OTA's Thread

[VikingsVictorious]

I think there are so many myths created about Kirk that it really bothers me. Check down Charlie for example is such BS. I've read how he's afraid to take a hit which has clearly been debunked here. He's only good when everything is perfect. Give that one a rest with our line things are almost never perfect.

He could improve by getting bigger, stronger, and faster. Than his running game would be improved. Extending plays with clever movement/scrambling would be an improvement. I'll grant that he could be better at pulling a great play out of his a.. like Wilson and Rodgers do. He's super accurate, but he could get more accurate. He's really solid to great in most aspects of QB play.

Ok, I think that at least gives us something to work with, and somewhere for the conversation to go. Extending plays/scrambling/and pulling a great play out of his backside would all be maybe categorized as 'improvisation'. I think that's another way of saying Kirk doesn't produce many good outcomes when plays go off schedule--he doesn't generally improvise well. That's one of the common criticisms you mention above, and it seems that in principle we all agree on that now, at least to some degree.

Another common criticism of Kirk is lack of composure. Kirk has some real blonde, dingy moments in pressure situations on his reel. We could set aside the other possible dimensions of this and just limit it to the impact it might have in improvising. It might be a factor there.

If we can accept that Kirk could be better at improvising, we can see how that other common criticism--that Kirk doesn't generally throw into contested situations, or throw until he sees it open--could be a compounding problem. Being able to minimize bad plays, or convert on a slightly higher percentage of critical downs, perhaps requires slightly better ability at one or the other of those two skills, but they are both areas where Kirk has a little bit of room to improve. The net effect is too many short, empty possessions and fewer victories. One or two conversions in those areas is often the difference between winning and losing, so while it's not always a glaring deficiency in QB play, it is, perhaps, an invisible deficiency--one that doesn't show up in the box scores, one that most fans cannot see--which is actually fairly significant when it comes to stringing together victories.

I updated my post before you made this reply and the update included the word improvisation. I disagree with your lack of composure criticism. I think Kirk throws into contested situations just right. Not too little and not too much.

[CharVike]

I'm not saying 'he holds the ball too long'. I'm saying he doesn't trust it until he sees it, and doesn't throw with the level of anticipation that top notch NFL QBs throw it with. In this era, that doesn't get him killed like it would have in the past, and it probably reduces his interception number, but it probably leads to more stalled drives, fumbles, and missed opportunities too.

It sounds to me like you're calling him a coward. Too afraid to throw the pass if there's any chance of something going wrong. He's actually very courageous holding the ball just the right amount of time to make the play. He is making the right choice on how long to hold the ball. He is making the right call on when to make the pass and when not to. His anticipation is just fine. The numbers make that perfectly clear.

Others have said he's a coward and I don't think any of these players are cowards. The guy suites it up week in and week out. Our OL is not very good and I'll give Kewsi the benefit of doubt that he created a top 10 OL this off season. Last year against the Browns Hill gave up 10 pressures and Olli gave up 8 and Clowney abused O'neil all day. Against the good defensive fronts is when it matters. That's when you need to stand up. Nobody cares if you dominate a bad defensive front. Those teams won't be around.
On this day Cousins screwed up also. On at least one play, Cousins creates the pressure himself by hesitating in the pocket and missing a wide-open receiver on third-and-3. Cousins stares right at an uncovered Osborn but hesitates to throw it for just long enough for the pocket to collapse. It resulted in a Takkarist McKinley sack. I've seen posters claim that OL holding calls don't impact a game. I call BS on that. Here's an example. A huge gain for Justin Jefferson for 37 yards, but it was called back for holding. This is from https://theathletic.com/2868601/2021/10 ... to-browns/.

[fiestavike]

Ok, I think that at least gives us something to work with, and somewhere for the conversation to go. Extending plays/scrambling/and pulling a great play out of his backside would all be maybe categorized as 'improvisation'. I think that's another way of saying Kirk doesn't produce many good outcomes when plays go off schedule--he doesn't generally improvise well. That's one of the common criticisms you mention above, and it seems that in principle we all agree on that now, at least to some degree.

Another common criticism of Kirk is lack of composure. Kirk has some real blonde, dingy moments in pressure situations on his reel. We could set aside the other possible dimensions of this and just limit it to the impact it might have in improvising. It might be a factor there.

If we can accept that Kirk could be better at improvising, we can see how that other common criticism--that Kirk doesn't generally throw into contested situations, or throw until he sees it open--could be a compounding problem. Being able to minimize bad plays, or convert on a slightly higher percentage of critical downs, perhaps requires slightly better ability at one or the other of those two skills, but they are both areas where Kirk has a little bit of room to improve. The net effect is too many short, empty possessions and fewer victories. One or two conversions in those areas is often the difference between winning and losing, so while it's not always a glaring deficiency in QB play, it is, perhaps, an invisible deficiency--one that doesn't show up in the box scores, one that most fans cannot see--which is actually fairly significant when it comes to stringing together victories.

I updated my post before you made this reply and the update included the word improvisation. I disagree with your lack of composure criticism. I think Kirk throws into contested situations just right. Not too little and not too much.

We'll set aside the composure criticism and write those plays off as outliers, not indicative of Kirk's game.

Yes, perhaps he throws into contested situations just the right amount, and perhaps he is wise to reduce risky passes by waiting until the WR is visibly open, BUT, that makes his lack of improvisation all the more of an issue, since he is pretty conservative with regard to anticipation/contested situations. When a player doesn't come open in the time allotted AND he can't improvise, those situations often result in a punt. Is that fair?

[fiestavike]

It sounds to me like you're calling him a coward. Too afraid to throw the pass if there's any chance of something going wrong.

What I am saying is that he is very risk averse. He is quite aggressive once he sees the target is open and he throws a great ball. Clearly he is doing some things right. Undoubtedly, he has his strengths, which I have never denied, and even being a little slow to pull the trigger when in doubt could be a strength depending on the circumstance. All I'm trying to point out is that because we have acknowledged that improvising isn't Kirk's strength, that lack of improvisation becomes a bigger negative than it would be for another QB who might excel in throwing with anticipation. Likewise, Kirk's lack of relative skill in throwing with anticipation becomes a net negative, because he doesn't have the improvisational skills to have a reliable plan B. And so these issues compound one another. That's why I'm saying these two relative weaknesses, even if not glaring, are problematic as a pairing.

At a certain point the clock hits 0. That can be mitigated by getting it out quickly, or by movement and improvisation, but not being elite at either of those skills equates to a lot of empty possessions and diminishes Kirk's ability to get to the things he does extremely well. I suspect that we'll see Kirk given a lot of one read plays; bubble screens Dalvin Cook, quick passes to motion WRs, Scheming particular routes open. Getting some first down conversions by scheming playmakers into space will reduce the impact of what Kirk doesn't do as well as he might, help the Vikings keep possession, and can also help slow down a pass rush.

[VikingsVictorious]

I updated my post before you made this reply and the update included the word improvisation. I disagree with your lack of composure criticism. I think Kirk throws into contested situations just right. Not too little and not too much.

We'll set aside the composure criticism and write those plays off as outliers, not indicative of Kirk's game.

Yes, perhaps he throws into contested situations just the right amount, and perhaps he is wise to reduce risky passes by waiting until the WR is visibly open, BUT, that makes his lack of improvisation all the more of an issue, since he is pretty conservative with regard to anticipation/contested situations. When a player doesn't come open in the time allotted AND he can't improvise, those situations often result in a punt. Is that fair?

I hate punting in general. Possessions are precious and intentionally giving the ball to your opponent should be done very little. If I were coaching I would go for it most of the time on 4th and 5. Take a shot at keeping the ball with the risk of giving them better field position. Analytics support punting WAY less than NFL coaches do.

Rant aside I would be more risky on a play if I knew not converting would lead to a punt. We've come to some agreement that Kirk's biggest weakness is lack of improvisational skill. I'd disagree with his having to see the receiver visibly open before throwing. Timing throws to a location are part of his game pretty much like any other QB.

[IIsweet]

So look ok. How are OTA's going ???
Isn't that the thread? Living out of Minnesota doesn't provide any Vikings news. Curious as to who's doing well and any rookie surprises?

[VikingsVictorious]

So look ok. How are OTA's going ???
Isn't that the thread? Living out of Minnesota doesn't provide any Vikings news. Curious as to who's doing well and any rookie surprises?

I post some videos from time to time. So far the rookies haven't been given the time of day. Making them earn it. In the Rookie Minicamp Luigi Vilain stood out from all reports. If you want to find them yourself just search YouTube for Vikings Entertainment Network or Viking's OTA's. The Cousins discussions were fueled by OTA interviews he gave.

[fiestavike]

So look ok. How are OTA's going ???
Isn't that the thread? Living out of Minnesota doesn't provide any Vikings news. Curious as to who's doing well and any rookie surprises?

I post some videos from time to time. So far the rookies haven't been given the time of day. Making them earn it. In the Rookie Minicamp Luigi Vilain stood out from all reports. If you want to find them yourself just search YouTube for Vikings Entertainment Network or Viking's OTA's. The Cousins discussions were fueled by OTA interviews he gave.

I think it was one of the better exchanges we've had on Cousins. People keep painting others into polarized corners. Like any other player, KC has strengths and weaknesses. Acknowledging the weaknesses doesn't negate the strengths. Acknowledging the strengths doesn't negate the weaknesses. What we should be debating is really a pretty small thing, not all or nothing. It's not whether Kirk sucks or Kirk is great, it's just whether the balance of his strengths and weaknesses add up to good enough QB play to seriously and perennially compete for a championship. Secondarily, whatever his weaknesses, how can they be mitigated in order to put him and the team in the best position to consistently execute on offense.

[CharVike]

ISM is being looked at as a punt returner. Year 2 is big for these players. Chris Reed is the starting RG at this point.
“We’ve got a lot of time before we actually decide as far as who’s starting day one, game one, against the Green Bay Packers, but we like the group that we have," said offensive coordinator Wes Phillips. "We like that there’s a pool of talent there, and a lot of guys who have a lot of different skill sets that we can kind of just throw ‘em out there and see how they progress, keep coaching ‘em, and kind of see who rises to the top."
Just throw 'em out there sounds a little strange.

[VikingsVictorious]

ISM is being looked at as a punt returner. Year 2 is big for these players. Chris Reed is the starting RG at this point.
“We’ve got a lot of time before we actually decide as far as who’s starting day one, game one, against the Green Bay Packers, but we like the group that we have," said offensive coordinator Wes Phillips. "We like that there’s a pool of talent there, and a lot of guys who have a lot of different skill sets that we can kind of just throw ‘em out there and see how they progress, keep coaching ‘em, and kind of see who rises to the top."
Just throw 'em out there sounds a little strange.

Most people believed we drafted Osborn for his PR skills and in college he was incredible at those. For some reason he has had no success in the NFL as a PR, but has turned into a solid #3 WR. Nailor might be a good PR.

[CharVike]

ISM is being looked at as a punt returner. Year 2 is big for these players. Chris Reed is the starting RG at this point.
“We’ve got a lot of time before we actually decide as far as who’s starting day one, game one, against the Green Bay Packers, but we like the group that we have," said offensive coordinator Wes Phillips. "We like that there’s a pool of talent there, and a lot of guys who have a lot of different skill sets that we can kind of just throw ‘em out there and see how they progress, keep coaching ‘em, and kind of see who rises to the top."
Just throw 'em out there sounds a little strange.

Most people believed we drafted Osborn for his PR skills and in college he was incredible at those. For some reason he has had no success in the NFL as a PR, but has turned into a solid #3 WR. Nailor might be a good PR.

Osborn was a good return man in college. He had some fumbles and who knows what that does to a player. I'm sure it's different based on the player. Some bounce back some don't. They brought that Dee Dee guy in last year. ISM is a player we need to continue his development. Based on history Adam will miss time. I don't see that changing. ISM stepped in as a rookie which is great for a later WR pick. He'll face the same challenge we have faced on offense for a long time in football years. A new system which means all the terminology will change. Some will pick it up quickly others it will take time. I expect ISM to make that 2nd year surge. He does have speed. He needs to prove he has the ball skills for a punt at the pro level. Nailor did some returning in college. He should be in the mix.

[CharVike]

DeDe Westbrook is back in today for a work out.

[VikingsVictorious]

Kirk Cousins 2021 highlight reel so basically all the big passing plays and TDs with one real long run. Definitely a number of passes made when the receiver was pretty well defended. Of course this is just highlights so you won't see any bad plays. Fun to watch.

[StumpHunter]

It is pretty funny how all the reports out of OTAs were how good Bisi looked and then OTAs end and the team's first moves are to replace him. First they bring in Dede and now they have signed Albert Wilson:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... year-deal/

[Pondering Her Percy]

It is pretty funny how all the reports out of OTAs were how good Bisi looked and then OTAs end and the team's first moves are to replace him. First they bring in Dede and now they have signed Albert Wilson:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... year-deal/

Wilson could simply be a camp body. I'm far from sold he will make the final 53. As for Bisi, I'm pretty "meh" on him anyways. I'd rather have ISM as the #4 over Bisi. I think he has a much higher ceiling.