The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

[J. Kapp 11]

Thought I'd start a thread about what we think will shake out now that the Vikings have missed the playoffs.

Some thoughts of mine.

The Wilfs say they want to be in the playoff picture.
Zimmer and Company have now missed the playoffs the past two years and three of the last four. Logic would tell us that Zimmer's time is up. Not sure logic applies to the Vikings, but one can hope.

Mike Zimmer's comments about Kellen Mond seem to indicate Zimmer is not long for his job.
Kellen Mond was one of the Vikings third round draft picks. It's the highest a quarterback has been taken by Minnesota since Teddy Bridgewater, which would make a person think that both Zimmer and Rick Spielman saw value in him.

However, here's Zimmer after the Green Bay game.

Q: Do you think you want to get a look at Mond next week?
ZIMMER: Not particularly.
Q: Mike, why don't you want to see him?
ZIMMER: I see him every day.

Ouch. Talk about throwing the kid under the bus. This says one of three things to me.

1. He wasn't a fan of the draft choice in the first place.
2. He wanted to draft him but has since soured on Mond.
3. He knows he's coaching his last game, and he's not going down with a rookie.

I'm going with Door No. 3. What do you all think? Did I miss a possibility?

It's not fun watching an immobile backup quarterback.
I mean, it's bad enough watching an immobile STARTING quarterback.

Now don't get me wrong. Some backups are fun to watch. I'm thinking of guys like Colt McCoy or Tyler Huntley. They may crash and burn, but at least they'll entertain you running around while they're doing it.

Guys like Sean Mannion simply are no fun to watch. Yes, he's got a cannon for an arm. So what? He's quite possibly the slowest, least mobile quarterback I've ever seen, and his windup takes longer than Whitey Ford (baseball reference for those of a certain age or older). For Mike Zimmer to think THAT guy gave the Vikings the best chance to win shows you either that Zimmer is off his rocker or that the Vikings have the least quarterback depth in the history of the league. I'll go with both.

That was a brutal, brutal watch last night against Green Bay. I continued watching the game in the second half last night for the sole purpose of seeing Kellen Mond. Zimmer gave us three plays, and then only when Mannion had a hand cramp (?). You can't make this stuff up.

I wish the Wilfs would tell Zimmer TODAY that Sunday is his last game.
That way they could begin interviewing candidates immediately. Remember, you don't have to fire your coach to interview early. You just have to tell him he's going to be terminated. Let's get this thing going. There are some great candidates out there.

I believe Rick Spielman will be retained.
Two reasons. First, if you fire Spielman, then you have to find his replacement before you find a head coach. Well, you don't HAVE to, but you are certainly better off if your new GM hires the coach of HIS choice.

Second, the Wilfs like Spielman.

I think there is a good chance they'll bump him up to a President role, however, and let him hire a new GM. Or they might just keep him where he is and tell him to fire Zimmer. I don't know. I just get the feeling that Rick will survive this.

We DO NOT have to be a bad (think Detroit) team before we're good again.
Kirk Cousins can be traded. I guarantee you there are teams that will take him and that contract. I've seen all kinds of trades bandied about by the talking heads. One has him going to Pittsburgh for a first and a third. Look, if there's one thing that amazingly good stats will buy you, it's the ability to convince quarterback-starved teams that fool's gold is real.

We have a ton of guys who carry big cap hits this year that can be released. Pierce, Barr, Peterson, Richardson, Vigil, Woods and others can all be shown the door. There's even talk of trading Adam Thielen and his $17 million cap hit, although trading Thielen doesn't exactly jive with winning again quickly (plus I'd literally cry of they traded AT).

The playoffs wouldn't necessarily be in the picture if a lot of those guys were let go, but then again the playoffs haven't exactly been in the picture WITH those guys.

There is a talent base here. You've got three pretty good O-linemen in O'Neill, Cleveland and Darrisaw. You've got a top-3 wideout in Justin Jefferson. You've got Irv Smith returning, and you get to pair him with a guy in Tyler Conklin who has broken out to the tune of 59 receptions with a game yet to play (a number that Kyle Rudolph and his $7 million cap hit hasn't seen since 2018). Obviously you've still got Dalvin Cook, and you've got another breakout player in KJ Osborn (49 receptions, 6 TDs), so the makings of a good offense are still in place.

The defense may be another story. You're kinda stuck with Tomlinson, and Kendricks is still very solid. Hunter could be back, and Cam Bynum has potential at safety. Armon Watts is a good depth piece, as is James Lynch. Cameron Dantzler could still pan out. The cupboard isn't bare on defense, but it's not exactly stocked, either.

Anyway, if the Vikings can dump salary that isn't producing and free up some cap dollars, they could start to contend again by '23.

**********************

All right. The conversation has begun. What say you?

[StumpHunter]

The hand cramp thing was BS.

I was at the game and the way Mond would warm up between quarters he acted like he thought he was going in at any moment.

Mond got in when the game got out of hand, almost threw a pick six, and got benched. The cramps is just an excuse to save face.

[Maelstrom88]

I think Rick survives. I also don't think it would be too much of a hindrance if they hired a new GM and were late to the game if hiring a new coach. There are a lot of people out there who would make a great HC.

I would like to see them get rid of a lot of players including Kirk and start Mond next year. Hire an offensive HC and draft another QB somewhere next draft. If neither of them are any good then you should be in prime position to draft one high in 2023. Keep taking swings until you get the franchise guy. You want win anything without that piece in place.

[VikingLord]

The Wilfs say they want to be in the playoff picture.
Zimmer and Company have now missed the playoffs the past two years and three of the last four. Logic would tell us that Zimmer's time is up. Not sure logic applies to the Vikings, but one can hope.

I'll believe that when I see them put their proverbial money where their mouths are.

So far, they've been very patient with the status quo at GM, head coach and QB despite very little indication the team as constituted at those positions is capable of dethroning what is becoming the perennially division-winning Packers.

Mike Zimmer's comments about Kellen Mond seem to indicate Zimmer is not long for his job.
Kellen Mond was one of the Vikings third round draft picks. It's the highest a quarterback has been taken by Minnesota since Teddy Bridgewater, which would make a person think that both Zimmer and Rick Spielman saw value in him.

However, here's Zimmer after the Green Bay game.

Q: Do you think you want to get a look at Mond next week?
ZIMMER: Not particularly.
Q: Mike, why don't you want to see him?
ZIMMER: I see him every day.

Ouch. Talk about throwing the kid under the bus.

I don't think he was throwing him under the bus. I think he was being trite and facetious in the face of what he likely considered an annoying question, one that suggests he doesn't know what he's doing when determining who will start at QB for his team.

In all likelihood, Zimmer probably feels Mannion has paid his dues and deserves a chance. I suspect this is the major reason why Zimmer is so reluctant to start rookies in general. He has a sense of responsibility to established players that I believe overrides his ability to be objective about who gives him the best chance to win. As a result, he starts Mannion over Mond not because Mannion improves his chances of winning, but because Mannion has put in the work and has been around longer. Even if Mond had put in the work and looked better in practices I suspect Zimmer would still give Mannion his shot because in Zimmer's mind Mannion has earned that more than Mond has.

It's not fun watching an immobile backup quarterback.
I mean, it's bad enough watching an immobile STARTING quarterback.

Now don't get me wrong. Some backups are fun to watch. I'm thinking of guys like Colt McCoy or Tyler Huntley. They may crash and burn, but at least they'll entertain you running around while they're doing it.

I seem to recall you expressing a strong desire for the Vikings to try to trade for Deshaun Watson due to his arm, ability to improvise on the run, and general escapability and mobility.

There is a QB named Malik Willis coming out this year who looks like a Watson clone.

Because this isn't considered a strong QB class in general and Willis has some rough edges, its extremely likely the Vikings can sit pat at around the 10th pick in this upcoming draft and get Willis. He might rise and someone might jump the line to take him, but something tells me the Vikings will have a shot at him in Round 1 if they want to roll the dice there.

Willis would immediately change the conversation at QB if he were drafted. He's got a much higher ceiling than Mond even if it might take some time for him to reach it and there might be some significant bumps in the road for Vikings fans. But if the team is taking the "step back" anyway, taking Willis could lead to some real excitement. He's also a natural leader and high character person from what I have read. Would be a 180 change at QB from what we've all seen for what feels like the last 100 years or so...

I wish the Wilfs would tell Zimmer TODAY that Sunday is his last game.
That way they could begin interviewing candidates immediately. Remember, you don't have to fire your coach to interview early. You just have to tell him he's going to be terminated. Let's get this thing going. There are some great candidates out there.

That should be the responsibility of the GM, but in the Vikings reporting structure as it stands today, it would fall to Mark Wilf to make that call.

They'll let it play out I suspect. Who knows? Maybe the Vikings suddenly will show some heart against the Bears and save Zimmer's job...

I believe Rick Spielman will be retained.
Two reasons. First, if you fire Spielman, then you have to find his replacement before you find a head coach. Well, you don't HAVE to, but you are certainly better off if your new GM hires the coach of HIS choice.

Second, the Wilfs like Spielman.

Like him or not, he's largely failed to get the team into the Superbowl conversation, much less even make it competitive for the division against the new NFL almost-dynasty Green Bay Packers.

I really hope the Wilfs move on from Spielman. If they like him, great, invite him to dinner sometimes, but go out there and find a real GM who knows the kind of team he wants and how to find the head coach who can help him execute a well-defined strategy in terms of the type of players needed to create that team.

We DO NOT have to be a bad (think Detroit) team before we're good again.
There is a talent base here. You've got three pretty good O-linemen in O'Neill, Cleveland and Darrisaw. You've got a top-3 wideout in Justin Jefferson. You've got Irv Smith returning, and you get to pair him with a guy in Tyler Conklin who has broken out to the tune of 59 receptions with a game yet to play (a number that Kyle Rudolph and his $7 million cap hit hasn't seen since 2018). Obviously you've still got Dalvin Cook, and you've got another breakout player in KJ Osborn (49 receptions, 6 TDs), so the makings of a good offense are still in place.

This is the same thing I tell myself before every season begins. The Vikings have this guy or that guy or group of guys and if this other guy or that other guy just improves a bit while others don't decline they'll be in the playoff picture at least.

I wish it were true. The fact is, Spielman and the Vikings have hugely misallocated cap by giving declining or soon-to-decline or even unreliable starters big money deals, sending limited cap dollars chasing declining or inconsistent production. This has to be the single biggest reason the team fails to improve year-over-year when compared to many of the teams it desires to consider peers. It's the old "take one step forward, one step back" approach to improvement, with the consistently befuddling result of generally not moving objectively in either direction. I'd argue on the bulk, the Vikings have actually moved the wrong way these last few seasons, and will move further back next season as the impact of the Cousins contract is fully realized unless they can find that trade partner you think could be out there.

All teams have some talent base. Some of those teams have a better base than the Vikings as we stand today even if their immediate records are worse.

That isn't a reason to give up on next season, but I would hazard a guess that undoing the damage done by Spielman's liberal contracts signed with declining or even unproductive vets is going to take at least one offseason/season to fully cleanse. Might as well swallow that bitter pill sooner rather than later.

[cmoss84]

If Zimmer is not gone at this point, then he is pretty much running the show. Or his girlfriend is. Entire coaching staff needs a reboot.

As others have mentioned, I could see Spielman staying. I'm torn with this one.

The NFL QB carousel might allow us to trade Cousins. I can see a few possibilities-they all carry risks-but there are possibilities.
Watson: Talented as hell but obvious character issues. Possible jail time. Will possibly cost too much.
Huntley: I like this guy. But we would have to dump Cousins or trade him elsewhere. Might be best option.
Russell Wilson: Does Seattle go in another direction? Wilson has 2 years left on contract...37 and 40 I believe. Is he shot?
Jets.
Carolina.
Giants.
Lions.
Who knows.

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

Thought I'd start a thread about what we think will shake out now that the Vikings have missed the playoffs.



1. He wasn't a fan of the draft choice in the first place.
2. He wanted to draft him but has since soured on Mond.
3. He knows he's coaching his last game, and he's not going down with a rookie.

I'm going with Door No. 3. What do you all think? Did I miss a possibility?

I wish the Wilfs would tell Zimmer TODAY that Sunday is his last game.
That way they could begin interviewing candidates immediately. Remember, you don't have to fire your coach to interview early. You just have to tell him he's going to be terminated. Let's get this thing going. There are some great candidates out there.

I believe Rick Spielman will be retained.
Two reasons. First, if you fire Spielman, then you have to find his replacement before you find a head coach. Well, you don't HAVE to, but you are certainly better off if your new GM hires the coach of HIS choice.

It could be #2. I'll cut Zimmer some slack here. Afterall, let's face it...he does see him every day. We don't. He might see a QB that has taken no forward steps, and has maybe even regressed and is nowhere close to being an NFL QB.

It could be just the complete lack of faith that he seems to show young players. Who knows?

If only one change is made, I want Zimmer gone. I'd actually like to see what Cousins and the entire offense looks like with another HC and OC. It's not the fact that they lost to GB, it's the typical unimaginative, predictable game plan, and play calling that we see every single game. I can't take it anymore. His comment about playing Mond next week is also typical. Yes. YOU see him every day. WE don't. WE'D like to see him. Next week doesn't matter. Let's us see what you see every day...how unprepared and awful he is, if that's the case. Maybe if we see him next week, that'll shut us up for a while.

I know we've discussed the Keenum issue to death here. No, Keenum didn't have success after that season, but that doesn't say that it would have been the same outcome in Minnesota. I just feel that was such a telling sign of the kind of coach Zimmer was when he couldn't bear to give Keenum any credit for the season he had and couldn't wait to kick him to the curb. He showed me that he's the type of guy that makes up his mind about you, and there is nothing you're going to do to change it. And that same thought pattern oozes out of everything Zimmer does. "This is the way we do it, and NOTHING is going to change that. We are a RUN FIRST team. It doesn't matter if you put an O-Line of 10 year old's on the field and a running back that you can time with a calendar. We can have Dan Marino at QB and Randy Moss, Jerry Rice and Tony Gonzalez....we're still a run first team." He's unchanging and I want him gone.

I'm not so ready to get rid of Speilman. I think he has given us some very talented players over the years. It's one of the very reasons why this season mat very well be the most frustrating season in my life. There is WAY too much talent on this team to have finished under .500. I'm convinced that this coaching staff would have coached the 1998 Vikings to a losing record.

[makila]

Don't want Rick hiring another HC. Please clean house. Starting to think he survives though. He plays the game with ownership well.

The Mond pick displays how disjointed he is / no lack of vision and plan he has to execute. I am so tired of him having no clear vision of what they want to be. Or his HC said fu to him. They needed to be on the same page. Finding a player here and there isn't good if you don't build a team. This is football. Ultimate team sport. Parts need to compliment each other. Rick doesn't do that well imho.

Good post Kapp. On phone and can't fully compile thoughts. Haha.

[makila]

It could be just the complete lack of faith that he seems to show young players. Who knows?

Imo the track record says he (zimmer) has issues with young players. Freaking Bisi Johnson was starting over JJ at the beginning of the season last year.

[Texas Vike]

My gut tells me that the Ricker is safe because the Wilfs jibe with him. He may get moved into a President or some such 'advisory' role and be consulted on the hiring of a GM, but my money is on them keeping him.

Some reporter tweeted about Zimmer's response to what not making the playoffs means to him and where he's at with the Vikes and he apparently got teary-eyed and said "we'll talk about that next week." If that is accurate, Zimmer already knows he's being fired.

My guess is that they will move on from Zimmer and the new coach will keep Kirk for at least one more year. I'd personally rather move on and the rumors floating around about his trade value (a first and possibly more) seem worth it to me. The dearth of highly touted QB prospects in the 2022 draft may push up his value, which would be great for us. Then again, it looks like Russell Wilson, possibly Baker Mayfield, and (could it be??!) Aaron Rodgers may be on the market. Lots of contingencies. Should be an interesting offseason.

I'm just as interested in seeing how our new HC transforms our D. I'm tired of Zimmer's scheme, honestly. I am tired of having a swiss cheese run D and crappy corners. I want to get nasty in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

[CharVike]

The hand cramp thing was BS.

I was at the game and the way Mond would warm up between quarters he acted like he thought he was going in at any moment.

Mond got in when the game got out of hand, almost threw a pick six, and got benched. The cramps is just an excuse to save face.

I think that's a cool deal being at the game and seeing Lambo ect.... Many Viking fans are pinning the future on Mond which is OK and there opinion but I have seen nothing that makes me jump out of my seat and say wow this guy is unbelievable. Very few have any interest in Cousins and basically pin the whole deal at his feet. That's ok but plugging in QBs isn't always the answer either. Plugging in the right guy is the only answer.

[Hunter Morrow]

My thoughts have long been that extending Spielman, Zimmer and Cousins was a big fat mistake and I consider 2021 to be the unimpeachable vindication of those misgivings.

Zimmer is through. Lets talk Spielman. My thoughts are that Spielman has been living and dying on the 2015 and prior draft and free agency success. The years-long draft and free agency lack of success on the defense side of the ball for Spielman is pretty damning. The offense side of the ball with or without Cousins has a ton of promise that an offensive-minded coach would salivate over as J Kapp 11 pointed out but the defense is aging out players or injured players that are pre-2016 pick ups and a lot of them are on hefty contracts.Spielman and Zimmer struck out big time on picking D players and developing them. The collapse of this defense more than anything is why Spielman needs to get kicked up stairs or just kicked out. I don't think recent picks like Dru Samia, Garrett Bradburry, Jeff Gladney, Wyatt Davis and Kellen Mond are doing Spielman any favors, either. I think the Wilfs will give Rick Spielman a tin badge that says "Grand Poobah of Football Footballness" "on it and bring in a new GM.

Cousins is for the next GM and head coach to figure out. My preference is for dishing him. I don't care what anybody says, wins ARE a quarterback stat. Nobody impacts the game more overtly than the QB both in terms of play and leadership and team dynamic and psychology. Nobody impacts team sports more than the QB. Want more sub-playoff, sub .500 play for a gazillion dollars? Keep Cousins. Want to actually win the Super Bowl? Move on!

[CharVike]

My thoughts have long been that extending Spielman, Zimmer and Cousins was a big fat mistake and I consider 2021 to be the unimpeachable vindication of those misgivings.

Zimmer is through. Lets talk Spielman. My thoughts are that Spielman has been living and dying on the 2015 and prior draft and free agency success. The years-long draft and free agency lack of success on the defense side of the ball for Spielman is pretty damning. The offense side of the ball with or without Cousins has a ton of promise that an offensive-minded coach would salivate over as J Kapp 11 pointed out but the defense is aging out players or injured players that are pre-2016 pick ups and a lot of them are on hefty contracts.Spielman and Zimmer struck out big time on picking D players and developing them. The collapse of this defense more than anything is why Spielman needs to get kicked up stairs or just kicked out. I don't think recent picks like Dru Samia, Garrett Bradburry, Jeff Gladney, Wyatt Davis and Kellen Mond are doing Spielman any favors, either. I think the Wilfs will give Rick Spielman a tin badge that says "Grand Poobah of Football Footballness" "on it and bring in a new GM.

Cousins is for the next GM and head coach to figure out. My preference is for dishing him. I don't care what anybody says, wins ARE a quarterback stat. Nobody impacts the game more overtly than the QB both in terms of play and leadership and team dynamic and psychology. Nobody impacts team sports more than the QB. Want more sub-playoff, sub .500 play for a gazillion dollars? Keep Cousins. Want to actually win the Super Bowl? Move on!

It's interesting that you say wins are a QB stat and I'm not disagreeing with you. Watson for some he is the best. He had 4 wins the last year he started. He's didn't elevate that team at all. There the same this year with out him and JJ. I like Cousins. You need a guy that is a threat to have a chance. Every QB needs something around him. Do you think Brady could takes this current squad to the Super Bowl? I don't. If they make a change it needs to start with Spielman and then continue with Zim. On our team it looks like Mark Wilf is the GM as both trader down and Zim report to him.

[CharVike]

My gut tells me that the Ricker is safe because the Wilfs jibe with him. He may get moved into a President or some such 'advisory' role and be consulted on the hiring of a GM, but my money is on them keeping him.

Some reporter tweeted about Zimmer's response to what not making the playoffs means to him and where he's at with the Vikes and he apparently got teary-eyed and said "we'll talk about that next week." If that is accurate, Zimmer already knows he's being fired.

My guess is that they will move on from Zimmer and the new coach will keep Kirk for at least one more year. I'd personally rather move on and the rumors floating around about his trade value (a first and possibly more) seem worth it to me. The dearth of highly touted QB prospects in the 2022 draft may push up his value, which would be great for us. Then again, it looks like Russell Wilson, possibly Baker Mayfield, and (could it be??!) Aaron Rodgers may be on the market. Lots of contingencies. Should be an interesting offseason.

I'm just as interested in seeing how our new HC transforms our D. I'm tired of Zimmer's scheme, honestly. I am tired of having a swiss cheese run D and crappy corners. I want to get nasty in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

They probably told him his girlfriend is no longer welcomed in the presidential suite at the stadium and to clean her crap out. That's why he was teary-eyed. The girlfriend then called Zim a loser and told him not to lose that 5 million + a year job you have or I'm walking. He's beyond teary eyed at this point. He's in full crying mode because he's knows he's toast and he can't come up with excuse that's good enough to keep her hanging on. 5 million only goes so far today. I'm sure she doesn't want to shop at dollar general.

[40for60]

FWIW I heard on KFAN that Mond doesn’t know the playbook. If true that is a big indictment on Spielman and Mond himself. And maybe a lack of coaching, but a rookie should know the playbook way before the end of the season.

Many in the media think the Wilfs will bump Spielman up in the front office, hopefully to some non-impactful role, and hire a new GM. If that happens whoever makes that hire will have the most important one. That is what scares me … who makes that hire? Spielman? The Wilfs?

[psjordan]

Predictions on What Happens Next (after last game), in no particular order:

Spielman: Kept but re-assigned.

New GM: One of the reasons I think Spielman will be kept and moved up or lateral is that they’ve had discussions on the potential GM pool and may be very interested in someone who is perceived as very sharp but pretty raw. Rick will be the guiding hand.

Zimmer and staff: 100% gone. If they are thinking Rick has to hold hands with the new GM, then I think the new GM will not be picking the new HC. Maybe as part of a committee including Mark and Rick, who knows. But to me this may mean they are going after a HC with NFL experience (not necessarily HC experience) that they like. As opposed to a college hot-shot who might demand the world.

Cousins situation:
Unless there are back-channel discussions with a potential new HC and he says he wants to work with Cousins, I think Cousins is gone for whatever the best deal we can get for him may be. We won’t cut him, so he may be back, but I believe there is a palatable deal out there.

Mond situation:
Who knows why he’s in the situation he’s in. Possibilities:
He’s simply going to be a bust as a 3rd rounder.
He knew Zim would NEVER play him over a healthy Cousins, and a heathy Cousins has been the norm, so he never worked at becoming good enough to get on the field. Shortsighted for sure.
He thinks these coaches are a bunch of clowns and wants to get cut and move elsewhere.
Prediction: He stays and at least gets a valid chance. That will help attitude if it needs helping.

New QB situation:
Will depend on the new HC and GM. Probably will be the first or second question during the HC interview process. My guess would be any new coach would take Cousins for one year over any available riff-raff or rookie out there. But maybe we hire someone’s OC and they work to bring their current backup onto our roster. Who knows. A crapshoot. But no decisions get made without new staff being involved.

Can a new staff bring enough to the table to turn our current D roster around? Who knows. I do know it would be VERY difficult to cut or dispose of 5-6 starters at one fell swoop. And similar to the Cousins situation, a new HC may take Harrison or our vet LB’s for a year over what else is available.

I’m very confident we are in for an offseason of change, and after eight numbing seasons of Zimmer-ball I will take change like sunshine, even if that’s three wins.