Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

[VikingsVictorious]

And we won five in a row before injuries devastated our team. Bradford was very good.

He wasn't. The STs, defense and Hill won us most of those first 5 games. Then we played the Eagles, they showed the league how to shut down a very limited QB, and we lost 8 of 11.

Bradford had his best year of his career and it amounted to 7-8 and a bottom feeder offense. This was the best we were ever going to get out of him, and it wasn't close to being good enough. Horrible trade.

You have your right to be wrong. I watched those games and Bradford played very well. Anyway I'm done. If you want to believe Bradford was bad go ahead. Injuries did us in during Bradford's time with us. First season to the players around him. Second season to him.

[VikingsVictorious]

So let's look at a QB of Cousins Caliber. Since he is getting slammed left and right let's see how bad he really is. Average game stats for QB's from 2016 -2018. This was sorted by most yards per game.

Code: Select all

Player	        Cmp      At     Perc.    YPG    YPA     TD      Int    Sack	
Ben Roeth	25.3	38.8	65.2%	293.3	7.6	2.0	1.0	1.4	
Matt Ryan	23.7	34.8	68.1%	290.9	8.4	1.9	0.5	2.1	
Drew Brees	26.0	36.1	72.0%	288.0	8.0	2.0	0.6	1.4	
Tom Brady	23.9	36.0	66.4%	283.8	7.9	2.0	0.5	1.6	
Kirk Cousins	24.5	36.5	67.1%	277.3	7.6	1.7	0.7	2.2	
Philip Rivers	22.0	34.6	63.6%	275.2	8.0	1.9	0.9	1.8	
Aaron Rodgers	23.8	37.1	64.2%	270.4	7.3	2.1	0.4	2.7	
M.Stafford	23.5	35.7	65.8%	261.5	7.3	1.5	0.6	2.6	
C. Wentz	23.1	36.2	63.8%	253.8	7.0	1.8	0.7	2.3	
Jared Goff	20.3	32.7	62.1%	252.1	7.7	1.7	0.7	2.2	
Eli Manning	23.6	37.1	63.6%	250.9	6.8	1.4	0.9	2.1	
Derek Carr	23.1	35.4	65.3%	249.6	7.1	1.5	0.6	1.9	
Russell Wilson	20.3	31.8	63.8%	242.7	7.6	1.9	0.6	2.8	

The guy puts up some good stats while winning half his games, there is no doubt. The caliber comment wasn't a rip btw. He is an above average QB and a very good passer. QBs worse than him have won.

Shouldn't a QB who was brought in to help win the Super Bowl, you know, at least help compete for a Super Bowl? Instead of just not being the problem?

He wasn't brought in to put up good stats, he was brought in to win. Spielman said so himself this off season and I am not sure why people take such offense to me arguing the same.

I'm confused. You have basically been posting that Cousins sucks non-stop. Now you post he is an above average QB and a very good passer. If it's still whining that he gets paid too much that is simply wrong. This is the price of an above average QB and a very good passer.

[VikingsVictorious]

And we won five in a row before injuries devastated our team. Bradford was very good.

There was no doubting Bradfords talent IMO. It was more if he could stay healthy or not. Which surprisingly he did that year given how terrible that OL was. But by about midseason, the OL he had in front of him was even worse than anything Cousins was behind. He also had Jerick McKinnon and Matt Asiata as RBs. Which was pretty awful.

In regards to what Stump was saying, Sam Bradford wasnt outright losing us games. The only one I would say was Philly. Bradford was awful that game and so was the OL. Outside of that, there wasnt much. Sack numbers shot up after the bye week that year. I mean our OL by the end of the year consisted of a pile of trash and Joe Berger. Either way, you do the same thing in regards to Cousins. In your eyes its always on the QB that wins or loses us games and that's not always the case. You take nothing else into consideration when there are so many others things to consider. The QBs are a part of winning and losing but no way are they the sole reason so to always throw the record and lack of success as a team on their shoulders all the time like you do, open your eyes to the rest of reality surrounding the TEAM

Stump just doesn't understand simple things like the rest of the team affects the results of the QBs stats and the win loss record. He is incapable of watching Bradford play a very good game and giving him credit for it. He is incapable of watching a QB behind a line of practice squad players and not blaming him for not getting results.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I posted the stats that all point to Bradford sucking. Clearly he was a talented guy or he wouldn't have been drafter #1 overall, but that talent did not amount to him being a good QB. For his entire career, including here, he was a failure as a starter.

Not sure how 20 TDs, 5 INTs and 3800+ yards in 15 games is considered a "failure". No less he did that without an offseason with this team.

What exactly is the QB responsible for, if you can't even hold them accountable for the offense sucking? Forget winning games, what about just scoring points? The defense was great last year and we didn't make the playoffs because the offense failed to score.

Again this is the point you've been missing all along. What is the RB responsible for? What is the OL responsible for? Most importantly, what is the offensive coordinator responsible for? They are ALL responsible for the offense being successful. And last year, the RBs were not used, the OL was terrible and (most importantly) the OC was horrendous. You dont just have a good offense because you have a good QB. How many top QBs over the years have had average to below average offenses? Plenty. Green Bay, Philly, Houston and Seattle this past year. Do you realize how many offenses have been top 10 in the NFL with below average QBs over the years? Plenty. In 2017, we were one of them. So was Jacksonville. Like I said before, QB obviously has a play in the matter but it's not JUST the QB. It's just there are so many factors and things that need to fall into place in order to have that success. And it all starts with our offensive coordinator who was god awful.

In the end both Bradford and Cousins were brought in for a hefty price (Bradford's price being significantly higher) to give us a chance to win the Super Bowl. Not put up high completion percentages, but win. Bradford failed miserably at it, Cousins is 0 for 1 so far. Cousins has the opportunity to do better and stranger things have happened in the NFL than a QB of Cousins caliber winning it all, but so far his signing has been a failure.

Clearly they were brought in to win. I get that. If you're a owner/GM/coach and you arent bringing guys in to win, you should be fired. But the point is, neither Bradford or Cousins can do it alone and come in and be some savior when what's around them is failing. What dont you get about that? You dont just plug a QB into an offense and say, "alright man, it's all you everyone else just tag along". Look at the teams that have won SBs over time. They are great TEAMS. They dont all have good QBs or bad QBs. They are just a good TEAM and a WELL-COACHED TEAM. They dont have crap offensive coordinators, they dont have terrible offensive lines, they dont have non-existent run games, etc. They have BALANCE all around and on both sides of the ball. We didnt have that this year or in 2016 (especially when Norv randomly left). Kirk Cousins and Sam Bradford can do their part just as good as a lot of QBs out there but they also need everyone else to do their part too. Yeah sure, there were a couple games Bradford or Cousins played bad. But that's not why they werent in the playoffs. We made the playoffs in 2015 but I could rattle off PLENTY of bad games by Teddy. He was just lucky enough to be saved by a good defense and Adrian Peterson.

Teddy had room for error because AP would always save him. Cousins had zero room for error because his OC wouldnt run the ball. Nobody was saving Kirk Cousins. Bradford had no room for error because he had Matt Asiata/Jerick McKinnon as a backfield. Nobody was saving Sam Bradford. IMO, both Cousins and Bradford were 10 times the passer Teddy was. But Teddy had a saving grace on offense. Cousins and Bradford didnt. You cant just target Thielen and Diggs all game. Eventually teams are going to figure it out. And that's exactly what happened from the New England game forward. Not one of them passed 100 yards from week 13 (NE) until seasons end. Heck, neither of them even crossed 80 yards. Neither of those QBs had a scapegoat like Teddy did. Look at the games we won in 2015 and what AP did in those games. And then look at the games we lost and look what AP did. It's night and day

In 2016 with Bradford and 2018 with Cousins, those two years might have been the most unbalanced our offense has ever been. I mean even 2015 I suppose where AP was doing all the work. But look at the one year we had an OC that DID find a way to balance an offense....2017 with Pat Shurmur. It was NOT because Case Keenum was a good QB. Case was riding the luck train but it was a combination of what? A good defense, a good OC, a good passing game, a good running game, a good receiving core, an improved OL, etc. A lot of things went RIGHT that year. Things did not go right in 2016 and 2018 and it was NOT solely because of Kirk Cousins or Sam Bradford.

[StumpHunter]

The guy puts up some good stats while winning half his games, there is no doubt. The caliber comment wasn't a rip btw. He is an above average QB and a very good passer. QBs worse than him have won.

Shouldn't a QB who was brought in to help win the Super Bowl, you know, at least help compete for a Super Bowl? Instead of just not being the problem?

He wasn't brought in to put up good stats, he was brought in to win. Spielman said so himself this off season and I am not sure why people take such offense to me arguing the same.

I'm confused. You have basically been posting that Cousins sucks non-stop. Now you post he is an above average QB and a very good passer. If it's still whining that he gets paid too much that is simply wrong. This is the price of an above average QB and a very good passer.

I have been consistent. You just have been reading what you want to read.

[CharVike]

To you giving up 200+ yards rushing isn't a problem. I don't even know what you mean stating the yards came on busted plays. So you know what the call was on both sides. Our O was a joke I'm not denying that. It will be a joke again this year. We are starting over. How long does it take to get the players needed for this new scheme. It's not one off season. It's not rookies. People only look at select games, myself included, and I know the Rams did what ever they wanted to. Our O scored 31. That should have been an easy win against a very good team. But our D laid down and said F it. This is too much for us. I pointed out in another post that we sacked the mighty Lions 10 times but couldn't sack the Saints or Pats at all combined. Lay the wood to Brady. Let him know we are coming get ready. Our D couldn't do it and to you that's no problem. To me that's a big problem.

Well yes. I do know what busted plays look like after 50+ years of watching football. When a QB goes back to pass, has no one open and takes off running, it's a pretty good sign of a busted play. When a RB runs all the way to the left side of the field behind his blockers and gets jammed up, reverse's course, and runs a backward loop all the way to the other side of the field, I'm pretty sure the OC didn't draw that up.

And I never said it wasn't a problem. I'm saying that you can't just go by yards. If a defense holds the other team to 98 yards until 2 minutes left in the game and one player busts out a 99-yard run doesn't mean the run defense sucked the whole game. See to you it doesn't' matter that the defense held the Seahawks to 6 points for 55 minutes of the game. 4 trips to the red zone and they came out with 14 points. Defense only gave up 14 points that game, it doesn't matter how many yards they ran on the ground. When your defense holds the other team to 14 points, you should win that game. Matter of fact, the odds are that you do win that game 83% of the time. It's the offense that stalled. Against a good defense.

136 yards rushing in the first half. 3 points. I'll take that any day of the week.
[/quote
Didn't realize the Seahawks D scored on us. So not only couldn't our O move the ball they gave the game away by a TO for a TD. That's playing D. So yea the O was at fault this game.

[VikingsVictorious]

I'm confused. You have basically been posting that Cousins sucks non-stop. Now you post he is an above average QB and a very good passer. If it's still whining that he gets paid too much that is simply wrong. This is the price of an above average QB and a very good passer.

I have been consistent. You just have been reading what you want to read.

I'm trying to make some sense out of your consistency then. If he's a choker than he isn't above average. I can't imagine complaining about our QB being above average and a very good passer. So all that's left is the money and every above average, very good passing QB who's contract comes up now will be signing for more money. It's just the way the market is. I'm trying to help you find some peace with Cousins. He's above average and a very good passer. If the D stays strong and the O Line is average we are going to have a shot to go a long way in the playoffs.

[StumpHunter]

I have been consistent. You just have been reading what you want to read.

I'm trying to make some sense out of your consistency then. If he's a choker than he isn't above average. I can't imagine complaining about our QB being above average and a very good passer. So all that's left is the money and every above average, very good passing QB who's contract comes up now will be signing for more money. It's just the way the market is. I'm trying to help you find some peace with Cousins. He's above average and a very good passer. If the D stays strong and the O Line is average we are going to have a shot to go a long way in the playoffs.

You need to stop perpetuating the lie that Cousin's contract is in-line with the market. It isn't. It was, and still, is unprecedented.

I will also argue that just because the Lions, SF and Oakland overpay their average to above average QBs to not win, doesn't mean we should follow suit. That is not the model we should follow as a franchise.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I'm trying to make some sense out of your consistency then. If he's a choker than he isn't above average. I can't imagine complaining about our QB being above average and a very good passer. So all that's left is the money and every above average, very good passing QB who's contract comes up now will be signing for more money. It's just the way the market is. I'm trying to help you find some peace with Cousins. He's above average and a very good passer. If the D stays strong and the O Line is average we are going to have a shot to go a long way in the playoffs.

You need to stop perpetuating the lie that Cousin's contract is in-line with the market. It isn't. It was, and still, is unprecedented.

I will also argue that just because the Lions, SF and Oakland overpay their average to above average QBs to not win, doesn't mean we should follow suit. That is not the model we should follow as a franchise.

Wentz just got a 4 year, $128 million deal with $103 in guarantees. So if Cousins contract isnt in-line with the market, then whats Wentz's contract? Beyond absurd?

[StumpHunter]

You need to stop perpetuating the lie that Cousin's contract is in-line with the market. It isn't. It was, and still, is unprecedented.

I will also argue that just because the Lions, SF and Oakland overpay their average to above average QBs to not win, doesn't mean we should follow suit. That is not the model we should follow as a franchise.

Wentz just got a 4 year, $128 million deal with $103 in guarantees. So if Cousins contract isnt in-line with the market, then whats Wentz's contract? Beyond absurd?

He will end up making less than Cousins per year because the Eagles drafted Wentz and were able to extend him early. From a cap standpoint, his contract is now a 6 year, 156 million contract.

[StumpHunter]

I posted the stats that all point to Bradford sucking. Clearly he was a talented guy or he wouldn't have been drafter #1 overall, but that talent did not amount to him being a good QB. For his entire career, including here, he was a failure as a starter.

Not sure how 20 TDs, 5 INTs and 3800+ yards in 15 games is considered a "failure". No less he did that without an offseason with this team.

What exactly is the QB responsible for, if you can't even hold them accountable for the offense sucking? Forget winning games, what about just scoring points? The defense was great last year and we didn't make the playoffs because the offense failed to score.

Again this is the point you've been missing all along. What is the RB responsible for? What is the OL responsible for? Most importantly, what is the offensive coordinator responsible for? They are ALL responsible for the offense being successful. And last year, the RBs were not used, the OL was terrible and (most importantly) the OC was horrendous. You dont just have a good offense because you have a good QB. How many top QBs over the years have had average to below average offenses? Plenty. Green Bay, Philly, Houston and Seattle this past year. Do you realize how many offenses have been top 10 in the NFL with below average QBs over the years? Plenty. In 2017, we were one of them. So was Jacksonville. Like I said before, QB obviously has a play in the matter but it's not JUST the QB. It's just there are so many factors and things that need to fall into place in order to have that success. And it all starts with our offensive coordinator who was god awful.

In the end both Bradford and Cousins were brought in for a hefty price (Bradford's price being significantly higher) to give us a chance to win the Super Bowl. Not put up high completion percentages, but win. Bradford failed miserably at it, Cousins is 0 for 1 so far. Cousins has the opportunity to do better and stranger things have happened in the NFL than a QB of Cousins caliber winning it all, but so far his signing has been a failure.

Clearly they were brought in to win. I get that. If you're a owner/GM/coach and you arent bringing guys in to win, you should be fired. But the point is, neither Bradford or Cousins can do it alone and come in and be some savior when what's around them is failing. What dont you get about that? You dont just plug a QB into an offense and say, "alright man, it's all you everyone else just tag along". Look at the teams that have won SBs over time. They are great TEAMS. They dont all have good QBs or bad QBs. They are just a good TEAM and a WELL-COACHED TEAM. They dont have crap offensive coordinators, they dont have terrible offensive lines, they dont have non-existent run games, etc. They have BALANCE all around and on both sides of the ball. We didnt have that this year or in 2016 (especially when Norv randomly left). Kirk Cousins and Sam Bradford can do their part just as good as a lot of QBs out there but they also need everyone else to do their part too. Yeah sure, there were a couple games Bradford or Cousins played bad. But that's not why they werent in the playoffs. We made the playoffs in 2015 but I could rattle off PLENTY of bad games by Teddy. He was just lucky enough to be saved by a good defense and Adrian Peterson.

Teddy had room for error because AP would always save him. Cousins had zero room for error because his OC wouldnt run the ball. Nobody was saving Kirk Cousins. Bradford had no room for error because he had Matt Asiata/Jerick McKinnon as a backfield. Nobody was saving Sam Bradford. IMO, both Cousins and Bradford were 10 times the passer Teddy was. But Teddy had a saving grace on offense. Cousins and Bradford didnt. You cant just target Thielen and Diggs all game. Eventually teams are going to figure it out. And that's exactly what happened from the New England game forward. Not one of them passed 100 yards from week 13 (NE) until seasons end. Heck, neither of them even crossed 80 yards. Neither of those QBs had a scapegoat like Teddy did. Look at the games we won in 2015 and what AP did in those games. And then look at the games we lost and look what AP did. It's night and day

In 2016 with Bradford and 2018 with Cousins, those two years might have been the most unbalanced our offense has ever been. I mean even 2015 I suppose where AP was doing all the work. But look at the one year we had an OC that DID find a way to balance an offense....2017 with Pat Shurmur. It was NOT because Case Keenum was a good QB. Case was riding the luck train but it was a combination of what? A good defense, a good OC, a good passing game, a good running game, a good receiving core, an improved OL, etc. A lot of things went RIGHT that year. Things did not go right in 2016 and 2018 and it was NOT solely because of Kirk Cousins or Sam Bradford.

18th in TDs and 16th in yards is not a good year for a QB. Especially considering it was the best season of his career.

When AP didn't run for a 100 yards, Teddy threw for an average of 120 yards more per game, and threw for twice as many TDs. When the you aren't running the ball well, you throw more, you have more passing yards and TDs (sound familiar). It wasn't even like they moved away from the run when AP wasn't running well either. So AP would get -1 on 1st down, 2 yards on 2nd, and then Teddy would have to pick up 3rd and 9. Which he actually did surprisingly well at. All because of AP though, who was more often than not on the sidelines on that down.

GB, Seattle, Houston and Philly were all 16th or better in scoring efficiency this past season. Seattle was 7th. What rankings were you looking at?

No one ever said the QB was solely responsible for the offense sucking. You made that up.

Hope this helps.

[VikingsVictorious]

I'm trying to make some sense out of your consistency then. If he's a choker than he isn't above average. I can't imagine complaining about our QB being above average and a very good passer. So all that's left is the money and every above average, very good passing QB who's contract comes up now will be signing for more money. It's just the way the market is. I'm trying to help you find some peace with Cousins. He's above average and a very good passer. If the D stays strong and the O Line is average we are going to have a shot to go a long way in the playoffs.

You need to stop perpetuating the lie that Cousin's contract is in-line with the market. It isn't. It was, and still, is unprecedented.

I will also argue that just because the Lions, SF and Oakland overpay their average to above average QBs to not win, doesn't mean we should follow suit. That is not the model we should follow as a franchise.

Stump please stop with this. Carson Wentz with two losing seasons and one winning season Just signed for 128 Million and 107 Million guaranteed. His contract is totally in line with the market. He just went 5-6 with the team that won the Super Bowl the year before. If we were to draft a rookie he would likely never be good and if he were to become good it typically takes 4-5 years for that to happen. There are very few examples of saving money on QB in the NFL any more. You go ahead and give me examples of above average QBs who are very good passers who have signed for less than Cousins since he signed?

[VikingsVictorious]

Wentz just got a 4 year, $128 million deal with $103 in guarantees. So if Cousins contract isnt in-line with the market, then whats Wentz's contract? Beyond absurd?

He will end up making less than Cousins per year because the Eagles drafted Wentz and were able to extend him early. From a cap standpoint, his contract is now a 6 year, 156 million contract.

Desperation looking for a loop hole. We are talking about contracts signed after Kirk signed his. Who are the above average very good passers that signed since Kirk that are making less?

[StumpHunter]

He will end up making less than Cousins per year because the Eagles drafted Wentz and were able to extend him early. From a cap standpoint, his contract is now a 6 year, 156 million contract.

Desperation looking for a loop hole. We are talking about contracts signed after Kirk signed his. Who are the above average very good passers that signed since Kirk that are making less?

Foles. The Super Bowl MVP is making 22 million per and less than half of his contract is guaranteed. The unprecedented nature of Cousins contract was the fully guaranteed part, btw. It leaves the Vikings in a horrible negotiating spot if he is good and they want to extend him, and in an even worse spot if he starts to struggle. There is a reason no team has followed suit.

I don't need to look for a loophole. Cousins isn't as good as Wentz and doesn't have near the potential. It is just a fact that a good portion of that 128 million will be paid this year and next.

[VikingsVictorious]

Desperation looking for a loop hole. We are talking about contracts signed after Kirk signed his. Who are the above average very good passers that signed since Kirk that are making less?

Foles. The Super Bowl MVP is making 22 million per and less than half of his contract is guaranteed. The unprecedented nature of Cousins contract was the fully guaranteed part, btw. It leaves the Vikings in a horrible negotiating spot if he is good and they want to extend him, and in an even worse spot if he starts to struggle. There is a reason no team has followed suit.

I don't need to look for a loophole. Cousins isn't as good as Wentz and doesn't have near the potential. It is just a fact that a good portion of that 128 million will be paid this year and next.

Doug Williams was a Super Bowl MVP in much the same way Foles was. I hope you don't have him in the above average QB very good passer category. It is very doubtful that Foles is an above average very good passing QB. Even if he is you came up with one example. I think you came up with none. The contract Wentz who I will grant you is an above average QB (which I could easily act like you and deny because of his two losing seasons out of three and his H2H loss to Mr. Clutch) and very good passer signed for quite a bit more than Cousins in average annual value, in guaranteed money and in total money. Try again. See if you can come up with any examples of which I'm asking for. Don't give me your reasoning that Foles is above average and a very good passer. I know all about him. He has had 1.5 good seasons in his veteran career.