Rick and Zimmer both gone

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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by psjordan » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:57 am

Angels Wings wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:38 am
Yes...and it sounds like there may be resolution coming soon to the legal issues. Watson with Cook, Jefferson and Adam would be killer if it were to happen.
He's not closer to resolution, he's closer to clarity on how the case will proceed.

He is facing 22? lawsuits, 10? criminal complaints (although a little sketchy as to who has filed what) and possible commissioners exempt list (you can't play, practice or be at a facility).

The entire mess has dragged on, with no one reporting too much other than "investigations are ongoing". In theory they were talking about deposing witnesses for a grand jury "in January" but who knows.

The NFL won't determine exempt list until the legal tanglings are either completed or at least largely evident as to who did what. So it could be AFTER his "legal troubles" (before which no team in their right mind would risk playing him and forcing an NFL response) that he tacks on exempt list status. If a grand jury indicts him, guesses are that will put him on the exempt list. He stays there at least until legalities are concluded.

So Watson may not be available for another season (or more) if things go wicked sideways.

And although Watson did not play all the games, who does this statement remind you of?
"In the four years prior to Deshaun Watson, the Houston Texans were 29-35 and 1-2 in the playoffs. In the four years Watson played in Houston, the Texans were 29-35 and 1-2 in the playoffs."

Sure, Watson crushes the age and athleticism contest with Cousins. But neither one is an off-the-chart winner.

Unless it all clears up quickly - and charges dropped or settlements signed (which at least a handful of women refuse to sign to date) - I can't see even the most desperate new GM taking a chance, especially given the draft capital rumored to be required is still three number ones.

Maybe the grand jury fails to indict and it all blows away. But I doubt it.

And IMO there is zero chance a new GM will hang their hat on anything close to this type of transaction.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:05 am

Angels Wings wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:15 am
vikeinmontana wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:19 am


What resolution?

I’ve been trying to follow this situation as close as possible because I too, was a DW fan. But I can’t find anything showing his legal battles is even close to ending.

Do you have a link?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/revealed-nfl ... 30635.html

https://www.chron.com/sports/texans/art ... 761055.php
Interesting. Two women holding out are fine with the settlement amount but don't want to sign an NDA.

At the risk of sounding crass, I'll say this. Any time somebody agrees to a settlement but insists on being able to talk about it afterward, it gives the appearance of a person who's trying to milk their misfortune for every dollar they can.

I'm not saying Watson is innocent. Far from it. But if you're going to settle, then settle. If not, then follow through and take him to court. Of course, they don't want to go to court because if they lose, then nobody cares about their side of the story, and the offers dry up.

If you haven't guessed, I'm an optimist when it comes to the Vikings, and a pessimist when it comes to human nature. Personally, I think it's likely that Watson is a pig ... and a couple of these women want to get rich off it.

Thanks for the links.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:42 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:11 am


Picking any cherries. Cousins absolutely played well enough for us to win 11 games. you are so blind it's ridiculous.
https://twitter.com/ChadGraff/status/14 ... 4%2Frecent
Final 2021 QB stats. Kirk Cousins ranked 14th in EPA+CPOE, 13th in adjusted EPA/play, 22nd in success rate, 11th in completion percentage, 10th in yards per attempt, and 15th in QBR.
Keeeeeep diggggiiiiiiinggggggg Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:42 pm
Keeeeeep diggggiiiiiiinggggggg Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Again, no need to. 10 seasons, .500 record, 1 playoff win.

And you want more of that? :thumbsup:
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by CharVike » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:47 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:45 pm
StanM wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:05 pm


I think our defense would have performed better if the offense didn’t get bogged down with three and out for the entire half. There were a lot of games where the defense started out good for a quarter or so it couldn’t hold their finger in the dike waiting for the offense to put points on the board. The defense did have some vulnerabilities but they got worse as the games progressed in proportion to the success of an offense. I can only imagine going all out for a half and running out of juice with no points on the board. The defense was hardly on the sidelines long enough to talk to catch their breath. When that happens there isn’t enough strength and endurance training that’s going to help much.
The Vikings offense led the league in 3 and outs (53).

Some stats from reddit.
Did some digging into the offense and well… (self.minnesotavikings)

submitted 1 day ago by Welu522

Not good. Saw a lot of people saying we were top 5/10 this year.

No the hell we weren’t.

Anyways here’s some stats.

196 total drives (2nd), yet 13th total plays

12th yards

14th points

15th score %

17th epa

16th dvoa(12th pass, 27th rush)

27th plays per drive

19th yards per drive

28th time per drive

15th points per drive

15th points per play

25th 3rd down %

20th total 1st downs

25th successful play rate(17th pass, 28th run)

28th successful play rate on 3rd downs


https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesotavikin ... _and_well/
Does anyone think penalties come into play with any of these stats? Converting 3rd and 1 is much easier than 3rd and 20 which is almost impossible. We had the 2nd most holding calls with 26. The Rams had the least with 9. That a tremendous swing and of course it depends on when they happened. I recall us getting into some long situations based on holding calls. That bum we had a RG seemed to have a bunch of holding calls every game. Maybe I'm wrong and he didn't. Somebody did. The one that fit the best for us is our C had a tripping call that lead to a sack. Trip the guy right into the QB. That's almost laughable. A vagrant penalty that provides no benefit. Why is that still on the roster?
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:48 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:42 pm


Keeeeeep diggggiiiiiiinggggggg Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Again, no need to. 10 seasons, .500 record, 1 playoff win.

And you want more of that? :thumbsup:
You always dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. A QBs record isn't the all encompassing stat. He doesn't control all aspects of the team. Cousins is amazing by all the normal stats a person can find, but since you don't like those you dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:35 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:48 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am

Again, no need to. 10 seasons, .500 record, 1 playoff win.

And you want more of that? :thumbsup:
You always dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. A QBs record isn't the all encompassing stat. He doesn't control all aspects of the team. Cousins is amazing by all the normal stats a person can find, but since you don't like those you dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Normal stats...you mean the ones that you agree with versus the one that tell the whole story of why our QB is .500?
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by CharVike » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:47 pm

Angels Wings wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:15 am
vikeinmontana wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:19 am


What resolution?

I’ve been trying to follow this situation as close as possible because I too, was a DW fan. But I can’t find anything showing his legal battles is even close to ending.

Do you have a link?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/revealed-nfl ... 30635.html

https://www.chron.com/sports/texans/art ... 761055.php
A guy that won 4 games is going to take our current team to the Super Bowl. He must be far superior to Rodgers and Brady. That will cost at least 4 1st round picks. But he will take our squad with this D and OL to the Super Bowl. I wonder why nobody else thought of that.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:47 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:42 pm


Keeeeeep diggggiiiiiiinggggggg Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Again, no need to. 10 seasons, .500 record, 1 playoff win.

And you want more of that? :thumbsup:
Don’t you know?

It’s always somebody else’s fault.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by CharVike » Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:43 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:35 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:48 pm


You always dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. A QBs record isn't the all encompassing stat. He doesn't control all aspects of the team. Cousins is amazing by all the normal stats a person can find, but since you don't like those you dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Normal stats...you mean the ones that you agree with versus the one that tell the whole story of why our QB is .500?
A little-known fact: Through his first 104 starts — the number of games Cousins has started to date — Tarkenton’s quarterback record was 41-59-4 (.413). This span was 1961 from 1968, slightly before the Vikings defense really metamorphosized. Cousins record after 104 games is 51-51-2.

In the 104 starts after Tarkenton’s first 104, his team became upper-echelon. He tabulated a 64-39-1 (.620) in his “second” 104 starts.

This was by https://purpleptsd.com/current-fans-may ... ns-career/

Every QB needs something around him and yes that can be called finger pointing by the fans who think Cousins sucks but you do need players around you. Tark was on an expansion team which is basically what we have put out there the last couple seasons. No different. That's not finger pointing it's the truth and that's why Rick was shown the door. Outside people told the Wilf's our roster sucks. Not a single all pro on it after all his years drafting. Some will call JJ and Cook as stubbed but IMO they did it to themselves. The game when both needed to dominate the action against a very good team the Packers they both didn't do a dam thing. This was prime time.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:57 am

CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:43 am
Tark was on an expansion team which is basically what we have put out there the last couple seasons. No different.
If this Vikings team that is up against the cap with no real relief in sight is no better than an expansion team, we should trade/cut everyone and completely start over.

The lengths people go to make excuses for this .500 QB...
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:27 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:47 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am

Again, no need to. 10 seasons, .500 record, 1 playoff win.

And you want more of that? :thumbsup:
Don’t you know?

It’s always somebody else’s fault.
If the whole team played at Cousins level we would have a cake walk to winning it all.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by CharVike » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:20 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:57 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:43 am
Tark was on an expansion team which is basically what we have put out there the last couple seasons. No different.
If this Vikings team that is up against the cap with no real relief in sight is no better than an expansion team, we should trade/cut everyone and completely start over.

The lengths people go to make excuses for this .500 QB...
It's no length they were dead last in D we had that one in 2020. 2021 were were next to last. Just like our expansion team. No stretch at all. Our CAP can be cleared in a snap of the finger and the impact will be minimal. Even if we get that CAP you are like many thinking teams dump their best players. That's not how it works. Occasionally a star will be there. Reggie White was a FA. We may dump Danielle "that dog don't hunt" er because he is not living up to his CAP hit the last couple seasons.He's a terrific player but he also brings a high risk and that will need to be considered by any team that signs him. Like I just posted there are usually issues. Hunter is one of the best but not the last two seasons. Our new GM will need to make that determination if the CAP hit is worth the playing time issue. IMO it's a concern for us and any other team. I can't think of a top flight player we have lost in FA. A Harris but the Eagles aren't exactly saying how great this guy is. Maybe we lost an all pro G and/or C and that's why we have nothing now. I don't recall. Nothing jumps out as this great player we lost. We signed O'Neil no problem. I look at the current FA QB list and there's not too many 30 TD passers on it. Teams keep those guys unless they have an option in the hole. Dallas has that young guy who made a fool of Zim and they have a loser starter that has a high hit so maybe Dak will be out there. No they would trade him. See how that works. FA can be used to fill a hole. We filled our D that way and it wasn't the best approach IMO. Others might feel it worked great. That's ok it's an opinion. We signed PP and I guess he was Ok. Nothing stood out in my mind. He was a FA because his skills aren't what they were. Great CBs are to hard to come by. Teams keep those guys. See how it works now?
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:16 am

CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:20 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:57 am

If this Vikings team that is up against the cap with no real relief in sight is no better than an expansion team, we should trade/cut everyone and completely start over.

The lengths people go to make excuses for this .500 QB...
It's no length they were dead last in D we had that one in 2020. 2021 wepact will be minimal.
We weren't dead last in D in 2020 and weren't close in 2021. Scoring, the thing that impacts winning they were 28th in 2020, and tied for 21st with the #1 seed in the NFC in 2021. When the Vikings were 8th in scoring while Hunter and Griffen were still healthy, the Vikings were 3-4.
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Re: Rick and Zimmer both gone

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:47 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:16 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:20 pm

It's no length they were dead last in D we had that one in 2020. 2021 wepact will be minimal.
We weren't dead last in D in 2020 and weren't close in 2021. Scoring, the thing that impacts winning they were 28th in 2020, and tied for 21st with the #1 seed in the NFC in 2021. When the Vikings were 8th in scoring while Hunter and Griffen were still healthy, the Vikings were 3-4.
OK, is “not dead last” really the metric we’re after? The Vikings were in the bottom quarter in almost every meaningful defensive metric. You’re into advanced metrics, so you know this.

Defensively, I think the blame goes to both Spielman and Zimmer. If you look at the 22 defensive players drafted since 2018, only three — DJ Wonnum, Cameron Dantzler and Armon Watts — have played 1,000 or more total snaps. Only Wonnum has averaged more than 700 per season, the equivalent of 10 games.

That’s a combination of poor drafting (Spielman with help from Zimmer) and asking rookies to play in a complex system that requires you to read The Ilyad fluently in Greek when young players don’t even know the alphabet (Zimmer). Throw in tons of injuries to guys like Hunter, Barr, Pierce, and Kendricks, with no depth behind them in spite of drafting 15 players last year, and it’s not hard to see why both Zimmer and Spielman lost their jobs — and that’s only looking at the defense.
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