Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote: That's highly debatable. I think just as much of a case can be made for Brees, Brady and Peyton Manning.

I will assure that Luck will be in that elite class if not next year but for most of his career.

Rodgers has arguably benefitted from a better receiving corps than the 3 QBs mentioned above.

Let's not go there. If we do then we will have to re-evaluate everything it is we thought we knew about Joe Montana, among others.

Bottom line is that my argument was independent of someones receiving corp, because I don' think it helps with getting the true barometer of a quarterbacks skill level. I also spend a lot of time evaluating the position, so that helps me.

But to tickle that idea and to humor you, I can further that. New England's offense, it can be argued, is deemed successful predicated upon Bill's scheme of dink and dunk and having a versatile H-back along with a big and sturdy red zone target in their TE, and not neccessarily on having top flight receivers. Evidence: I came across a stat that indicated a quarterbacks yards per attempt that the ball travels through the air. Brady was #13 on this list. Rodgers? #1. From 2011, but still...

Manning, if we're looking at his Denver year, has also benefitted from a very talented, yet underrated, receiving corp.

What I'm getting at is that this argument of determining a quarterbacks value that is predicated on his receivers, is only a face value take of the situation and not really a deciding factor. Espeically since it can also be argued that Rodgers made names out of Jordy Nelson and James Jones, because they weren't ever considered top tier receivers prior to last season. They were simply benefactors of the next men in line in Green Bay's factory.

I also wouldn't say he easily faces the most pressure in the pocket. Brees certainly faces his share of pressure in New Orleans and in the last 2 or 3 years

This is tricky. While I'll agree that Brees faces his share of pressure, I may have termed that the wrong way. For one, smaller quarterbacks are naturally on the move and rolling out of the pocket and/or moving the pocket so they can find their passing lanes, which puts its own pressure on the offensive line for sustaining blocks. Maybe that's a stretch to you, but I see it.

If not that, then know that at a certain point last year, Brees had 60% accuracy under pressure. Pretty good, yes. Rodgers was at 77%.

I can get a littled carried away when we start talking quarterbacks.

But what we saw that came up a lot was the word "argued." So yes, I guess it's all a subjective opinion of what you think makes a great quarterback. I just love to discuss my Q's.

PacificNorseWest wrote:Let's not go there. If we do then we will have to re-evaluate everything it is we thought we knew about Joe Montana, among others.

Bottom line is that my argument was independent of someones receiving corp, because I don' think it helps with getting the true barometer of a quarterbacks skill level. I also spend a lot of time evaluating the position, so that helps me.

It was independent of the receiving corps but you still considered an outside factor (pressure allowed by the o-line). If we don't consider one outside factor (the receivers) then it doesn't seem right to consider blocking either, even though both the o-line and the receivers have an impact on QB performance.

But to tickle that idea and to humor you, I can further that. New England's offense, it can be argued, is deemed successful predicated upon Bill's scheme of dink and dunk and having a versatile H-back along with a big and sturdy red zone target in their TE, and not neccessarily on having top flight receivers. Evidence: I came across a stat that indicated a quarterbacks yards per attempt that the ball travels through the air. Brady was #13 on this list. Rodgers? #1. From 2011, but still...

Their current offense is predicated on those factors but we know Brady can operate successfully under a different structure and top flight receivers have played a significant role in NE in other seasons. They've simply adapted to their personnel and it can be argued that Brady's ability to adapt is another feather in his QB cap.

What I'm getting at is that this argument of determining a quarterbacks value that is predicated on his receivers, is only a face value take of the situation and not really a deciding factor. Espeically since it can also be argued that Rodgers made names out of Jordy Nelson and James Jones, because they weren't ever considered top tier receivers prior to last season. They were simply benefactors of the next men in line in Green Bay's factory.

I'm not making the argument that a QB's value is predicated on his receivers but they are clearly a factor, as is continuity with those receivers. Rodgers has been able to throw to essentially the same players for the majority of his career and there's a clear benefit to that continuity, especially when the receivers themselves are very talented (and Nelson, Jones, jennings and Cobb all fit that description).

There is no single deciding factor, not receivers, not pressure faced and not arm strength or mobility. It's the combination of individual qualities, overall performance and outside factors that make the best QBs the best.

As you said, evaluating a QB is subjective and that's why personally, I can't definitively refer to Rodgers as the best QB in the league right now. I can't definitively say Brees, Brady or Manning fit that description either. I see them as a group of QBs who have all been performing at an extremely high level and are close enough that it's too difficult for me to pick one out of the bunch and say he's the best.

...and yes, it's fun to discuss QBs so it's easy to get carried away.

Purple bruise wrote: Yea, you clearly have no idea bruh.
Rodgers is a HOF QB in a good system, not a good QB in a good system, if you disagree, then you simply have not watched him very closely.
Dude has the most insane arm since Marino, go back in history and find someone with a more talented arm then A-Rod, seriously.
Ive watched them all, Montana, Marino, Manning, Brady, etc. etc. I can honestly say without a doubt that Rodgers is the most unbelievable of all of them.
Find me a QB that is going to spin out of a tackle, run to his left throw a LASER of his WRONG FOOT, 40 yards down the field in between to DBs for a TD.
You go ahead and try to find any QB EVER in history that can go out there and do the stuff Rodgers can do, seriosuly, go try. There is a reason people talk about this guy the way they do, he simply can do it all, wrong foot, defender hanging off his shoulder, between 3 defenders, there is nothing this guy cannot do on the field.He has a great system, I agree. But all you have to do is watch the throws this guy makes to tell that he is a special, special talent. I understand your entitled to your opinion, but it doesnt make yours any less wrong. Montana, Staubach, Brady, none of them make the spectactular throws that Rodgers does on such and unrealistic frequency.

Hey man, AP is a great back, but im not sitting here trying to tell myself he is an alright back who is the product of a great system, he has a good system indeed, but I would have to be as foolishly blind/bias as your being to reason to myself that AP is anything less than a Hall of Famer.

I suggest the next time you watch Aaron Rodgers play, you pretend he is not a Packer, because otherwise your going to keep posting foolish bullcrap such as this, and keep making yourself look like a complete buffoon who only reads the scoring summary, instead of actually WATCHING the game, because if you actually watched him play, you would at least have a CLUE what your talking about.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You have watched and listed all of the QB's that, in your humble opinion, do not stack up to Rogers huh? Did you do it by design or did you conveniently leave Elway, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Steve Mcnair etc. off of your list. Do not get me wrong, Besides Luck (because of his age) my first choice would be Rogers. Going a step further team wise, do not get to overly excited about Lacy. He played with a "Pro Level" o-line and was, I believe the 4th back selected. I think that Grant was/is a better back.
The Vikes will show marked improvement with their interior D-line, upgraded CB (Winfield was aged and was penciled in for part time),
improved punting, and Ponder with a year under his belt and more threats a wr's (Jennings, Patterson, a healthy Simpson, and Wright coming off of a promising rookie year. The Vikes have the best RB in the league, the best blocking fullback in the league, a great pass rush Jarred Allen, Robison and Griffen who is proving that he has has unlimited potential and now have Floyd stopping up the middle, the best special teams coach, the best fg kicker, best young left tackle in the game, a road grader for a right tackle, a pro bowl type center, the best young ss in the division. Man I do not fear the Packers, in fact their recent slide from 15-1 to 11-5 should only continue. [/quote]


If I listed Montana, Stabauch, and Marino, you just be able to figure out what that says IMO about him vs guys like Elway and Young.

Trent Richardson and Mark Ingram both played behind a great Alabama line in college, are those guys not as good as Ryan Grant? LOL, please.

Im not sayinf he will be a world beater, but Lacy is the best back we have had in here for a long time, thats obviously not saying much, but the guy can break tackles and push a pile against the toughest competetion in the NCAA, this much has been proven true, I understand your trying to bash the Packers, but Ryan Grant? I like him and think his injury kept him from becoming what he should have become, but the dude was just mediocre, never more in my life has a player frusterated me so consistantly as Ryan Grant.

Lol, you think all that crap you just listed means anything? I could list a whole bunch of reasons as to how the Packers have improved and why they will be better then last year, but alas, this is the main forum, and nobody wants to see that ####. Let me just say that Ponder played THE BEST GAME OF HIS LIFE in week 17 and even with AP going off as usual, the Vikings barely squeezed out the win.

You guys better hope Patterson proves just as valuable to your team as Percy Harvin (Albeit, it would be in a different way.) because if not, you guys will have given up WAAYYY to much to go up and get him, especially with several comparable prospects coming up in the second round.

Purple bruise wrote: Yea, you clearly have no idea bruh.
Rodgers is a HOF QB in a good system, not a good QB in a good system, if you disagree, then you simply have not watched him very closely.
Dude has the most insane arm since Marino, go back in history and find someone with a more talented arm then A-Rod, seriously.
Ive watched them all, Montana, Marino, Manning, Brady, etc. etc. I can honestly say without a doubt that Rodgers is the most unbelievable of all of them.
Find me a QB that is going to spin out of a tackle, run to his left throw a LASER of his WRONG FOOT, 40 yards down the field in between to DBs for a TD.
You go ahead and try to find any QB EVER in history that can go out there and do the stuff Rodgers can do, seriosuly, go try. There is a reason people talk about this guy the way they do, he simply can do it all, wrong foot, defender hanging off his shoulder, between 3 defenders, there is nothing this guy cannot do on the field.He has a great system, I agree. But all you have to do is watch the throws this guy makes to tell that he is a special, special talent. I understand your entitled to your opinion, but it doesnt make yours any less wrong. Montana, Staubach, Brady, none of them make the spectactular throws that Rodgers does on such and unrealistic frequency.

Hey man, AP is a great back, but im not sitting here trying to tell myself he is an alright back who is the product of a great system, he has a good system indeed, but I would have to be as foolishly blind/bias as your being to reason to myself that AP is anything less than a Hall of Famer.

I suggest the next time you watch Aaron Rodgers play, you pretend he is not a Packer, because otherwise your going to keep posting foolish bullcrap such as this, and keep making yourself look like a complete buffoon who only reads the scoring summary, instead of actually WATCHING the game, because if you actually watched him play, you would at least have a CLUE what your talking about.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You have watched and listed all of the QB's that, in your humble opinion, do not stack up to Rogers huh? Did you do it by design or did you conveniently leave Elway, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Steve Mcnair etc. off of your list. Do not get me wrong, Besides Luck (because of his age) my first choice would be Rogers. Going a step further team wise, do not get to overly excited about Lacy. He played with a "Pro Level" o-line and was, I believe the 4th back selected. I think that Grant was/is a better back.
The Vikes will show marked improvement with their interior D-line, upgraded CB (Winfield was aged and was penciled in for part time),
improved punting, and Ponder with a year under his belt and more threats a wr's (Jennings, Patterson, a healthy Simpson, and Wright coming off of a promising rookie year. The Vikes have the best RB in the league, the best blocking fullback in the league, a great pass rush Jarred Allen, Robison and Griffen who is proving that he has has unlimited potential and now have Floyd stopping up the middle, the best special teams coach, the best fg kicker, best young left tackle in the game, a road grader for a right tackle, a pro bowl type center, the best young ss in the division. Man I do not fear the Packers, in fact their recent slide from 15-1 to 11-5 should only continue. [/quote]


If I listed Montana, Stabauch, and Marino, you just be able to figure out what that says IMO about him vs guys like Elway and Young.

Trent Richardson and Mark Ingram both played behind a great Alabama line in college, are those guys not as good as Ryan Grant? LOL, please.

Im not sayinf he will be a world beater, but Lacy is the best back we have had in here for a long time, thats obviously not saying much, but the guy can break tackles and push a pile against the toughest competetion in the NCAA, this much has been proven true, I understand your trying to bash the Packers, but Ryan Grant? I like him and think his injury kept him from becoming what he should have become, but the dude was just mediocre, never more in my life has a player frusterated me so consistantly as Ryan Grant.

Lol, you think all that crap you just listed means anything? I could list a whole bunch of reasons as to how the Packers have improved and why they will be better then last year, but alas, this is the main forum, and nobody wants to see that ####. Let me just say that Ponder played THE BEST GAME OF HIS LIFE in week 17 and even with AP going off as usual, the Vikings barely squeezed out the win.

You guys better hope Patterson proves just as valuable to your team as Percy Harvin (Albeit, it would be in a different way.) because if not, you guys will have given up WAAYYY to much to go up and get him, especially with several comparable prospects coming up in the second round.

Oh yea, and anyone who think Tom Brady is the best QB to ever live is delusional, real easy to win the SB when your taping the other teams hand signals, when he wins a title without cheating then Ill be impressed.

Trent Richardson is 100x better than Ryan Grant. Please.

RandallioCobb18 wrote:Oh yea, and anyone who think Tom Brady is the best QB to ever live is delusional, real easy to win the SB when your taping the other teams hand signals, when he wins a title without cheating then Ill be impressed.

RandallioCobb18 wrote:
but alas, this is the main forum, and nobody wants to see that ####.

I cant imagine anyone here likes hearing any of your #### at all.

RandallioCobb18 wrote:
If I listed Montana, Stabauch, and Marino, you just be able to figure out what that says IMO about him vs guys like Elway and Young.

Trent Richardson and Mark Ingram both played behind a great Alabama line in college, are those guys not as good as Ryan Grant? LOL, please.

Im not sayinf he will be a world beater, but Lacy is the best back we have had in here for a long time, thats obviously not saying much, but the guy can break tackles and push a pile against the toughest competetion in the NCAA, this much has been proven true, I understand your trying to bash the Packers, but Ryan Grant? I like him and think his injury kept him from becoming what he should have become, but the dude was just mediocre, never more in my life has a player frusterated me so consistantly as Ryan Grant.

Lol, you think all that crap you just listed means anything? I could list a whole bunch of reasons as to how the Packers have improved and why they will be better then last year, but alas, this is the main forum, and nobody wants to see that ####. Let me just say that Ponder played THE BEST GAME OF HIS LIFE in week 17 and even with AP going off as usual, the Vikings barely squeezed out the win.

You guys better hope Patterson proves just as valuable to your team as Percy Harvin (Albeit, it would be in a different way.) because if not, you guys will have given up WAAYYY to much to go up and get him, especially with several comparable prospects coming up in the second round.

Oh yea, and anyone who think Tom Brady is the best QB to ever live is delusional, real easy to win the SB when your taping the other teams hand signals, when he wins a title without cheating then Ill be impressed.

I would challenge you to do this but alas, all I can think of is that the Packers picked up some players in the draft. Have some people coming off of injuries from last year. Other than that, they have done....... Yeah. Nothing. You do sound like a typical Packers fan. "My team has improved, while your team has stagnated". Every year for the last 5 years all I hear from Packer fans is the Vikings defense is getting old. Funny thing, the average age of the Vikings defensive players right now, 25.9. Average age of Packer defensive players 25.6. And oh yeah, Ponder won't get any better. Really? Granted, I don't know if he will or not, but to sit there and say he won't improve at all is arrogant on anyone's part. Fact is we just don't know. I do know one thing, if Rodgers goes down with a season ending injury the Packers are done for the year. Because they have no one who can even come close to what he does. As to the Vikings, if Ponder goes down and Cassel comes in, they might even be better.

As to the Packers running game, one of the reason Peterson has been so successful is an offensive line that knows how to run block. If you watch on almost every one of Peterson's long runs he is not touched until he is past the D-line. There is a reason for that. The Packers need to run block better. Part of that is the ongoing rotation of O-line the Packers have due to injuries and whatnot. Go back and take a look at how many players started last year for the Packers o-line. They let Wells go, brought in Saturday and he didn't even make it the whole season before being benched. Some of that may be coaching, it may not. If I were a Packer fan I would be worried about the fact the last few years so many of the Packer players have had season ending injuries, more than most teams. There has to be a reason for it. One year is a just a bad year. But year in and year out? That looks like a pattern, no team is that unlucky on injuries.

This Cobb18 dude is nothing but a troll. Saying Brady sucks cause of some cheating (which the Packers never ever did, I mean ever) which had no effect really on what Brady was doing then, and certainly not now, is absurd. I assume the Packers new RB is already better then AD will ever be.

I would love for an injury scare for AR. Nothing too serious mind you, I don't wish harm on anyone. But maybe like, a stomped hand that bruises and possibly might be a hairline fracture, just causing him to sit for 3-4 games or so. Let the Packers see how they underpaid AR with that contract since he is nearly the whole of the teams offense. The idea that he is the GOAT? Its laughable. He has been INSANE in 2011, 2012. But that is two years. He has been the starter in GB since 2008 but I would say that, looking at his numbers, only those two years make him ELITE. Hes always been a high quality starter but to suggest that he is the GOAT based on 2/5 years of a career is... soooooo... Homer-y that its truly shocking you can't see it. Does he deserve to be in the conversation about potentially, eventually being GOAT? Sure he has earned that. Anything else is just BS.

This is just my opinion:

GB is well on its way to being this decades’ version of last decade’s Colts. If AR ever goes down they will be lucky to win 6-7 games. That being said, they’ve got a great QB and that is the way of a great QB. Frankly I think Ted Thompson is also the Bill Polian of this decade. Everyone talks about how great he is, but look at the trajectory of their defense, OL, and running game since 2010. The reality is that AR is covering up a lot of mediocrity, which is why GB has won a lot of regular season games the past few seasons, but has also gotten beaten in the playoffs the last two years against well balanced clubs who protect the football.

@packers fan. When I was growing up the Packers were not very good, it wasn't until the 90's they turned around and in a big way (farve). Teams come to dominance and fall all the time. Remember that a team can suck at any time... like Vikings in '10-'11 or Detroit... well all the time.

Most winning-est team is still Chicago, and you don't think they're going to win the North do you? How about Vikings who are still in the top 10 of highest percentage winning team?

NFC is just a monster with teams right now and the North isn't doing itself any favors by having nothing but dangerous teams (I miss having tampa as a punching bag) and the West or East (much of whom we play this year) are also very serious threats.

You better pray that AR is all you think he is because this year is going to be brutal.

lol love how he calls Brady a cheater yet if it wasn't for a BS Shiancoe overturned TD and a BS Quarless upheld TD they'd never even make post season in 2010. WRs who constantly push off, OL that constantly holds, DBs who constantly interfere...I mean...this organization is blessed by the football gods and I have no idea why. Good beer? Nah. MN is better.