Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
When Spielman got 7th round picks they were usually a throw in deals for 5th and 6th round picks. Spielman never trade a first or second round pick for 6th or 7th round picks. As you said it's a myth.
The statement that the 7ths he got were all comp picks is a myth too. FWIW. It's both. He acquired some via trade (even if a throw in, that's how they got the picks) and some via comp picks.
Yes, possibly a semantics argument. It's fact though.
Foreman44 wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 5:36 am
I just read a article about this draft looking so much like past drafts of R.S.
Basically it said that our GM is still using R.S. draft specialists.. Those he wouldn’t change till after the draft.....
I can see similarities, but also some differences.
Did he trade down (and up) a fair bit? yes. But we didn't stockpile 7th round picks like Rick. We also didn't see complete head scratchers like Chaz Surrat, the German WR, etc. Lastly, it looks like there was an overriding philosophy placed on speed, particularly 10 yard splits and measures of explosiveness. Opting for Cine and Booth instead of Hamilton / McDuffie speaks to this. For the latter, his short arms and likelihood of playing slot had me hesitant.
I think the German WR was worth taking a shot on due to his size speed ratio being insanely good. Not much different from what the pukers did this year drafting Christian "I drop Passes" Watson. It was a long shot, but what if it did hit? We drafted Surrat right where he was on the big boards.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Wed May 04, 2022 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 pm
When Spielman got 7th round picks they were usually a throw in deals for 5th and 6th round picks. Spielman never trade a first or second round pick for 6th or 7th round picks. As you said it's a myth.
The statement that the 7ths he got were all comp picks is a myth too. FWIW. It's both. He acquired some via trade (even if a throw in, that's how they got the picks) and some via comp picks.
Yes, possibly a semantics argument. It's fact though.
The myth grew out of a little slice of truth. Spielman did acquire a lot of 6th and 7th round picks. It just grew into him trading our first round pick and getting back the entire 7th round.
The statement that the 7ths he got were all comp picks is a myth too. FWIW. It's both. He acquired some via trade (even if a throw in, that's how they got the picks) and some via comp picks.
Yes, possibly a semantics argument. It's fact though.
The myth grew out of a little slice of truth. Spielman did acquire a lot of 6th and 7th round picks. It just grew into him trading our first round pick and getting back the entire 7th round.
For sure, he did not trade a 1st or 2nd for a handful of 7ths. Agreed, that would be a myth. : )
Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
Eh......it isn't a myth that we acquired 7ths via trade.
Since 1995, they have been awarded EIGHT 7th round comp picks. (total of above numbers)
Since 1995, they have made 49 7th round picks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm
Of which 27 we would have had just due to 1 per round for each team. Plus the 8 above. 35 via natural draft and comp picks. 14 acquired via other methods. That's more than the comp picks awarded. Almost double.
Since 2005, they have made 33 7th round picks, of which 17 would have been natural picks. We were not comped an additional 16 7th rounders during RS' time (the difference).
RS liked to get his 7th round picks. I understand some of them came via comp. He also traded for plenty. It was both him, and comp picks. I am sure a deeper dive into each transaction would have more insight that this 30000 ft fly over. IE, how the 7th was acquired in each specific trade? I am sure some a throw ins, I hope. Ha. At work and can't at this time.
Disclaimer, on phone and could have typed something wrong. Think numbers are correct.
We get compensatory picks when players leave. Isn't it concerning that we always got late rd picks and also the fewest ? The players were not that great. Better than me, but at the NFL level, not spectacular.
So was it bad coaching or bad drafting that we never get much compensation for the development of our players ???
I think it was a combination and thus why we have a new GM and a new Coaching staff.
I am hoping that Kwesi takes a hard look at our Scouts. Maybe they are good? Maybe not? I have no idea !
Btw, this draft was about speed, length, and aggressiveness. It was also about getting replacements for older players and pending FA.
Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
Eh......it isn't a myth that we acquired 7ths via trade.
Since 1995, they have been awarded EIGHT 7th round comp picks. (total of above numbers)
Since 1995, they have made 49 7th round picks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm
Of which 27 we would have had just due to 1 per round for each team. Plus the 8 above. 35 via natural draft and comp picks. 14 acquired via other methods. That's more than the comp picks awarded. Almost double.
Since 2005, they have made 33 7th round picks. Including 2020 and 2019 when we picked 4 each season. That's 8 total in two years. In 2020 and 2019 we were awarded a total of 4 (2 in 2019, and 2 in 2020).
RS liked to get his 7th round picks. I understand some of them came via comp. He also traded for plenty. It was both him, and comp picks. I am sure a deeper dive into each transaction would have more insight that this 30000 ft fly over. At work and can't at this time.
Disclaimer, on phone and could have typed something wrong. Think numbers are correct.
And as I said before, any time he did get one in a deal, it was a throw in pick. For example, trading Harvin. He gets what he wants (a 1st round pick and 3rd) and has them throw in a 7th. Maximizing his value. The Seahawks were doing that deal regardless, so why not ask them for one more pick. I spoke on this before, I do the same damn thing in fantasy football. I get what I want from the person and then say "throw in an 8th round pick and we got a deal". 99.9% of the time the person still makes the deal. So why not squeeze out everything you can?
Or another example, 2017 trade down from 104 to 108 and gain a 7th. It's 4 spots in the middle of the 4th round (where there's probably a plethora of players you'd take a chance on at that point), moving down 4 spots doesnt do anything to hurt you. In 2019 you go from 92 down to 93 and gain a 7th. Again, I'd make the trade too. Squeeze any penny out you can.
His 7th round picks that were acquired via trade were from minor trade downs or throw ins after he got the compensation he wanted. Someone enlighten me why that was a problem? Why is that one of the biggest things Vikings fans rip on him for?
And I was thinking this the other day.... I find it funny that a lot of fans out there that hated Spielman for all these reasons are praising Kwesi for this draft. If this was a Rick Spielman draft, many would be in an uproar. Especially given that we couldnt even pull in a first round pick in 2023 in that Lions deal and didnt get near the value he should have.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
I can see similarities, but also some differences.
Did he trade down (and up) a fair bit? yes. But we didn't stockpile 7th round picks like Rick. We also didn't see complete head scratchers like Chaz Surrat, the German WR, etc. Lastly, it looks like there was an overriding philosophy placed on speed, particularly 10 yard splits and measures of explosiveness. Opting for Cine and Booth instead of Hamilton / McDuffie speaks to this. For the latter, his short arms and likelihood of playing slot had me hesitant.
I think the German WR was worth taking a shot on due to his size speed ratio being insanely good. It was a long shot, but what if it did hit? We drafted Surrat right where he was on the big boards.
Surrat had played LB for one year, having transitioned from QB. There were better LBs available at that pick. Böhringer was another Rick special, super long shot, trying to look like the smartest guy in the room kind of pick.
Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
When Spielman got 7th round picks they were usually a throw in deals for 5th and 6th round picks. Spielman never trade a first or second round pick for 6th or 7th round picks. As you said it's a myth.
Exactly! And yes I just mentioned that above. They were throw in picks. Who cares if we have a bunch of them? They were throw ins and increases our chances of hitting on some sort of contributor.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 12:30 pm
The myth grew out of a little slice of truth. Spielman did acquire a lot of 6th and 7th round picks. It just grew into him trading our first round pick and getting back the entire 7th round.
For sure, he did not trade a 1st or 2nd for a handful of 7ths. Agreed, that would be a myth. : )
Since 1995, they have been awarded EIGHT 7th round comp picks. (total of above numbers)
Since 1995, they have made 49 7th round picks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm
Of which 27 we would have had just due to 1 per round for each team. Plus the 8 above. 35 via natural draft and comp picks. 14 acquired via other methods. That's more than the comp picks awarded. Almost double.
Since 2005, they have made 33 7th round picks. Including 2020 and 2019 when we picked 4 each season. That's 8 total in two years. In 2020 and 2019 we were awarded a total of 4 (2 in 2019, and 2 in 2020).
RS liked to get his 7th round picks. I understand some of them came via comp. He also traded for plenty. It was both him, and comp picks. I am sure a deeper dive into each transaction would have more insight that this 30000 ft fly over. At work and can't at this time.
Disclaimer, on phone and could have typed something wrong. Think numbers are correct.
And as I said before, any time he did get one in a deal, it was a throw in pick. For example, trading Harvin. He gets what he wants (a 1st round pick and 3rd) and has them throw in a 7th. Maximizing his value. The Seahawks were doing that deal regardless, so why not ask them for one more pick. I spoke on this before, I do the same damn thing in fantasy football. I get what I want from the person and then say "throw in an 8th round pick and we got a deal". 99.9% of the time the person still makes the deal. So why not squeeze out everything you can?
Or another example, 2017 trade down from 104 to 108 and gain a 7th. It's 4 spots in the middle of the 4th round (where there's probably a plethora of players you'd take a chance on at that point), moving down 4 spots doesnt do anything to hurt you. In 2019 you go from 92 down to 93 and gain a 7th. Again, I'd make the trade too. Squeeze any penny out you can.
His 7th round picks that were acquired via trade were from minor trade downs or throw ins after he got the compensation he wanted. Someone enlighten me why that was a problem? Why is that one of the biggest things Vikings fans rip on him for?
And I was thinking this the other day.... I find it funny that a lot of fans out there that hated Spielman for all these reasons are praising Kwesi for this draft. If this was a Rick Spielman draft, many would be in an uproar. Especially given that we couldnt even pull in a first round pick in 2023 in that Lions deal and didnt get near the value he should have.
I'm also not able to do the digging currently due to work, but I feel confident that the date will show that he liked to trade out of the mid rounds (3rd to 6th) down to 7th an awful lot. He would do this even when there were great players on the board at positions of need.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 12:28 pm
I think the German WR was worth taking a shot on due to his size speed ratio being insanely good. It was a long shot, but what if it did hit? We drafted Surrat right where he was on the big boards.
Surrat had played LB for one year, having transitioned from QB. There were better LBs available at that pick. Böhringer was another Rick special, super long shot, trying to look like the smartest guy in the room kind of pick.
Surrat in that one year of playing LB was the ACC defensive player of the year. He was IIRC ranked in the top 100 on most of the draft charts. He wasn't what would be called a reach. Boehringer was selected with a 6th round pick IIRC. Sure he was a long shot, but wasn't he worth taking that long shot on?
Since 1995, they have been awarded EIGHT 7th round comp picks. (total of above numbers)
Since 1995, they have made 49 7th round picks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm
Of which 27 we would have had just due to 1 per round for each team. Plus the 8 above. 35 via natural draft and comp picks. 14 acquired via other methods. That's more than the comp picks awarded. Almost double.
Since 2005, they have made 33 7th round picks. Including 2020 and 2019 when we picked 4 each season. That's 8 total in two years. In 2020 and 2019 we were awarded a total of 4 (2 in 2019, and 2 in 2020).
RS liked to get his 7th round picks. I understand some of them came via comp. He also traded for plenty. It was both him, and comp picks. I am sure a deeper dive into each transaction would have more insight that this 30000 ft fly over. At work and can't at this time.
Disclaimer, on phone and could have typed something wrong. Think numbers are correct.
And as I said before, any time he did get one in a deal, it was a throw in pick. For example, trading Harvin. He gets what he wants (a 1st round pick and 3rd) and has them throw in a 7th. Maximizing his value. The Seahawks were doing that deal regardless, so why not ask them for one more pick. I spoke on this before, I do the same damn thing in fantasy football. I get what I want from the person and then say "throw in an 8th round pick and we got a deal". 99.9% of the time the person still makes the deal. So why not squeeze out everything you can?
Or another example, 2017 trade down from 104 to 108 and gain a 7th. It's 4 spots in the middle of the 4th round (where there's probably a plethora of players you'd take a chance on at that point), moving down 4 spots doesnt do anything to hurt you. In 2019 you go from 92 down to 93 and gain a 7th. Again, I'd make the trade too. Squeeze any penny out you can.
His 7th round picks that were acquired via trade were from minor trade downs or throw ins after he got the compensation he wanted. Someone enlighten me why that was a problem? Why is that one of the biggest things Vikings fans rip on him for?
And I was thinking this the other day.... I find it funny that a lot of fans out there that hated Spielman for all these reasons are praising Kwesi for this draft. If this was a Rick Spielman draft, many would be in an uproar. Especially given that we couldnt even pull in a first round pick in 2023 in that Lions deal and didnt get near the value he should have.
I can't speak to others. I rip RS for not having conviction / vision (imo) of what he wanted to target so he threw as much ___ against the wall to see what would stick. I don't agree with that method, I understand the logic used though.
Surrat had played LB for one year, having transitioned from QB. There were better LBs available at that pick. Böhringer was another Rick special, super long shot, trying to look like the smartest guy in the room kind of pick.
Surrat in that one year of playing LB was the ACC defensive player of the year. He was IIRC ranked in the top 100 on most of the draft charts. He wasn't what would be called a reach. Boehringer was selected with a 6th round pick IIRC. Sure he was a long shot, but wasn't he worth taking that long shot on?
I think if KOC and KAM felt confident in Surrat, they wouldn't have drafted Asamoah. They are strangely similar prospects: undersized, not known to be strong tacklers, pretty fast, with upside. But you're right, I read up on Surrat's draft profiles and he was projected to go in the 3rd, which is where we took him. Böhringer (get the umlaut already man!) was a wasted pick.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 12:42 pm
Surrat in that one year of playing LB was the ACC defensive player of the year. He was IIRC ranked in the top 100 on most of the draft charts. He wasn't what would be called a reach. Boehringer was selected with a 6th round pick IIRC. Sure he was a long shot, but wasn't he worth taking that long shot on?
I think if KOC and KAM felt confident in Surrat, they wouldn't have drafted Asamoah. They are strangely similar prospects: undersized, not known to be strong tacklers, pretty fast, with upside. But you're right, I read up on Surrat's draft profiles and he was projected to go in the 3rd, which is where we took him. Böhringer (get the umlaut already man!) was a wasted pick.
Interesting pattern among KAM's picks:
Unfortunately it doesn't look good for Surrat at this time. I admit to liking the pick when we made it. I don't know how to do umlauts and Boehringer was worth a 6th round flyer, but did turn out to be a wasted pick. KAM definitely went for speed.
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 8:00 am
The Vikings do not know more than the grand jury that indicted Ingram, the DA that charged him and the detectives that brought this case to the DA and I have yet to hear a good explanation of how a case got that far if it was all completely fabricated. Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.
Cook and Lewis's cases are very different, with Cook not even being charged with anything and Lewis, who was at least an accomplice to murder getting off because he had a lot of money and could afford a good attorney. I feel very comfortable calling him a murderer, btw and do pretty much every time I talk about him.
Because every accusation of sexual assault is taken seriously but especially in the heat of the MeToo movement that was going on at the time. The fact that it was dropped in 2018, when everybody was being (rightfully) forced to take these kinds of charges very seriously, makes me think there was no case.
There was no settlement paid and all charges were dropped. There's no reason to believe after waiting 3-4 years to come forward, with women coming forward and having major victories against powerful men that committed those types of crimes all over the country, that they were too afraid or ashamed to testify.
Without knowing anything about the case, you're making accusations based on nothing. Just because he doesn't want to go into what happened doesn't make him guilty.
If you talked to a victim of sexual assault who did come forward, you would know that the victims are absolutely grilled by detectives, psychologist and the DA before any charges are even filed. It is an awful process where detectives go in assuming the woman is lying, regardless of what you think the impact MeToo had on the justice system. The system is incredibly hard on victims, intentionally, with the premise that it weeds out the women who are lying, but with the reality that rapist end up getting away with their crimes because the victims finally just cave in and want the pain of having to relive the assault go away. If a crime of this level made it all the way past a grand jury, something that not even Watson's dozens of accusers could get past, it means the guy was guilty the vast majority of times. That is with adults, and with children it is almost unheard of for a young person like that to be able to lie to the point that a DA would take it the case this far.
So no, #MeToo and Kwesi saying "he looked into it" isn't good enough for me and the only reason it is for some people is because they don't want to believe their team intentionally drafted a rapist.
