1st round pick- Vikings select C- Garrett Bradbury NC State

[CharVike]

You are claiming that LT was "much better" than Mack? What are you basing that on?

I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't know the basis for the claim, but in terms of overall effectiveness, did you watch Mack play last season? He was almost a one man wrecking ball on the Bears defense, and his ability to disrupt and become the focal point for every offensive coordinator enabled the rest of the Bears defenders to outperform as well. He may not have played at that level long enough as a pro to be in the same conversation at LT in terms of overall impact on his team, but if he keeps up his current pace, rest assured he will be.

As far as what opposing coaches like Gibbs might have been able to do to neutralize a guy like LT, well sure, dedicating two players to deal with one is usually going to result in the one being limited. The problem with that approach is that you have one less guy to use on the other defenders. And it wasn't like Mack didn't consistently beat the double teams that were attempted against him, either. He did, plenty of times. The NFL of 2018 is generally bigger, faster, and stronger on both sides of the ball than LT's NFL of the 80's and early 90's. LT was 6'3" and weighed like 240. Mack is 6'3" and weighs around 255. Not a huge difference, but that mass increase is reflected in players across the board in the modern NFL. So to pull off your strategy, you need an even bigger offensive lineman "monster" and a bigger blocking back too, and you need both of them to be technically more sound to control that greater mass and momentum and apply it effectively to road grade out that defensive dynamo. More than likely, a guy like Mack is just going to let the OL monster come to him, then he's going to get him leaning or lunging, and rip him to the side or pull him forward and past, using his mass and momentum against him, and taking him out of the play. There are lots of examples of Mack doing just that throughout last season, which is one reason he put so much pressure on opposing QBs and disrupted so many running plays to his side. And he was consistently taking on guys who had 50+ pounds on him and beating doubles.

Old school football just isn't played that much anymore at the pro level. It's just not realistic. The defenders are too big, too strong, and too athletic on average. You might be able to get away with a version of old school "hog" football on offense if you have a really strong, dynamic runner like a young AP or Lynch who can hit the seam hard and fast and get to the second level quickly, but the days of slogging it down the field with power running have been over for a long time. And that is true even against defenses that lack a Mack or LT.

Now, if you can find a monster OL who has superior balance and coordination and footwork and couple him with an equally good H, you could probably go back to the future and bring back some semblance of the power run game. But in my view, offensive guys like that are even rarer than defensive guys like Mack.

I'm basing it on Belicheck. He stated that LT was the best he has ever seen. And he mentioned that he didn't mean any disrespect for current players. But no player comes close. That was his view and perhaps there will be some that say Mack was the best ever. So I guess it doesn't mean that much. But I've seen both and IMO LT was the biggest game changer from the D side I have ever witnessed. And I go back to the early 70s. Teams had to change there offense, as Gibbs did, to help contain him. No team is doing that for Mack. You don't need to go back to the future for a power run game. The Steelers come to mind. And calling it "old school" is a little off. The Skins passed very well with the Hogs. They just didn't chuck it up 50 times. Tommy K is old school and was a dink and dunk thrower and attempted a #### load of passes and that was "old school." You think I'm going back to the 40s. Or perhaps the early 70s like when the Phins attempted 7 passes against us. They didn't need to pass. Our smaller D line was getting blown off the ball. The holes were as big as a house. No need to throw. And the back took care of the 2nd level. IMO I'd rather have the bigger player. That's all.

One other thing. Many on this board really wanted Ford and I liked him to. I posted that he wasn't on our board because he was to big and lack the movement skills for this scheme. Not saying I'm always right because I'm wrong many times also but I hit that one. We will always shy away from the bigger player unless he can move at an exceptional rate. But a player like that is top 10.

[YikesVikes]

It might not be that we shyed away from him but that interior was m ore important.

[CharVike]

The bigger man usually wins the battle. That's why Gibbs liked size. Did it always work? Nope. LT ended Theisman's career as an example. I like bigger players some don't. Kubiak likes smaller athletic guys. I'm not a fan of that type of football. We'll see how it works this year.

What?

Even in short yardage situations, where it's a mass pile of humanity, LOW MAN wins the battle, not the biggest man.

This game is about leverage, not size.

Don't fool yourself size matters.Use DBs for short yardage and get low. That won't work. They will be driven into the ground.

[J. Kapp 11]

What?

Even in short yardage situations, where it's a mass pile of humanity, LOW MAN wins the battle, not the biggest man.

This game is about leverage, not size.

Don't fool yourself size matters.Use DBs for short yardage and get low. That won't work. They will be driven into the ground.

Put five 340-pound O-linemen out there and let me know how well they hold up against a great pass rush like the Bears. See, I can exaggerate, too.

Size matters to a degree. But not to the degree you're promoting.

[VikingLord]

I'm basing it on Belicheck. He stated that LT was the best he has ever seen. And he mentioned that he didn't mean any disrespect for current players. But no player comes close. That was his view and perhaps there will be some that say Mack was the best ever. So I guess it doesn't mean that much. But I've seen both and IMO LT was the biggest game changer from the D side I have ever witnessed. And I go back to the early 70s. Teams had to change there offense, as Gibbs did, to help contain him. No team is doing that for Mack. You don't need to go back to the future for a power run game. The Steelers come to mind. And calling it "old school" is a little off. The Skins passed very well with the Hogs. They just didn't chuck it up 50 times. Tommy K is old school and was a dink and dunk thrower and attempted a #### load of passes and that was "old school." You think I'm going back to the 40s. Or perhaps the early 70s like when the Phins attempted 7 passes against us. They didn't need to pass. Our smaller D line was getting blown off the ball. The holes were as big as a house. No need to throw. And the back took care of the 2nd level. IMO I'd rather have the bigger player. That's all.

You're right - the best way to describe it isn't old school - it's smash mouth, and it's still semi-common in the college ranks.

It's just hard to establish that as a core offensive approach in the pros and ride it all the way to the Superbowl.

[YikesVikes]

I'm basing it on Belicheck. He stated that LT was the best he has ever seen. And he mentioned that he didn't mean any disrespect for current players. But no player comes close. That was his view and perhaps there will be some that say Mack was the best ever. So I guess it doesn't mean that much. But I've seen both and IMO LT was the biggest game changer from the D side I have ever witnessed. And I go back to the early 70s. Teams had to change there offense, as Gibbs did, to help contain him. No team is doing that for Mack. You don't need to go back to the future for a power run game. The Steelers come to mind. And calling it "old school" is a little off. The Skins passed very well with the Hogs. They just didn't chuck it up 50 times. Tommy K is old school and was a dink and dunk thrower and attempted a #### load of passes and that was "old school." You think I'm going back to the 40s. Or perhaps the early 70s like when the Phins attempted 7 passes against us. They didn't need to pass. Our smaller D line was getting blown off the ball. The holes were as big as a house. No need to throw. And the back took care of the 2nd level. IMO I'd rather have the bigger player. That's all.

You're right - the best way to describe it isn't old school - it's smash mouth, and it's still semi-common in the college ranks.

It's just hard to establish that as a core offensive approach in the pros and ride it all the way to the Superbowl.

But that seems like, it's what Zimmer wants.

[CharVike]

I'm basing it on Belicheck. He stated that LT was the best he has ever seen. And he mentioned that he didn't mean any disrespect for current players. But no player comes close. That was his view and perhaps there will be some that say Mack was the best ever. So I guess it doesn't mean that much. But I've seen both and IMO LT was the biggest game changer from the D side I have ever witnessed. And I go back to the early 70s. Teams had to change there offense, as Gibbs did, to help contain him. No team is doing that for Mack. You don't need to go back to the future for a power run game. The Steelers come to mind. And calling it "old school" is a little off. The Skins passed very well with the Hogs. They just didn't chuck it up 50 times. Tommy K is old school and was a dink and dunk thrower and attempted a #### load of passes and that was "old school." You think I'm going back to the 40s. Or perhaps the early 70s like when the Phins attempted 7 passes against us. They didn't need to pass. Our smaller D line was getting blown off the ball. The holes were as big as a house. No need to throw. And the back took care of the 2nd level. IMO I'd rather have the bigger player. That's all.

You're right - the best way to describe it isn't old school - it's smash mouth, and it's still semi-common in the college ranks.

It's just hard to establish that as a core offensive approach in the pros and ride it all the way to the Superbowl.

It's hard to establish anything and ride it to the Superbowl. Kubiak will implement his complicated zone block gimmick which requires a cohesive OL. It has proven to work I won't deny that. We don't have a cohesive OL. Don't even know the 5 starters or what position they will play. I'd prefer a much simpler approach. Straight up. My guy against your guy. Get ready because we will pound you. That could get blown up also and I realize that.

[J. Kapp 11]

You're right - the best way to describe it isn't old school - it's smash mouth, and it's still semi-common in the college ranks.

It's just hard to establish that as a core offensive approach in the pros and ride it all the way to the Superbowl.

It's hard to establish anything and ride it to the Superbowl. Kubiak will implement his complicated zone block gimmick which requires a cohesive OL. It has proven to work I won't deny that. We don't have a cohesive OL. Don't even know the 5 starters or what position they will play. I'd prefer a much simpler approach. Straight up. My guy against your guy. Get ready because we will pound you. That could get blown up also and I realize that.

Complicated zone blocking gimmick. Interesting.

Here's the truth. Zone blocking is anything but complicated.

Lots of college teams do it and do it successfully, in large part because you can teach it to guys in a short period of time. You're not going after a certain guy. You're going after whomever comes in your zone, which makes it less prone to trickery by the defense. It requires repeatable footwork ... not one kind of footwork for this play and another kind for that play. You seem to have this idea that power football is all just driving straight forward. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's also harder for the defense to tell whether the play is a run or pass based on the lineman's stance and position, because in zone blocking, they're similar for both.

But the biggest thing for THIS TEAM is that zone blocking is NOT based on everybody their winning one-on-one matchups. It's based on creating creases. The running back runs nearly parallel to the LOS, then cuts upfield as the crease forms. That is by far the best way to use Dalvin Cook. With power football, the running back runs to a pre-determined location. If somebody blows up his man, the hole doesn't form, and the play is over unless the running back is Barry Sanders. We've seen that repeatedly over the past few seasons, even with Adrian Peterson.

"Get ready because we will pound you." Really? How has that worked so far with our personnel?

With the guys on our line, who's gonna blow people away? Bradbury? Perhaps ... he's got a mean streak, but he's also a rookie going up against monsters like Akiem Hicks. Elflein? Pound people? Seriously? You're telling me O'Neill's gonna beat his man with power?

Zone blocking is not complicated, and it's not a gimmick. It's a proven blocking method, both in college and the NFL. There are no guarantees, but I feel pretty confident that this team will run the football in 2019 far better than it did in 2018 (it would be hard to do worse). If that's the case, it follows that the passing game will improve because now you can run play-action effectively. Whether that translates to scoring touchdowns and winning games is anybody's guess, but I'm betting on the Vikings running the football well this season.

[CharVike]

It's hard to establish anything and ride it to the Superbowl. Kubiak will implement his complicated zone block gimmick which requires a cohesive OL. It has proven to work I won't deny that. We don't have a cohesive OL. Don't even know the 5 starters or what position they will play. I'd prefer a much simpler approach. Straight up. My guy against your guy. Get ready because we will pound you. That could get blown up also and I realize that.

Complicated zone blocking gimmick. Interesting.

Here's the truth. Zone blocking is anything but complicated.

Lots of college teams do it and do it successfully, in large part because you can teach it to guys in a short period of time. You're not going after a certain guy. You're going after whomever comes in your zone, which makes it less prone to trickery by the defense. It requires repeatable footwork ... not one kind of footwork for this play and another kind for that play. You seem to have this idea that power football is all just driving straight forward. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's also harder for the defense to tell whether the play is a run or pass based on the lineman's stance and position, because in zone blocking, they're similar for both.

But the biggest thing for THIS TEAM is that zone blocking is NOT based on everybody their winning one-on-one matchups. It's based on creating creases. The running back runs nearly parallel to the LOS, then cuts upfield as the crease forms. That is by far the best way to use Dalvin Cook. With power football, the running back runs to a pre-determined location. If somebody blows up his man, the hole doesn't form, and the play is over unless the running back is Barry Sanders. We've seen that repeatedly over the past few seasons, even with Adrian Peterson.

"Get ready because we will pound you." Really? How has that worked so far with our personnel?

With the guys on our line, who's gonna blow people away? Bradbury? Perhaps ... he's got a mean streak, but he's also a rookie going up against monsters like Akiem Hicks. Elflein? Pound people? Seriously? You're telling me O'Neill's gonna beat his man with power?

Zone blocking is not complicated, and it's not a gimmick. It's a proven blocking method, both in college and the NFL. There are no guarantees, but I feel pretty confident that this team will run the football in 2019 far better than it did in 2018 (it would be hard to do worse). If that's the case, it follows that the passing game will improve because now you can run play-action effectively. Whether that translates to scoring touchdowns and winning games is anybody's guess, but I'm betting on the Vikings running the football well this season.

Bradbury is a good player and was considered the best center in the draft. He's a big person when compared to the average joe but from a football stand point he's not big. But the knock on Bradbury that I've seen is his base strength. Yes he can bench press a house but the bench press can fool people. If you have great technique you can lift more weight. Doesn't mean you have football strength. I looked at a list of top combine bench press guys and most weren't great players. Most were bums. I liked our old G Dixon. He was 340+ and that was years ago. He wasn't all world that's for sure. But as the game moved on his size gave him an advantage. Perhaps Zone is the easiest scheme and uncomplicated. Zone is what we will go with and I hope it works.

[VikingsVictorious]

Complicated zone blocking gimmick. Interesting.

Here's the truth. Zone blocking is anything but complicated.

Lots of college teams do it and do it successfully, in large part because you can teach it to guys in a short period of time. You're not going after a certain guy. You're going after whomever comes in your zone, which makes it less prone to trickery by the defense. It requires repeatable footwork ... not one kind of footwork for this play and another kind for that play. You seem to have this idea that power football is all just driving straight forward. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's also harder for the defense to tell whether the play is a run or pass based on the lineman's stance and position, because in zone blocking, they're similar for both.

But the biggest thing for THIS TEAM is that zone blocking is NOT based on everybody their winning one-on-one matchups. It's based on creating creases. The running back runs nearly parallel to the LOS, then cuts upfield as the crease forms. That is by far the best way to use Dalvin Cook. With power football, the running back runs to a pre-determined location. If somebody blows up his man, the hole doesn't form, and the play is over unless the running back is Barry Sanders. We've seen that repeatedly over the past few seasons, even with Adrian Peterson.

"Get ready because we will pound you." Really? How has that worked so far with our personnel?

With the guys on our line, who's gonna blow people away? Bradbury? Perhaps ... he's got a mean streak, but he's also a rookie going up against monsters like Akiem Hicks. Elflein? Pound people? Seriously? You're telling me O'Neill's gonna beat his man with power?

Zone blocking is not complicated, and it's not a gimmick. It's a proven blocking method, both in college and the NFL. There are no guarantees, but I feel pretty confident that this team will run the football in 2019 far better than it did in 2018 (it would be hard to do worse). If that's the case, it follows that the passing game will improve because now you can run play-action effectively. Whether that translates to scoring touchdowns and winning games is anybody's guess, but I'm betting on the Vikings running the football well this season.

Bradbury is a good player and was considered the best center in the draft. He's a big person when compared to the average joe but from a football stand point he's not big. But the knock on Bradbury that I've seen is his base strength. Yes he can bench press a house but the bench press can fool people. If you have great technique you can lift more weight. Doesn't mean you have football strength. I looked at a list of top combine bench press guys and most weren't great players. Most were bums. I liked our old G Dixon. He was 340+ and that was years ago. He wasn't all world that's for sure. But as the game moved on his size gave him an advantage. Perhaps Zone is the easiest scheme and uncomplicated. Zone is what we will go with and I hope it works.

Zone Blocking is designed to use the defenders weight and momentum against them. It values agility and quickness over brute strength. However, Bradbury is still big enough at 306 pounds and he is very strong. He beat Lawrence the massive Nose Tackle from Clemson who went right in front of him when they went H2H. Nothing to worry about here.

[VikingLord]

Zone Blocking is designed to use the defenders weight and momentum against them. It values agility and quickness over brute strength. However, Bradbury is still big enough at 306 pounds and he is very strong. He beat Lawrence the massive Nose Tackle from Clemson who went right in front of him when they went H2H. Nothing to worry about here.

Anyone who watched John Randle play knows size is overrated. Or Randall McDaniel, for that matter. Neither guy was huge. Both dominated their opposition consistently.

And you're exactly right - Bradbury isn't small or weak. He's just not huge.

Then again, name me a modern NFL center who is huge compared to Bradbury. I don't have the numbers but I'd guess there might be one or two starting centers in the NFL who are north of 320 pounds.

My guess is that after about 3 seasons Bradbury will top out between 310-315 pounds as his playing weight, which will put him right in the sweet spot for a starting NFL center. He'll be making either his 1st or 2nd pro bowl by that point.

[VikingsVictorious]

For anybody who has concerns about Bradbury and his strength and anchoring ability I present game film from his game against Wilkins and Lawrence of Clemson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyjA7KxNBjI&t=712s
Dominated them all day long.