CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:19 pm
Moss had one skill? He couldn't catch a football? I don't remember too many drops or balls bouncing off his hands. How about returning punts? Moss made stiff QBs look like HOFer. Salisbury steak was one of them. Once Cousin steps down and we start the recycling of stiffs again JJs numbers will change. He had a chance last year without Kirk and he didn't do much. Give him year after year of the Joe Webb's of the world. It will be different. R Smith said Moss could block.
Belichick also said moss was one of the smartest players he's coached. I think Tom Brady said something to that affect as well, so he had a bit more than just the speed. JJ is awesome and hopefully he'll pass Moss one day, I don't think he's there yet, but it's totally possible with what he has done so far.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:53 pm
What, you think I HAVEN’T seen Moss play? What kind of comment is that?
Moss had one skill … an all-time great one, but still one. He could beat you deep. Yes, he was the best in history at that. But he was not a precise route runner, he did not like going over the middle, he didn’t fight for YAC, and he didn’t think blocking was worth his time. He made his living being the fastest 6-4 human in NFL history, and having a basketball player’s vertical jump. Throw it up and let Randy go get it. But do not tell me he was a complete receiver in the way JJ is cuz it just ain’t true.
Randy Moss was an electric player who changed the way the NFL played defense. JJ is putting up better numbers against those updated defenses. I will say this. If Justin Jefferson stays healthy over the next 4 years, getting him to 7 years, he will eclipse every statistic Randy Moss ever recorded in his 7 years with the Vikings except for touchdowns.
Moss had one skill? He couldn't catch a football? I don't remember too many drops or balls bouncing off his hands. How about returning punts? Moss made stiff QBs look like HOFer. Salisbury steak was one of them. Once Cousin steps down and we start the recycling of stiffs again JJs numbers will change. He had a chance last year without Kirk and he didn't do much. Give him year after year of the Joe Webb's of the world. It will be different. R Smith said Moss could block.
Allow me to refresh your memory or introduce you to the biggest randy moss drop in Vikings history. It changed the complexion of the game and we all know how that turned out /wince. Then i welcome your rebuttal.
45: 45 to 46:22 if you dare.
Yo Kapp? he was cuttin across the middle on this one. career defining moment in my opinion.
Look up Moss myth busting videos on this channel. He has a lot of good one's. I think JJ is the best young WR in the league but I'm not ready to put him up there with Moss or CC. One had what I would consider the best hands of any WR of all time. The other was the equivalent of a nuclear weapon on the field. He changed how you view the WR position and was always a threat to blow the game wide open.
First, since you went to the trouble of providing the link, I did you the courtesy of looking at the "Moss can't run routes" myth video. Thank you. Very interesting. It doesn't really bust the myth for me, though. Half the clips they show are go routes in one form or another. The others are simple hitch routes or post routes. A few double moves, but he doesn't stem guys up the way JJ does. He just blows by them. Defenders were terrified of him, and you can see it in the way they played him.
Also, let's clear something up. I didn't mean to say Moss only had one skill. I said he had one GREAT skill. By that I mean his ability to run by people and jump over them. He certainly had other skills, but that was the skill that set him apart and made him a Hall of Famer and a top 3 receiver of all time. He was a good route runner, but there is no way you'll ever convince me he was the route runner JJ or Diggs or even Adam Thielen is — or even among the top 10 route runners of his own era. That's because it didn't matter. He was so dominant physically that he didn't HAVE to be a precise route runner. Guys like Thielen and JJ (and Carter in his day) have to truly perfect the fine details of their craft because they can't just physically dominate defensive backs like Moss could.
Maybe that's what I appreciate about JJ. He's doing what he's doing without the size, speed or physical gifts of somebody like Randy Moss.
Finally, I saw Randy Moss play in person many times. Make no mistake ... I acknowledge that he was an all-time great player. A game changer. A once-in-a-generation talent who was absolutely electric to watch. But he was not perfect. Neither is JJ. But I do believe when it's all said and done, assuming good health, JJ will be the greatest Viking WR. He's not there yet, and maybe he's not close yet, but I believe he will be. In fact, he may very well end up as the greatest NFL WR of all time.
This is my opinion. It is not more valid than anyone else's. But it's also not less valid. It's what I believe, and I respect those who disagree. I hope you all will afford me the same respect.
I always love reading your takes. I can't say who's right at this point but I'm glad the Vikings have had all three play for them. If JJ can help this team win a championship that will be huge in his favor.
mael·strom
a powerful whirlpool in the sea or a river.
a situation or state of confused movement or violent turmoil.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:27 am
I'm finding out that you sure like looking for and finding the negative. When it comes to best WR of all time the discussion begins and ends with Jerry Rice and Randy Moss. You can compile massive lists in favor of both and the answer is very debatable, but only between those two.
John freaking Taylor I barely remember the name he was so impressive.
Speaking of the 98 game Culpepper got injured before the OT. He couldn't make the throw anymore when Randy Moss got 10 yards behind the Falcons D in OT. Denny should have had the backup in the game. I think it was Brad Johnson at the time. If he had done that I think we may have had our Super Bowl already. Trying to pin the blame on Moss really.
With all due respect, it's difficult to take you seriously now. Culpepper and Johnson weren't even part of the equation in the 98 championship game. As i recall, Brad was injured early on in the season. RANDALL CUNNINGHAM replaced Johnson and took over as starter the rest of the way. C'mon get with the program!!!!! You're debating me and you don't even have your facts straight.
Brain Fart. I knew it was Cunningham. Have you never done anything in your life similar to that? If so I stand ashamed and realize I am not worthy to debate anything like this with you. Am I incorrect that Brad Johnson was the Backup that day? That's the important part of the equation. If you remember that game clearly Cunningham should have not been in the game in that OT. When Moss got 5-10 yards behind the defense in OT the then injured Cunningham couldn't throw the ball far enough to get it to him. That was another play out of the many plays that cost us the win.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:57 am, edited 4 times in total.
CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:19 pm
Moss had one skill? He couldn't catch a football? I don't remember too many drops or balls bouncing off his hands. How about returning punts? Moss made stiff QBs look like HOFer. Salisbury steak was one of them. Once Cousin steps down and we start the recycling of stiffs again JJs numbers will change. He had a chance last year without Kirk and he didn't do much. Give him year after year of the Joe Webb's of the world. It will be different. R Smith said Moss could block.
Allow me to refresh your memory or introduce you to the biggest randy moss drop in Vikings history. It changed the complexion of the game and we all know how that turned out /wince. Then i welcome your rebuttal.
45: 45 to 46:22 if you dare.
Yo Kapp? he was cuttin across the middle on this one. career defining moment in my opinion.
You showing video of Moss dropping one important pass IMO doesn't mean squat. Every receiver drops a pass once in a while. Sometimes that pass will be an important one. You are the first person, in the 24 years since that game, I've ever heard insinuate Moss should take the blame for that loss. I didn't even bother to look for it in that 2.5 hour video. I'll take your word for it. I did see Moss make a great TD because the video had a section called Randall Cunningham Finds Moss for a 30 yard TD. No Section labeled Moss drops a simple TD pass costing the Vikings the game. Moss had great hands and almost never dropped a pass. JJ has great hands also, but I've seen JJ drop passes as well and sometimes important ones. I think just the week before this one he had some bad drops. So my rebuttal is so what.
EDIT: I just noticed you did give a time stamp for the play. I missed it at first because when you asked for my rebuttal I stopped reading at that point. That was not a simple pass to catch. Randy possibly could have made that catch, but it was at the end of his outstretched fingertips. He didn't alligator arm it or anything like that. Anybody could watch that play and realize it wasn't a simple pass to catch. You claiming Moss heard footsteps and dropped it because he was a coward really upsets me. You didn't say those words, but you sure implied them in a prior post about him hearing footsteps. Madden says it would have been a GREAT CATCH. Yes he said he should have caught it, but also said it would have been a great catch. It's just a pass that went incomplete and no blame to be placed on it. I could say if Cunningham had just been 6 inches more accurate with that pass it would have been caught. However, I'm not going to blame Cunningham for being 6 inches off target. I'll leave the blame game to you. That's why you are the only person who I've ever heard place blame on Randy Moss for us losing that game.
We have quite possibly the next WR to rewrite the the record books and yet we sit here debating if he’s better than a WR that played when a lot of rules were different. Comparing apples and oranges for what reason, so someone’s personal opinion feels just? Still trying to make sense of the First messages “on pace to breaks the records”, “3rd best Viking receiver of all time”. Is this a Facebook troll post? Lol
Last edited by allday1991 on Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson
IIsweet wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:06 pm
Funny
Conversation today was just that.... Someone commented that if he is able to continue his pace for 13 1/2 years, he surpasses Jerry Rice as greatest of all time.
Love Moss, love Carter, but this kid is something special. Of course, it is such a passing league now, but he is still very young and to be this good at such an early stage says so much.
Imagine him with a QB who has time in the pocket !!!
IMO Moss was a game changer. He was the fastest guy on the field and teams needed to keep the safeties back or he would score. Just throw it as far as you can dawg and I'll go get it. He made stiff QBs look great. Don't take that as a knock. They are different type of players. I'd take a young Moss with his reach, hands and blazing speed.
You forgot attitude, that alone would make me take jj. Moss second outing with us, one year with bill before the boot. Great player but not the greatest locker room presence.
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson
I don’t see the point in arguing whether an active receiver in his third year is better than the legends. Bottom line, we have had some great receivers that all had different styles of play. Moss was the deep speedster who could blow the top off the defense. Carter was more of a hands clutch guy and JJ does it all. They were/are fun to watch. I have watched the game since the late 50’s and gave up comparing players from different eras a long time ago. I enjoy watching JJ now and adding yet another great receiver to a list that goes back over sixty years. Whenever we started our football fan journey we have all see greatness and are fortunate to have witnessed it.
I think with today’s sports science and training breakthroughs we are witnessing one of the best eras of NFL football, when I refer to watching since the late 50’s football in those days was more of a gouge eyeballs in the trenches game than the scoreboard lighting Ariel display we see now. Different eras and all are interesting in their own way.
Moss IS the greatest WR to play for the Vikings. He ran good routes, could fly on the field and made some of the greatest over the shoulder catches Ive ever seen. But JJ is still playing, and is just getting started.
soflavike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:56 pm
I loved Randy Moss, Cris Carter, Anthony Carter, Sammy White, Ahmad Rashad and many others.
But they're all retired and Justin Jefferson is the best WR in the league right now. I'm enjoying watching him do his thing, his own way, and setting records in the process.
If there's a WR you would trade him for 1:1, let me know.
Depends, If your talking now (No)
If your talking historically (Jerry Rice)
Soooo, how close are we to being the air assault type of offense of the late 90's ?
JJ is an elite type of player like the HOF and top 2-3 GOAT Moss...
Thielen is the route runner with great hands similar to Carter, definitely not Carter though.
Osborn shows glimpses, but not really Reed.
TJ is a huge upgrade, imo, though at the TE position.
Cook and Smith are a wash to me.
Can we be that type of offense? Does KOC want that type of offense?
CharVike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:56 am
IMO Moss was a game changer. He was the fastest guy on the field and teams needed to keep the safeties back or he would score. Just throw it as far as you can dawg and I'll go get it. He made stiff QBs look great. Don't take that as a knock. They are different type of players. I'd take a young Moss with his reach, hands and blazing speed.
You forgot attitude, that alone would make me take jj. Moss second outing with us, one year with bill before the boot. Great player but not the greatest locker room presence.
Your right. Moss was all about him. Once he made his mark he was a drama queen. That 1st game against Dallas he lite that team up. I've never seen a WR do that. Every ball that touched his hands he was gone. Some knock him for being a deep guy only but he caught a short pass that game and turned on the Jets and bye bye. Plus Moss played with bad QBs and that argument was on here awhile ago. Cunningham was never considered a great passer. He wasn't a field general scanning the D and carving them up. He signed the big deal and lasted one Month the following season and was gone. Bum. Everyone was that. Moss made bums into stars. Moss fit back then and JJ fits now.
Chi-Town Vike wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:02 pm
Allow me to refresh your memory or introduce you to the biggest randy moss drop in Vikings history. It changed the complexion of the game and we all know how that turned out /wince. Then i welcome your rebuttal.
45: 45 to 46:22 if you dare.
Yo Kapp? he was cuttin across the middle on this one. career defining moment in my opinion.
You showing video of Moss dropping one important pass IMO doesn't mean squat. Every receiver drops a pass once in a while. Sometimes that pass will be an important one. You are the first person, in the 24 years since that game, I've ever heard insinuate Moss should take the blame for that loss. I didn't even bother to look for it in that 2.5 hour video. I'll take your word for it. I did see Moss make a great TD because the video had a section called Randall Cunningham Finds Moss for a 30 yard TD. No Section labeled Moss drops a simple TD pass costing the Vikings the game. Moss had great hands and almost never dropped a pass. JJ has great hands also, but I've seen JJ drop passes as well and sometimes important ones. I think just the week before this one he had some bad drops. So my rebuttal is so what.
EDIT: I just noticed you did give a time stamp for the play. I missed it at first because when you asked for my rebuttal I stopped reading at that point. That was not a simple pass to catch. Randy possibly could have made that catch, but it was at the end of his outstretched fingertips. He didn't alligator arm it or anything like that. Anybody could watch that play and realize it wasn't a simple pass to catch. You claiming Moss heard footsteps and dropped it because he was a coward really upsets me. You didn't say those words, but you sure implied them in a prior post about him hearing footsteps. Madden says it would have been a GREAT CATCH. Yes he said he should have caught it, but also said it would have been a great catch. It's just a pass that went incomplete and no blame to be placed on it. I could say if Cunningham had just been 6 inches more accurate with that pass it would have been caught. However, I'm not going to blame Cunningham for being 6 inches off target. I'll leave the blame game to you. That's why you are the only person who I've ever heard place blame on Randy Moss for us losing that game.
Yes i did the work and gave a time reference. But, you didn't take the time to hear me out. Eager to jump all over me. It's like this, mosse's best game as a viking was turkey day 1998. his second best was when he pseudo mooned the crowd at lambeau and Joe buck tripped out lol. He was a cancer. Didn't do much in 2 superbowls eaither. He had his time to shine, instead. he came up rather dull. Also i said that he was 1 of the reasons the Vikings lost. Not like the defense could make a stop against the almighty Chris Chandler passing attack lol.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:46 am
You showing video of Moss dropping one important pass IMO doesn't mean squat. Every receiver drops a pass once in a while. Sometimes that pass will be an important one. You are the first person, in the 24 years since that game, I've ever heard insinuate Moss should take the blame for that loss. I didn't even bother to look for it in that 2.5 hour video. I'll take your word for it. I did see Moss make a great TD because the video had a section called Randall Cunningham Finds Moss for a 30 yard TD. No Section labeled Moss drops a simple TD pass costing the Vikings the game. Moss had great hands and almost never dropped a pass. JJ has great hands also, but I've seen JJ drop passes as well and sometimes important ones. I think just the week before this one he had some bad drops. So my rebuttal is so what.
EDIT: I just noticed you did give a time stamp for the play. I missed it at first because when you asked for my rebuttal I stopped reading at that point. That was not a simple pass to catch. Randy possibly could have made that catch, but it was at the end of his outstretched fingertips. He didn't alligator arm it or anything like that. Anybody could watch that play and realize it wasn't a simple pass to catch. You claiming Moss heard footsteps and dropped it because he was a coward really upsets me. You didn't say those words, but you sure implied them in a prior post about him hearing footsteps. Madden says it would have been a GREAT CATCH. Yes he said he should have caught it, but also said it would have been a great catch. It's just a pass that went incomplete and no blame to be placed on it. I could say if Cunningham had just been 6 inches more accurate with that pass it would have been caught. However, I'm not going to blame Cunningham for being 6 inches off target. I'll leave the blame game to you. That's why you are the only person who I've ever heard place blame on Randy Moss for us losing that game.
Yes i did the work and gave a time reference. But, you didn't take the time to hear me out. Eager to jump all over me. It's like this, mosse's best game as a viking was turkey day 1998. his second best was when he pseudo mooned the crowd at lambeau and Joe buck tripped out lol. He was a cancer. Didn't do much in 2 superbowls eaither. He had his time to shine, instead. he came up rather dull. Also i said that he was 1 of the reasons the Vikings lost. Not like the defense could make a stop against the almighty Chris Chandler passing attack lol.
Randy Moss a cancer to the Vikings. One of the biggest loads of Crap I've ever heard. You are still the only person I have ever heard that says Randy was even a tiny part of the problem of us losing that Eagles game. He was very good in that game like he always was. You calling a play where a pass that was barely within the reach of this fingertips dropping a "SIMPLE" pass. A pass that Madden said would have been a GREAT CATCH. Saying he dropped it because he was a coward hearing footsteps. You need to apologize for those remarks.
If we dont fix our Oline fast, I dont think JJ will get his 2k yards. Its harder to throw and catch the ball outside in the winter outdoors. The Bears and Packers games are going to be tough at the end of the season for an indoor team.
