The State of the Vikings

[Leafman]

Yes, well, I know your position on team failure and I have no hopes of convincing you otherwise, but for the other fans who see it as I do, it is painfully clear the team does not execute as well with Ponder at QB ... subconscious or not, I am convinced the players simply don't believe they can win with him. It's like holding a snake ... it senses if you're comfortable, and if you are, it is too ... but if you're tense and nervous and scared, it will tense up, constrict you or even strike. Ponder takes the field and his uncertainty and ineptitude are palpable, the other guys sense it, and it spreads like a virus in the huddle and throughout the sideline.

It's a psychological weakness that needs fixing, but until it is fixed, I don't believe the team will ever bring their A game whenever Ponder is on the field. As such, I believe the way they played against the Packers was more aberration than a clear display of reality. Feel free to freak out about it, but I think it's a waste of energy.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

[fiestavike]

I agree with you to a point but there's more to it than that and I'm curious to see what happens going forward. I don't think it's as simple as Bridgewater's presence allowing them to scheme in such a way as to minimize the impact of poor Oline play, and for two reasons: in that Atlanta game, they had an excellent o-line play and I don't believe it was simply due to Bridgewater's presence. I'm sure some will disagree but i don't think Atlanta perceived him as such a threat in the passing game that Bridgewater's presence alone allowed the Vikes to rush for 200+ yards. The OL delivered in that game.

More importantly, I think, to some extent, it was the Falcons who enabled the Vikes to scheme as you described. They let Bridgewater throw a lot of quick-hitters and it's easy for a QB to get the ball out of his hands on routes like that. I fully expect upcoming opponents to try to take away the short stuff and challenge Bridgewater to beat them down the field. If he can do it, then we'll really have something!

As I've said in some other threads, the Oline was not that great against Atlanta, in fact they showed a lot of the same shortcomings they have shown all season, such as the inability to maintain blocks, and Kalil got whipped repeatedly but the ball got out early enough to minimize the damage from the breakdown. They left a lot of yards and bigger plays out on the field and I think to some degree its a case of team production being confused with the performance of one unit.

I agree its not just Bridgewater's performance in game. Its that his skill set allowed them to run a game plan that permitted them to spread out the offense and run read option draw plays up the middle with great effect, and without opening up gaping problems in our passing game. In my opinion Ponder would not have been able to run that gameplan because of his lack of composure and decisiveness, and evidently the coaches agreed because they went back to a recipe which demanded our linemen win physical matchups, which they have not shown the ability to do all season.

edit* I'm not saying It's all Ponder. Our line is bad in my opinion. A real glaring weakness. But that problem is compounded by Ponder's problems. All of this has nothing to do with our Defensive line and LB corps inability to fill lanes and stop the GB PACKERS TERRIBLE OFFENSIVE LINE from gashing us time and agian.

[DK Sweets]

The bumpy ride might not be as long as we think.

The defense does seem to be a bit undisciplined right now, but we play nickel defense an awful lot and 7 of those 11 guys are in their first three years (Floyd, Barr, Hodges, Rhodes, Robinson, Blanton, Smith). Getting comfortable in a new scheme isn't easy for a veteran; for young players who are trying to develop in the NFL in general mistakes are going to be much more common. You have to admit, with the exception of possibly Blanton and Floyd, these players look like a solid foundation to be building on, and it's not like Griffen, Joseph, and Munnerlyn are retiring imminently. Smith has already shown that he might have what it takes to be one of the best players in the league, and I think it won't be long before he becomes the leader of that unit. I think he'll be a great leader, too.

On offense, we heard that Peterson and Rudolph would be the focal points all offseason...we've had a combined 4 games from that duo, and only one game together. Jarius Wright has begun to emerge, and we know what Greg Jennings can do when the quarterback is capable of making read and getting the ball to him. Cordarrelle Patterson is one of the brighter talents in the league, and everything about his personality makes me believe he is going to become much better...which should be scary for other teams. We don't know what Teddy is going to end up being, but what we have seen from him, we can hope for bright things in the future. Actually, we've always HOPED for a bright future from our quarterbacks, I think it's finally to the point where we can believe it our Quarterback is headed for great things.

The most valuable player on our roster right now that isn't under contract for next year is....Matt Asiata, maybe? I'll take that. We have a great opportunity to continue to build chemistry and upgrade the positions we aren't comfortable with. When was the last time we were that stable?

This has been a rough stretch for Vikings fans, because we're so accustomed to always at least being an average team. Rick Spielman has made it clear that he wasn't building to win now, because always striving to be above average can get in the way of being great. That's why our team has been so young. Now we have an amazing young roster that has a chance to really contend for years, and I think a lot of people will be changing their tune on "Rickie" soon. I find it a bit too reactional to take a (granted, very lopsided) loss to Green Bay under horrible circumstances as an indication that this team isn't headed upward very, very soon.

[Mothman]

Yes, well, I know your position on team failure and I have no hopes of convincing you otherwise, but for the other fans who see it as I do, it is painfully clear the team does not execute as well with Ponder at QB ... subconscious or not, I am convinced the players simply don't believe they can win with him

Let's assume that's true: is it safe to assume you also see what a huge problem that represents? I'm increasingly of the opinion that this Vikings roster, collectively, lacks what it takes mentally to be winner. I'm sure some players have the "right stuff" but as a whole? I'm having serious doubts.

It's like holding a snake ... it senses if you're comfortable, and if you are, it is too ... but if you're tense and nervous and scared, it will tense up, constrict you or even strike. Ponder takes the field and his uncertainty and ineptitude are palpable, the other guys sense it, and it spreads like a virus in the huddle and throughout the sideline.

It's a psychological weakness that needs fixing, but until it is fixed, I don't believe the team will ever bring their A game whenever Ponder is on the field. As such, I believe the way they played against the Packers was more aberration than a clear display of reality. Feel free to freak out about it, but I think it's a waste of energy.

I'm not "freaking out" about it. However, I am concerned about a lack of sufficient leadership and mental toughness on the roster. I think it was reflected in all the late collapses last year and it's reflected in 3 double-dgit losses in the past 4 games. Throw the Packers game out because of Ponder's poisonous presence if you must but that isn't going to make a blowout loss at home to New England look any better and Ponder was nowhere to be seen in that one. They produced a mere 9 points in New Orleans and let the Saints offense have their way with them early and late. What happened in-between was encouraging for a while but defensively, they collapsed again late.

Maybe I'm wrong and it really is ALL about the QB (as some say) and once Teddy can start every week, everything will fall into place. Good QB play can definitely help mask flaws but I don't think I'm wasting energy by expressing concern about a team that's dropped 3 out of 4 games and was only competitive in one of those losses. Heck, going back to last year, the Vikes have now been completely blown out in 3 of their last 7 games. That's just ugly.

[Mothman]

The bumpy ride might not be as long as we think.

The defense does seem to be a bit undisciplined right now, but we play nickel defense an awful lot and 7 of those 11 guys are in their first three years (Floyd, Barr, Hodges, Rhodes, Robinson, Blanton, Smith). Getting comfortable in a new scheme isn't easy for a veteran; for young players who are trying to develop in the NFL in general mistakes are going to be much more common. You have to admit, with the exception of possibly Blanton and Floyd, these players look like a solid foundation to be building on, and it's not like Griffen, Joseph, and Munnerlyn are retiring imminently. Smith has already shown that he might have what it takes to be one of the best players in the league, and I think it won't be long before he becomes the leader of that unit. I think he'll be a great leader, too.

On offense, we heard that Peterson and Rudolph would be the focal points all offseason...we've had a combined 4 games from that duo, and only one game together. Jarius Wright has begun to emerge, and we know what Greg Jennings can do when the quarterback is capable of making read and getting the ball to him. Cordarrelle Patterson is one of the brighter talents in the league, and everything about his personality makes me believe he is going to become much better...which should be scary for other teams. We don't know what Teddy is going to end up being, but what we have seen from him, we can hope for bright things in the future. Actually, we've always HOPED for a bright future from our quarterbacks, I think it's finally to the point where we can believe it our Quarterback is headed for great things.

The most valuable player on our roster right now that isn't under contract for next year is....Matt Asiata, maybe? I'll take that. We have a great opportunity to continue to build chemistry and upgrade the positions we aren't comfortable with. When was the last time we were that stable?

This has been a rough stretch for Vikings fans, because we're so accustomed to always at least being an average team. Rick Spielman has made it clear that he wasn't building to win now, because always striving to be above average can get in the way of being great. That's why our team has been so young. Now we have an amazing young roster that has a chance to really contend for years, and I think a lot of people will be changing their tune on "Rickie" soon. I find it a bit too reactional to take a (granted, very lopsided) loss to Green Bay under horrible circumstances as an indication that this team isn't headed upward very, very soon.

All good points but in response to that last line, I'll repeat what I said in my previous post: going back to last year, the Vikes have now been completely blown out in 3 of their last 7 games. They've lost by double digits in 3 of their last 4. I'm not reacting to one lopsided loss to Green Bay but I am concerned about the mental makeup of this team.

[DK Sweets]

All good points but in response to that last line, I'll repeat what I said in my previous post: going back to last year, the Vikes have now been completely blown out in 3 of their last 7 games. They've lost by double digits in 3 of their last 4. I'm not reacting to one lopsided loss to Green Bay but I am concerned about the mental makeup of this team.

It's not a pretty stat, but don't immaturity and youth generally go hand in hand? I feel like these are growing moments, and not necessarily indicative of how these players will respond to adversity in the near future. Outside of Jennings, Sullivan, Loadholt, Robison, and Greenway, we haven't had many veterans to lean on this year. If this problem persists, I will agree 100% that something needs to change, but as of right now, I'm not so sure that the problem is that we need new players so much as it is that we need our players to begin to understand what it takes to be emotionally mature. I think this is the biggest reason many people want to blame Ponder for so much of the last game: when you take a team that is already trying to build momentum and the most important player on the field (who has looked horrible before) seems to be having one of his worst games...it tough. Put in a QB like Luck, Manning, Brady, or Brees and you might see these players dig a little bit deeper. Hopefully, Teddy can provide that kind of emotional lift outside of the Xs and Os.

[Mothman]

It's not a pretty stat, but don't immaturity and youth generally go hand in hand? I feel like these are growing moments, and not necessarily indicative of how these players will respond to adversity in the near future. Outside of Jennings, Sullivan, Loadholt, Robison, and Greenway, we haven't had many veterans to lean on this year. If this problem persists, I will agree 100% that something needs to change, but as of right now, I'm not so sure that the problem is that we need new players so much as it is that we need our players to begin to understand what it takes to be emotionally mature.

Well said. It may be a little of both. I certainly wasn't trying to say, definitively, that the Vikes need to clean house. I definitely expected growing pains and "growing moments" this season but I just can't help finding the trend of last game collapses and lopsided losses concerning. On the other hand, I'm not trying to be an alarmist about it either. I think I'm just unsettled by Robison's comment about the team's effort and worried that this team's mental makeup is way too fragile. If it is, maybe Zimmer will turn out to be exactly the right coach to change that because I think he's a tough-minded, determined guy.

[PurpleKoolaid]

I put a lot of the blame for the blowout against GB on #7, but im sure you saw that coming Jim. He hurt the team in ways they couldn't recover.

I think you are correct about Norv. Having a good tackle and a decent guard would help him.

The Dline is scarry bad. Talk about overpaying 2 DE's.

I would put a lot of the blame for the team, as a whole, on Rickie. Ive talked about him as much as #7, so I wont add more here.

[J. Kapp 11]

Well, let's just say this thread doesn't surprise me. I'll refrain from commenting, but I just have to shake my head at heavy criticism of Norv Turner. I'll leave it at that.

Here's what I see ...

1. A defense whose veterans are struggling to break bad habits (freelancing) they learned under the previous regime, and whose young players are making young-player mistakes.
Not surprisingly, the players making the most impact are the ones who have a combination of youth and talent (Smith, Rhodes, Barr). But sometimes they make mistakes -- Rhodes with a few PIs this year, and Smith getting burned by Jordy Nelson. The defense is going to have great moments, and they're going to have bad moments. Why? Because they have yet to buy in to what Zimmer is trying to do. Some of them have been doing this freelancing thing for awhile now, and despite having some talent, may not be a good fit for this team. That will all sort itself out.

2. An offense that has suffered big losses and has yet to find a quarterback.
Yes, that's what I said. HAS YET TO FIND A QUARTERBACK. Teddy Bridgewater has shown that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy. He certainly had a great game against Atlanta. But that's one game, and it was against a team with a putrid defense that's 1-9 in its past 10 road games. Teddy also had a simplified playbook -- which he mastered beautifully, I might add -- AND he hurt himself in the game. So in truth, we've had competent QB play for exactly one game.

As for losses, we've lost our best runner to stupidity, our best two quarterbacks to injury, our best receiver (yes, Kyle Rudolph is our best receiver) to injury, and (probably) our best offensive lineman to injury. Add in a mercurial talent at WR who for some reason can't beat press coverage, and you end up with an offense that's better on paper than it is in real life. But yeah, that's Norv's fault.

When Teddy is both healthy and able to run the entire playbook (and he WILL be able to do that, and probably very soon) and CP is able to get open once in awhile and Kyle Rudolph gets healthy and Brandon Fusco gets healthy, then let's see if you Norv skeptics are singing a different tune. I'm going to say "yes," but we shall see.

[DK Sweets]

Well, let's just say this thread doesn't surprise me. I'll refrain from commenting, but I just have to shake my head at heavy criticism of Norv Turner. I'll leave it at that.

Here's what I see ...

1. A defense whose veterans are struggling to break bad habits (freelancing) they learned under the previous regime, and whose young players are making young-player mistakes.
Not surprisingly, the players making the most impact are the ones who have a combination of youth and talent (Smith, Rhodes, Barr). But sometimes they make mistakes -- Rhodes with a few PIs this year, and Smith getting burned by Jordy Nelson. The defense is going to have great moments, and they're going to have bad moments. Why? Because they have yet to buy in to what Zimmer is trying to do. Some of them have been doing this freelancing thing for awhile now, and despite having some talent, may not be a good fit for this team. That will all sort itself out.

2. An offense that has suffered big losses and has yet to find a quarterback.
Yes, that's what I said. HAS YET TO FIND A QUARTERBACK. Teddy Bridgewater has shown that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy. He certainly had a great game against Atlanta. But that's one game, and it was against a team with a putrid defense that's 1-9 in its past 10 road games. Teddy also had a simplified playbook -- which he mastered beautifully, I might add -- AND he hurt himself in the game. So in truth, we've had competent QB play for exactly one game.

As for losses, we've lost our best runner to stupidity, our best two quarterbacks to injury, our best receiver (yes, Kyle Rudolph is our best receiver) to injury, and (probably) our best offensive lineman to injury. Add in a mercurial talent at WR who for some reason can't beat press coverage, and you end up with an offense that's better on paper than it is in real life. But yeah, that's Norv's fault.

When Teddy is both healthy and able to run the entire playbook (and he WILL be able to do that, and probably very soon) and CP is able to get open once in awhile and Kyle Rudolph gets healthy and Brandon Fusco gets healthy, then let's see if you Norv skeptics are singing a different tune. I'm going to say "yes," but we shall see.

I agree in principle with what you're saying, but very few teams are ever completely healthy. The problem is that the injured players are the cornerstones of our offense (although I have to argue that Fusco isn't as important to our line as Sullivan). We could have lost Charlie Johnson, Greg Jennings, and even CP all at once and still been okay, but as you stated...we lost the best back in the game and our most important receiver in Rudolph. That's not easy to overcome.

Losing Cassel is more of an add-on to the list, in my opinion, because as much as I wanted him to start, at this point it's time for Teddy. Cassel/Ponder got through the HOF QB portion of our schedule, and now it's time to see what Teddy has against reasonable competition.

[Mothman]

Well, let's just say this thread doesn't surprise me. I'll refrain from commenting, but I just have to shake my head at heavy criticism of Norv Turner. I'll leave it at that.

I don't think it's all that heavy. I can't speak for anyone else but I certainly don't mean it that way. I'm not putting him wholly at fault for the offense's struggles but I do think he needs to get the ball to Patterson more. I understand that it's early, he's lost a few key components of his offense and there are bound to be growing pains with any system change. He's clearly facing some difficult challenges. However, since the offense has scored 10 points or less in 3 of their 5 games, I hardly think he is above a little criticism.

1. A defense whose veterans are struggling to break bad habits (freelancing) they learned under the previous regime, and whose young players are making young-player mistakes.
Not surprisingly, the players making the most impact are the ones who have a combination of youth and talent (Smith, Rhodes, Barr). But sometimes they make mistakes -- Rhodes with a few PIs this year, and Smith getting burned by Jordy Nelson. The defense is going to have great moments, and they're going to have bad moments. Why? Because they have yet to buy in to what Zimmer is trying to do. Some of them have been doing this freelancing thing for awhile now, and despite having some talent, may not be a good fit for this team. That will all sort itself out.

I'm not convinced they learned bad habits from the previous staff. I think it's more likely that staff wasn't able to rid them of those habits. I certainly don't recall defensive players being encouraged to freelance under those coaches. In fact, I remember them talking about the need for players to stick with their assignments, which makes sense since that system was all about gap responsibility up front and zone responsibility on the back end.

I'm more inclined toward the explanation Tom Powers put forth in this column: the players aren't fully comprehending the system yet. Perhaps that's what you meant about them not yet buying into what Zimmer is trying to do?

2. An offense that has suffered big losses and has yet to find a quarterback.
Yes, that's what I said. HAS YET TO FIND A QUARTERBACK. Teddy Bridgewater has shown that he has the POTENTIAL to be that guy. He certainly had a great game against Atlanta. But that's one game, and it was against a team with a putrid defense that's 1-9 in its past 10 road games. Teddy also had a simplified playbook -- which he mastered beautifully, I might add -- AND he hurt himself in the game. So in truth, we've had competent QB play for exactly one game.

I agree with you on this. I'm excited about Bridgewater but one great game doesn't make "the answer" at Qb, even though we're all hoping he IS that answer.

[Lash Man]

I for one think that with a healthy TB playing and a fired up defense "after the latest debacle" and a highly motivated coach to make sure that last Thursday is not the norm , think we will put up a very good showing against the motor city kitties . I also think with the loss of AD , Fusco and the starting tight end "with the dropsies" that if we should somehow win it would indicate that we are in a pretty good position for the future even at 3-3 . I am giving Zimmer a break this season like I did Frasier his first full year but I admit I definitely like a coach that admits to being upset over terrible play instead of the same regurgitated " we will go back and look at the tape and clean things up week after week loss after loss " I guess only time will tell . Skoll Vikings lets kick some Kitty arse next Sunday and use that to catapult to a winning season

[losperros]

The criticism of Turner and his use of Patterson is unwarranted, IMO. If I'm coordinator, and I used him to great effect in the first game, then saw my second and third opponents make adjustments to spy him after seeing how I was using him in game 1, I wouldn't go back to those plays again either UNTIL I felt he was becoming a more complete receiver. I'd focus on getting him more game reps running traditional receiver routes so he could develop those much-needed abilities and until he falls off opposing defensive coordinators' radars a bit. Sweeps and flys *never* work against NFL defenses when they are expecting them, and that's the price for using them several times in the first two weeks.

I think Turner is a great offensive coordinator, so don't get me wrong. I just believe that Cordarrelle Patterson can do more than just sweeps and fly routes. But then, I was a fan of his since he played at Tennessee. So maybe I'm biased. I do think that Turner will work things out and we'll see Patterson become a bigger part of the offensive attack.

I always say it here, and I'll say it again ... the play in the trenches ultimately determines success in the NFL, and that's where the Vikings need the most work. Improving consistency on the OLine, and shoring up the first level run defense are priorities. For the latter, I think both Zimmer and Robison have pointed out what needs to be improved ... they gotta stop playing as individuals trying to make big plays and instead focus on their individual assignments within a team defensive scheme. They don't have enough talent yet to be a big play defense with individuals following instinct instead of sticking to their assignments.

You bet. The war in the trenches determines the game. While there are some problems with the D and even some talent gaps, I like where the unit is going. There are already some exciting young guys playing defense for the Vikings.

[purplereign1]

As I've said in some other threads, the Oline was not that great against Atlanta, in fact they showed a lot of the same shortcomings they have shown all season, such as the inability to maintain blocks, and Kalil got whipped repeatedly but the ball got out early enough to minimize the damage from the breakdown. They left a lot of yards and bigger plays out on the field and I think to some degree its a case of team production being confused with the performance of one unit.

I agree its not just Bridgewater's performance in game. Its that his skill set allowed them to run a game plan that permitted them to spread out the offense and run read option draw plays up the middle with great effect, and without opening up gaping problems in our passing game. In my opinion Ponder would not have been able to run that gameplan because of his lack of composure and decisiveness, and evidently the coaches agreed because they went back to a recipe which demanded our linemen win physical matchups, which they have not shown the ability to do all season.

edit* I'm not saying It's all Ponder. Our line is bad in my opinion. A real glaring weakness. But that problem is compounded by Ponder's problems. All of this has nothing to do with our Defensive line and LB corps inability to fill lanes and stop the GB PACKERS TERRIBLE OFFENSIVE LINE from gashing us time and agian.

I agree. Teddy helps the oline look better by making quick decisions, hitting hot routes when needed, or sidestepping tacklers. He also makes the blitz less effective by making the other team pay when they do blitz. With Christian they can play coverage, which causes him some trouble because of his inaccuracy, or blitz him which is a total disaster. I think if we can sustain drives it will also help our defense quite a bit. We are still a few players away from being a very good defense, but we are headed in the right direction.

[720pete]

Well we should have an extra unanticipated $15 million in cap space next year to spend on free agents. Or should this go in the positive thread?

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