would cease to be passengers on it. After all, they own the railroad. So if the Vikings miss the playoffs again and somebody isn't fired, most Vikings fans will be really, really pissed. I'll be at the head of the line.

My worry is they extend Cousins again and the next regime will need to deal with the consequences.

I’ve brought this up, as well. That would be truly tragic.

I certainly hope the Wilfs put the kibosh on all this kicking the can down the road. Offering extensions to guys whose contracts outlive the player’s usefulness is like taking out a new credit card to pay off an old one that’s maxed out. It’s caught up with the Vikings, and it has to stop.

trade. cut. I just hope it happens. Yeah, it's not just that he's a very limited QB, it's personal too. Can't stand the guy.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:46 am Except your are wrong. Watson does address the offenses biggest issue; OL play. Due to his ability with his feet, he has shown a Superman like absolute to get out of trouble and buy time for his receivers. Something COVID Kirk simply cannot do. So adding Watson would be removing the Kryptonite.

Put Watson behind the Vikings porous offensive line, and assuming you make it through to the playoffs, each playoff-caliber defensive coordinator you face from there on out is going to target your unaddressed OL weakness and have a plan to negate your QB's ability to run his way out of that weakness.

A weakness is a weakness. Watson at best makes it slightly less weak on its face PLUS by giving up so much to obtain him he likely prevents the Vikings from addressing the weakness much if at all. In the end they wind up in the same spot when it counts and where it counts.

If I'm Spielman, this is the order of business to address this offseason:

- Fix special teams. The Vikings literally lost several games or nearly lost games they would have won comfortably because they couldn't kick field goals, extra points, and struggled on coverage units and return units.
- Fix defensive issues. With Barr and Kendricks coming back healthy, the LBs should more or less take care of themselves. Zimmer needs to get his DBs playing better and more consistently and there is still room to add talent there either via the draft or FA. DL needs to get Hunter and Pierce on the field playing like they did pre-injury/pre-COVID, plus some younger players to step up.
- Fix interior OL. Some of this depends on what happens with Reiff at LT, because if Reiff goes, LT is an issue then too. Spielman and Zimmer have to decide if Bradbury is the right guy at center. He's been wildly inconsistent IMHO. Can that be fixed or should the Vikings be looking at centers in the upcoming draft who can push/replace him? Both guard positions need to be addressed. Is Cleveland's best position at guard? If Reiff leaves, does Cleveland shift out to LT, and if he shifts to LT, the Vikings need to find a guard. Dozier struggled all season. Maybe he can develop and he did well at times, but overall he was mostly a liability. The Vikings need to keep looking at that guard spot as well. Only O'Neill performed consistently all year. So big challenges along the entire OL. Luckily, this looks like a good draft for OL, and there may be more options in FA that can help as well.

Those are priorities 1a, 1b and 1c from where I sit.

QB isn't on the priority list. Like all positions, if Spielman can improve QB at reasonable cost, he absolutely should, but going to the well to improve a position that isn't a liability would be a fool's errand and should spell the end of Spielman's tenure as GM.

If Spielman can address the priorities I listed above this offseason, there is a very good chance the Vikings, with Kirk Cousins at QB, will be in the Superbowl conversation by the time the playoffs roll around next year.

The concern being 1a and 1c have been consistent issues for Rick. And what makes it all the more concerning is he’s now throwing high draft capital at the problem and it still isn’t helping. Bradbury is a good example, you can count the number of centers drafted in the 1st round over the last 10 years on two hands. So when you do grab one, you better be sure they’re on the level of a Mangold, Alex Mack, or Pouncey. Bradbury is nowhere close. I’m not writing him off but he’s clearly not a 1st round center. Elflein, Samia, and Beavers weren’t throw away picks either.

I think 1b has the best chance of happening because we’ve had good defenses before. The big variable now is can they do it with less resources.