Vikings at Broncos

[makila]

We were outcoached. Both KO and Flores. Flores had the D playing well, but at times, faltered. Esp when we needed a stop the most. Denver went right down the field and scored a TD. We aernt a good team, maybe average, but not even good.

Blackmon was in good position on the duck ball TD, but just didn't make the play on the ball and instead took a whack at the receiver's hands. Maybe that is coached, but when Wilson let it fly I was sure it was going to be picked. Hard to blame Flores for that.

Vikings defense also created no turnovers to counter the turnovers Denver's defense created. Pace almost got one but close only counters in horseshoes and hand grenades. Josh M also had a good shot at a pick to keep 3 points off the board at the end of the 1st but he muffed it. That stuff adds up unfortunately.

Also, did anyone notice how few calls Dobbs is getting? That hit that caused the fumble honestly looked like it could have been an ejection, much less an obvious 15 yard penalty. No call. Then later there were two plays where the defender clearly hits Dobbs facemask. One was the duck ball throw he managed to get off to Hockenson for a nice gain, but there was another one as well. If Dobbs is Rodgers or Brady on either of those, the defender would have been locked up in the stadium jail. For Dobbs, no call on either one.

I hate to complain about the refs but at least as far as them protecting the QB goes, they did an a$$ job of that last night as far as Dobbs was concerned.

Agreed on these points.

Blackmon and Metellus were both in position for picks. The Sutton TD when Russ threw it, I thought for sure was a pick. Sutton "out-athleted" Blackmon.

The hit on Dobbs should have been a 15 yd penalty. Not blaming the refs at all, the Vikings absolutely lost the game. That hit they missed though.

[CharVike]

We were outcoached. Both KO and Flores. Flores had the D playing well, but at times, faltered. Esp when we needed a stop the most. Denver went right down the field and scored a TD. We aernt a good team, maybe average, but not even good.

Blackmon was in good position on the duck ball TD, but just didn't make the play on the ball and instead took a whack at the receiver's hands. Maybe that is coached, but when Wilson let it fly I was sure it was going to be picked. Hard to blame Flores for that.

Vikings defense also created no turnovers to counter the turnovers Denver's defense created. Pace almost got one but close only counters in horseshoes and hand grenades. Josh M also had a good shot at a pick to keep 3 points off the board at the end of the 1st but he muffed it. That stuff adds up unfortunately.

Also, did anyone notice how few calls Dobbs is getting? That hit that caused the fumble honestly looked like it could have been an ejection, much less an obvious 15 yard penalty. No call. Then later there were two plays where the defender clearly hits Dobbs facemask. One was the duck ball throw he managed to get off to Hockenson for a nice gain, but there was another one as well. If Dobbs is Rodgers or Brady on either of those, the defender would have been locked up in the stadium jail. For Dobbs, no call on either one.

I hate to complain about the refs but at least as far as them protecting the QB goes, they did an a$$ job of that last night as far as Dobbs was concerned.

One thing about Pace he is out there playing hard. Looks like he might be a leader and I think he was calling the D and signaling adjustments. Not bad for an undrafted rookie. They went after Blackmon hard. I give him credit. He gave up some catches but it's looks like he has good movement and ball awarement. Face it playing CB in the NFL is very difficult. You can almost call PI on every play. Even for a ref it must suck.

[J. Kapp 11]

Ty Chandler — 14 touches, 110 yards from scrimmage, 0 fumbles.

Put. The. Man. In.

I thought him and Mattison complemented each other well. I agree Mattison needs to be the second option. Demoted, basically. But I don't know that I want Chandler as a "every down" guy. I love how hard Mattison runs and in situations where they need that I think he's the best on the roster. I think if we made Chandler full time and put him in those situations in addition he wouldn't look as great.

I'm not as concerned with Mattison's fumbles. They suck and stay in your memory but he doesn't have more than normal. He's had 2 fumbles in 173 rushes/catches or one every 86 touches. The current top RB in the league has a rate of one fumble every 87 touches. Christian McCaffrey has 3 fumbles over 217 touches or once every 72 touches.

I’m not sure you want to start comparing Alexander Mattison to Christian McCaffrey. I could live with a slightly higher fumble rate if Mattison approached half of McCaffrey’s production.

The fact is this … Mattison had his best game of the season, but he fumbled at the worst possible time. Even a field goal there, and we’re in a completely different mood today after a Vikings win.

Also, while Mattison had his best game of the season, Chandler was even better in his first real shot at extended playing time.

I’m not saying they should bench Mattison. But I believe the roles should be reversed. Chandler should be the RB1 with Mattison spelling him.

[J. Kapp 11]

We were outcoached. Both KO and Flores. Flores had the D playing well, but at times, faltered. Esp when we needed a stop the most. Denver went right down the field and scored a TD. We aernt a good team, maybe average, but not even good.

Blackmon was in good position on the duck ball TD, but just didn't make the play on the ball and instead took a whack at the receiver's hands. Maybe that is coached, but when Wilson let it fly I was sure it was going to be picked. Hard to blame Flores for that.

Vikings defense also created no turnovers to counter the turnovers Denver's defense created. Pace almost got one but close only counters in horseshoes and hand grenades. Josh M also had a good shot at a pick to keep 3 points off the board at the end of the 1st but he muffed it. That stuff adds up unfortunately.

Also, did anyone notice how few calls Dobbs is getting? That hit that caused the fumble honestly looked like it could have been an ejection, much less an obvious 15 yard penalty. No call. Then later there were two plays where the defender clearly hits Dobbs facemask. One was the duck ball throw he managed to get off to Hockenson for a nice gain, but there was another one as well. If Dobbs is Rodgers or Brady on either of those, the defender would have been locked up in the stadium jail. For Dobbs, no call on either one.

I hate to complain about the refs but at least as far as them protecting the QB goes, they did an a$$ job of that last night as far as Dobbs was concerned.

The Dobbs non-call was heinous. And the fact that it came on the third play of the game from Kareem Jackson, who had just come off a 4-game suspension for repeated headhunting, made it infuriating.

They also missed a headhunting call later in the game when Simmons drilled Mattison in the face on a high-low tackle.

And today we get this news from Connor Leatch, Minnesota sports reporter for The Athletic …

An inside source has confirmed to me that an investigation within the #Broncos organization regarding possible incentives to injure opposing players is underway.

Could be a huge story coming out of Denver this morning. I’ll let you know as I hear more.

As many of you know, I’m a retired journalist and am very careful about who I rely on for news. I consider The Athletic to be the best source anywhere for sports news. So I do not take this possible news lightly.

If it turns out to be true, then Sean Payton should be banned from the NFL for life.

[makila]

Yeah won't be able to use Greg Williams as a scape goat again. Grrrr

[CharVike]

Blackmon was in good position on the duck ball TD, but just didn't make the play on the ball and instead took a whack at the receiver's hands. Maybe that is coached, but when Wilson let it fly I was sure it was going to be picked. Hard to blame Flores for that.

Vikings defense also created no turnovers to counter the turnovers Denver's defense created. Pace almost got one but close only counters in horseshoes and hand grenades. Josh M also had a good shot at a pick to keep 3 points off the board at the end of the 1st but he muffed it. That stuff adds up unfortunately.

Also, did anyone notice how few calls Dobbs is getting? That hit that caused the fumble honestly looked like it could have been an ejection, much less an obvious 15 yard penalty. No call. Then later there were two plays where the defender clearly hits Dobbs facemask. One was the duck ball throw he managed to get off to Hockenson for a nice gain, but there was another one as well. If Dobbs is Rodgers or Brady on either of those, the defender would have been locked up in the stadium jail. For Dobbs, no call on either one.

I hate to complain about the refs but at least as far as them protecting the QB goes, they did an a$$ job of that last night as far as Dobbs was concerned.

The Dobbs non-call was heinous. And the fact that it came on the third play of the game from Kareem Jackson, who had just come off a 4-game suspension for repeated headhunting, made it infuriating.

They also missed a headhunting call later in the game when Simmons drilled Mattison in the face on a high-low tackle.

And today we get this news from Connor Leatch, Minnesota sports reporter for The Athletic …

An inside source has confirmed to me that an investigation within the #Broncos organization regarding possible incentives to injure opposing players is underway.

Could be a huge story coming out of Denver this morning. I’ll let you know as I hear more.

As many of you know, I’m a retired journalist and am very careful about who I rely on for news. I consider The Athletic to be the best source anywhere for sports news. So I do not take this possible news lightly.

If it turns out to be true, then Sean Payton should be banned from the NFL for life.

The fact they even let Payton back in the NFL after his suspension is a surprise. You can always have a silent Don't Hire Him. That bounty on Farve in the 2009 champ game should have ended it for him. Dobbs isn't a big ticket item so I don't expect much. Nice feel good story but nothing beyond that. Neither is Mattison.

[J. Kapp 11]

The Dobbs non-call was heinous. And the fact that it came on the third play of the game from Kareem Jackson, who had just come off a 4-game suspension for repeated headhunting, made it infuriating.

They also missed a headhunting call later in the game when Simmons drilled Mattison in the face on a high-low tackle.

And today we get this news from Connor Leatch, Minnesota sports reporter for The Athletic …



As many of you know, I’m a retired journalist and am very careful about who I rely on for news. I consider The Athletic to be the best source anywhere for sports news. So I do not take this possible news lightly.

If it turns out to be true, then Sean Payton should be banned from the NFL for life.

The fact they even let Payton back in the NFL after his suspension is a surprise. You can always have a silent Don't Hire Him. That bounty on Farve in the 2009 champ game should have ended it for him. Dobbs isn't a big ticket item so I don't expect much. Nice feel good story but nothing beyond that. Neither is Mattison.

Doesn’t matter if Dobbs or Mattison are big-ticket items.

The Broncos have been doing this all year. The Dobbs hit was Jackson’s third PLAY after coming off suspension for the same crap. The investigation likely will center on the Broncos’ pattern of questionable play, along with any role Bounty Boy may have had in it.

[JJBreaksRecords]

We were outcoached. Both KO and Flores. Flores had the D playing well, but at times, faltered. Esp when we needed a stop the most. Denver went right down the field and scored a TD. We aernt a good team, maybe average, but not even good.

Did expect Flores to shut them out? We fumbled on our first possession and I thought we just gave them a TD. But only a FG. That long drive hurt but you will give up something. I thought KO did some good things. Direct snap to Chandler worked. We are playing with a journeyman QB and got beat by one point on the road. We had a chance to still drive down for a FG attempt and win. In that location you can try from 70 yards and have a chance.

In the end, Denvers D was better than Flores D. Its that simple and why we gave up a TD.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The defense came through over and over again. I won't blame them for not being able to be perfect and giving up a touch down when it might have been at least 2 TDs on top of that for many other defenses in the league.

This is the first game where they really missed Jefferson. They were all over Hockenson and Addison and if Jefferson had been on the field at least one of them would have been open more. I'm not sure where Osborn was but he only had two targets. Maybe still not 100%? I don't recall if he went out. Then there's being able to throw it to a target like Jefferson is huge for a QB like Dobbs in the first place. An WR that can bail you out a little better and consistently complete those contested passes. I think Jefferson's absence was the deciding factor in this game. If he had been in it's a win, I believe.

It's a disappointing loss but giving the ball up 3 times and not taking it back at all is the only stat you even really need to look at. Just having a -1 turn over differential is 70% loss rate. At -3 I think it's 90% or something like that. The Vikings defense worked a miracle just keeping the team in the game.

Honestly I think this is the first game they really missed Cousins. I’ve said all along to fellow buddies that Dobbs makes me nervous in the pocket. He seems to hold onto the ball forever and doesn’t do anything until someone is right on top of him. Dobbs can’t make anything close to the throws that cousins can make. However we knew that coming in. Granted Dobbs can make up for some with his legs but overall, that accuracy and understanding of the offense is what we missed in this game offensively. That’s a game cousins wins IMO. I don’t want to fault Dobbs but something about this game made me clench every time he threw the ball. He just didn’t look comfortable at all and clearly doesn’t have trust in his receivers down field whereas cousins did. Now yes, that’s understandable. Cousins has been here for 2 years under KOC and Dobbs has been here 3 weeks. But in the end, we needed the accuracy, we needed the understanding of the offense, we needed the trust in the WRs and we didn’t have that at all in this game.

As for mattison, I’m not sure how any RB gets this many chances. It’s week 11 and the guy has yet to score a rushing TD and has started the entire year. His first step is deathly slow. His hands are questionable. I’m not sure what KOCs ties to him are, but they need to start chandler from here on out.

As for KOC, great coaching in the first half. Second half what bothered me is denver clearly adjusted its run defense and it showed. However, KOC didn’t adjust his offense. I don’t expect Dobbs to run a 1 minute drill at the end to win us a game when he’s been here 3 weeks. However when we were up 17-15 and had the ball at like the 5 yard line, we run two up the gut and then get sacked (if I remember correctly). That was our chance to step on their throat. 7 points would’ve put us up by 9 and game would’ve been out of reach. Instead, he pulled a page out of the Mike zimmer playbook, played it conservative and put the game in the hands of his defense. Just poor, poor play calling there. I mean the fake punt was great, you played that down like you wanted to step on their throat. Yet you get down to the 5 and tried pushing a run game that was no longer working.

I love KOC don’t get me wrong, but he played scared right there. That was our chance and he tried to play the clock game and take the points. Let’s hope he doesn’t do that again.

They had a chance to win 9 in a row with burrow being out now. But in the end, this is the nfl, that’s near impossible for any team to do. Especially one missing its pro bowl QB and best overall player in Jefferson. However, I think we can get going again with these next 3 of Chicago, Vegas and cincy.

[cogitator]

The fact they even let Payton back in the NFL after his suspension is a surprise. You can always have a silent Don't Hire Him. That bounty on Farve in the 2009 champ game should have ended it for him. Dobbs isn't a big ticket item so I don't expect much. Nice feel good story but nothing beyond that. Neither is Mattison.

Doesn’t matter if Dobbs or Mattison are big-ticket items.

The Broncos have been doing this all year. The Dobbs hit was Jackson’s third PLAY after coming off suspension for the same crap. The investigation likely will center on the Broncos’ pattern of questionable play, along with any role Bounty Boy may have had in it.

Kareem Jackson playing like he is trying to hurt people. He's been kicked out of 2 games, then suspended for 2 more when that didn't change his play, and then this afternoon he was suspended for 4 more games.

[J. Kapp 11]

Doesn’t matter if Dobbs or Mattison are big-ticket items.

The Broncos have been doing this all year. The Dobbs hit was Jackson’s third PLAY after coming off suspension for the same crap. The investigation likely will center on the Broncos’ pattern of questionable play, along with any role Bounty Boy may have had in it.

Kareem Jackson playing like he is trying to hurt people. He's been kicked out of 2 games, then suspended for 2 more when that didn't change his play, and then this afternoon he was suspended for 4 more games.

Don’t know how many of you are old enough to remember Jack Tatum of the old Oakland Raiders.

Tatum was a safety who came to the NFL in 1971. He was called “The Assassin” because he hit receivers coming over the middle so ferociously that it was apparent he was trying to injure them. If you went over the middle against Tatum, you were likely to pay a huge price. Tatum never apologized for the style he played. "It's unrealistic,” he said. “If you want to play football for a living, you're going to get injured."

In 1972, he was involved with one of the most famous plays in NFL history, “The Immaculate Reception.” On a pass intended for John Fuqua, Tatum hit Fuqua so hard that the ball ricocheted at least 15 yards into the hands of Franco Harris, who ran it in for one of the most famous game-winning touchdowns in history.

Tatum’s worst incident happened in a preseason game on August 12, 1978. He hit Patriots WR Daryl Stingley in the back on a pass over the middle. The hit broke Stingley’s neck and left him paralyzed from the chest down. According to Stingley in his 1983 autobiography, Happy To Be Alive, Tatum never made any effort to apologize or to see him after the incident. However, coach John Madden said that the incident affected Tatum for the rest of his life. Tatum became a recluse and talked to very few people following the incident.

I know it’s fashionable to say that football is a violent game, and injuries are going to happen. And that’s true. But when players go out of their way to hurt other players, a line has to be drawn. The game is dangerous enough without that kind of play. The Stingley incident is plenty of proof, and that was long before anything about CTE was known.

And if a coach encourages injuring other players, especially to the point of either providing financial incentive or turning his back while assistants do it, then that coach has no place in the NFL, college football, high school, Pop Warner … nothing.

Freaking Payton. It’s ALWAYS his teams. Smoke-fire, walks like a duck … name the cliche. Somebody ought to tie him up and let Kareem Jackson spear him, let him see how it feels.

[StanM]

Ty Chandler — 14 touches, 110 yards from scrimmage, 0 fumbles.

Put. The. Man. In.

I thought him and Mattison complemented each other well. I agree Mattison needs to be the second option. Demoted, basically. But I don't know that I want Chandler as a "every down" guy. I love how hard Mattison runs and in situations where they need that I think he's the best on the roster. I think if we made Chandler full time and put him in those situations in addition he wouldn't look as great.

I'm not as concerned with Mattison's fumbles. They suck and stay in your memory but he doesn't have more than normal. He's had 2 fumbles in 173 rushes/catches or one every 86 touches. The current top RB in the league has a rate of one fumble every 87 touches. Christian McCaffrey has 3 fumbles over 217 touches or once every 72 touches.

Actually we had a decent day at the running back position if one thinks in terms of “running back by committee”. Mattison and Chandler plus Dobbs’ 21 yards came to 175 against Denver. True nobody broke the 100 yard barrier but they reached a decent yardage total that I’d be happy with every game. I think holding Addison to around fifty and no JJ along with a motivated team playing at home all factored in. That early hit that appeared to cause Dobbs to hear footsteps all night resulted in a four game suspension per this mornings news. It was a tough physical night. If we played them at home and penalties had been called along with Maddison hanging onto the ball we’d have been in much better shape. My optimism doesn’t go beyond one playoff win if they make it.

Sunday night almost looked like KOC was trying to reel Dobbs in and get some more traditional QB play from the pocket.

[CharVike]

Kareem Jackson playing like he is trying to hurt people. He's been kicked out of 2 games, then suspended for 2 more when that didn't change his play, and then this afternoon he was suspended for 4 more games.

Don’t know how many of you are old enough to remember Jack Tatum of the old Oakland Raiders.

Tatum was a safety who came to the NFL in 1971. He was called “The Assassin” because he hit receivers coming over the middle so ferociously that it was apparent he was trying to injure them. If you went over the middle against Tatum, you were likely to pay a huge price. Tatum never apologized for the style he played. "It's unrealistic,” he said. “If you want to play football for a living, you're going to get injured."

In 1972, he was involved with one of the most famous plays in NFL history, “The Immaculate Reception.” On a pass intended for John Fuqua, Tatum hit Fuqua so hard that the ball ricocheted at least 15 yards into the hands of Franco Harris, who ran it in for one of the most famous game-winning touchdowns in history.

Tatum’s worst incident happened in a preseason game on August 12, 1978. He hit Patriots WR Daryl Stingley in the back on a pass over the middle. The hit broke Stingley’s neck and left him paralyzed from the chest down. According to Stingley in his 1983 autobiography, Happy To Be Alive, Tatum never made any effort to apologize or to see him after the incident. However, coach John Madden said that the incident affected Tatum for the rest of his life. Tatum became a recluse and talked to very few people following the incident.

I know it’s fashionable to say that football is a violent game, and injuries are going to happen. And that’s true. But when players go out of their way to hurt other players, a line has to be drawn. The game is dangerous enough without that kind of play. The Stingley incident is plenty of proof, and that was long before anything about CTE was known.

And if a coach encourages injuring other players, especially to the point of either providing financial incentive or turning his back while assistants do it, then that coach has no place in the NFL, college football, high school, Pop Warner … nothing.

Freaking Payton. It’s ALWAYS his teams. Smoke-fire, walks like a duck … name the cliche. Somebody ought to tie him up and let Kareem Jackson spear him, let him see how it feels.

Tatum hit Sammy White hard in the Super Bowl also. Knocked his helmet off. It's a violent game but that's part of the attraction. No different than boxing ect...What Payton allowed to happen with Farve in that champ game was the most sickening to me. Farve even said they called X number of roughing the passer calls but it should have been double that. I always hoped that one of our players would take Payton out with a sideline hit. Punch a rib through a lung.

[CharVike]

I thought him and Mattison complemented each other well. I agree Mattison needs to be the second option. Demoted, basically. But I don't know that I want Chandler as a "every down" guy. I love how hard Mattison runs and in situations where they need that I think he's the best on the roster. I think if we made Chandler full time and put him in those situations in addition he wouldn't look as great.

I'm not as concerned with Mattison's fumbles. They suck and stay in your memory but he doesn't have more than normal. He's had 2 fumbles in 173 rushes/catches or one every 86 touches. The current top RB in the league has a rate of one fumble every 87 touches. Christian McCaffrey has 3 fumbles over 217 touches or once every 72 touches.

Actually we had a decent day at the running back position if one thinks in terms of “running back by committee”. Mattison and Chandler plus Dobbs’ 21 yards came to 175 against Denver. True nobody broke the 100 yard barrier but they reached a decent yardage total that I’d be happy with every game. I think holding Addison to around fifty and no JJ along with a motivated team playing at home all factored in. That early hit that appeared to cause Dobbs to hear footsteps all night resulted in a four game suspension per this mornings news. It was a tough physical night. If we played them at home and penalties had been called along with Maddison hanging onto the ball we’d have been in much better shape. My optimism doesn’t go beyond one playoff win if they make it.

Sunday night almost looked like KOC was trying to reel Dobbs in and get some more traditional QB play from the pocket.

I commented about the great block Chandler had on that pass to Hock but overall he didn't do very well pass blocking. Maybe that's why there is some hesitation to play him more. Matti's fumble seemed to turn the tide against us. The timing was terrible. It gave the Bronco's new life. We couldn't deliver the knock out blow in that game. Running QBs are great and the fans seem to love it. The problem is the wear and tear eventually adds up and bad things happen.
https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethe ... cking-woes

[Cliff]

I thought him and Mattison complemented each other well. I agree Mattison needs to be the second option. Demoted, basically. But I don't know that I want Chandler as a "every down" guy. I love how hard Mattison runs and in situations where they need that I think he's the best on the roster. I think if we made Chandler full time and put him in those situations in addition he wouldn't look as great.

I'm not as concerned with Mattison's fumbles. They suck and stay in your memory but he doesn't have more than normal. He's had 2 fumbles in 173 rushes/catches or one every 86 touches. The current top RB in the league has a rate of one fumble every 87 touches. Christian McCaffrey has 3 fumbles over 217 touches or once every 72 touches.

I’m not sure you want to start comparing Alexander Mattison to Christian McCaffrey. I could live with a slightly higher fumble rate if Mattison approached half of McCaffrey’s production.

The fact is this … Mattison had his best game of the season, but he fumbled at the worst possible time. Even a field goal there, and we’re in a completely different mood today after a Vikings win.

Also, while Mattison had his best game of the season, Chandler was even better in his first real shot at extended playing time.

I’m not saying they should bench Mattison. But I believe the roles should be reversed. Chandler should be the RB1 with Mattison spelling him.

I'm not comparing skill for sure, just the fact that they're both starting NFL running backs so it's not completely apples to apples. The point was, that regardless of how well you're playing, his rate of fumbles isn't actually high even if it came at a terrible time.

I agree, Chandler should start.