Cousins to start against Chicago

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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:14 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:00 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:51 am


Win now, or win in the future?

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take two forward.
I'll add one more point to this:

Zimmer said basically the time to evaluate rookies and young guys is during training camp and the preseason.

If so, once a team is out of the playoff picture, that team is in their offseason already and has a chance to get a head start on those evaluations. Why not? Why not start that work while the good teams battle it out? It gives you a head start on the next season, which is the only season where you can presumably get what you compete for all season which is a championship.

Zimmer's view on this is myopic IMHO. He's now gone and good riddance. He missed a real chance to see what Mond could or could not do yesterday. The fact that the Vikings won the game means nothing except a lower draft spot, and Zimmer is still gone either way.
I always hate to speculate on motives. But this reeks of a desperate attempt by Zimmer to save his job.

Either that, or he wanted to go out feeling good about a win. That sounds a lot less like Zimmer, but you never know.

Or it might just be that Zimmer is just that rigid ... my job is to win games. I'm doing my job.

No matter the motive, it was very short-sighted.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:20 pm
OK, I'm really interested.

Can somebody here actually justify Mike Zimmer NOT giving Justin Jefferson a chance to break the record on the Vikings' last possession?

I want this clown GONE. I hope they fire him before he leaves the building today.
Yes. Games are about winning or losing. Not about putting in a player to get a record.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:06 am

soflavike wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:50 pm
In the press conference after the game, Zimmer was asked if he knew how close JJ was to the record. He answered “Yes.”

Then, he added: “I don’t care about records. I only care about wins.”

Dick move, no class, good-bye, don’t let the door hit you in the a**.
I couldn't disagree with you more.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by CharVike » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:07 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:53 am
CharVike wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:39 pm

I agree with you. If they tried and JJ gets injured badly imagine the flak Zim would get for that. JJ should have many years in front to get records. He just better hope he has a guy that can get the ball to him playing QB.
Injured?

If that's the case, then JJ shouldn't even have been out there.

Sorry man. That's a ridiculous take.
I said if they go for the record and JJ gets injured then what? Players do get hurt. It probably wouldn't happen but what is the point to even risk that? The game was already wrapped up and they took a knee.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:08 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:51 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:30 am
The Vikings should be trying to win. Heck with trying to lose. Cousins gives us the best chance to win so of course he should be starting.
Win now, or win in the future?

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take two forward.
I will never be OK with playing not to win. No way no how. Playing Mond would not have helped us win a single game in the future. When Mond is the best QB on the team he should play. Until then he should hold a clipboard.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:10 am

CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:07 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:53 am

Injured?

If that's the case, then JJ shouldn't even have been out there.

Sorry man. That's a ridiculous take.
I said if they go for the record and JJ gets injured then what? Players do get hurt. It probably wouldn't happen but what is the point to even risk that? The game was already wrapped up and they took a knee.
100% agreement.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by psjordan » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:44 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am
Games are about winning or losing. Not about putting in a player to get a record.
I think you may be missing a HUGE connection between your two statements.

Records are important not only to individual players, but players on that side of the ball. And if the player is well-liked, it's important to the ENTIRE TEAM. Players will run through a brick wall for the right coach with the right approach. Players dig coaches that care about players. That in large part can be the difference in close games.

Zimmer may have been a "players coach" at some point, but CLEARLY that is no longer the case. You don't have to go too much further than his "not particularly" comment regarding if he wanted to see Mond play. Imagine being Mond - or anyone in the QB room - and hearing that from the HC?

There are dozens of ways to say "Mond ain't playing". Zimmer chose the most ridiculous, petulant way. Players don't dig that.

Forget any coaching prowess he might or might not possess, Zimmer had to go based on attitude alone.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by TSonn » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:04 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:51 pm
CharVike wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:39 pm

I agree with you. If they tried and JJ gets injured badly imagine the flak Zim would get for that. JJ should have many years in front to get records. He just better hope he has a guy that can get the ball to him playing QB.
And I think Zimmer was just showing respect for the game rather than an individual player. That's the problem with this whole team. A bunch of selfish individuals. Not saying JJ is selfish but the theme this year was definitely not "TEAM".
I think this sentiment is probably what was the root cause of Zimmer's downfall with the team. There's nothing wrong with this attitude and, IMO, it's generally the "right" attitude, but it shows a complete disconnect with specific situations and with players today.

Players want to win, yes, but they also want that individual glory when attainable. Even "old school" guys like Brady who put winning ahead of everything else want the individual records and understand the importance of individual records. A coach has to be able to navigate the goal of winning with individual accomplishments and Zimmer clearly never figured that out.

The follow-up question to Zimmer saying "I don't care about records. I only care about wins" was "Did he [JJ] care about the record?" and Zimmer said "I don't know - maybe - you'll have to ask him." Pure garbage answer by Zimmer there. If we're risking the starter's health and safety in a meaningless game, why wouldn't Zim at least ask the biggest star on the team what he wanted out of the game?

Winning was not important yesterday. In fact, it put us in a worse position as a team/franchise. Winning was only important to Zimmer's personal "legacy" as he most likely knew it was his last game as coach. So he put his personal accomplishment above the players and the team yesterday (all while putting our future starters at risk of injury). Just a real bummer move which looks fine on the outside but was absolutely a dick move knowing the entire context.
Last edited by TSonn on Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:05 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:08 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:51 am


Win now, or win in the future?

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take two forward.
I will never be OK with playing not to win. No way no how. Playing Mond would not have helped us win a single game in the future. When Mond is the best QB on the team he should play. Until then he should hold a clipboard.
Evaluating your early 3rd round QB in game conditions helps the team understand a lot about that player going forward, which in turn helps them understand if he's a viable potential starter in the near future, which in turn helps them understand what, if anything, they need to do at the QB position in the draft and free agency.

Zimmer played for yesterday. He won for yesterday. He's gone for today and for tomorrow. In my opinion, what we saw so clearly yesterday is what was always under the covers with Zimmer during his entire tenure. He was predictable, arrogant, and inflexible. These traits led to his overall poor record against winning teams, because his better opponents understood him and how to beat him as a result.

Cousins is much like him in that regard minus the arrogance. Like Zimmer, though, he's predictable and inflexible as well, and as a result he's also fairly easy for better opponents to deal with.

He'll be gone too. Maye not sooner than later, mostly because the new GM and coach need to make those decisions, but he's up next.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:14 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:20 pm
OK, I'm really interested.

Can somebody here actually justify Mike Zimmer NOT giving Justin Jefferson a chance to break the record on the Vikings' last possession?

I want this clown GONE. I hope they fire him before he leaves the building today.
Yes. Games are about winning or losing. Not about putting in a player to get a record.
Tell me how those two things are mutually exclusive.

There’s 4 minutes to go. You’ve got a 14-point lead. You’re in plus territory. It’s third and long. And you hand the ball off to your third-string tailback? How is that playing to win? How about putting more points on the board?

And don’t give me “could’ve been a pick-6.” You’re the biggest Cousins fan on the planet.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:16 pm

psjordan wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:44 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am
Games are about winning or losing. Not about putting in a player to get a record.
I think you may be missing a HUGE connection between your two statements.

Records are important not only to individual players, but players on that side of the ball. And if the player is well-liked, it's important to the ENTIRE TEAM. Players will run through a brick wall for the right coach with the right approach. Players dig coaches that care about players. That in large part can be the difference in close games.

Zimmer may have been a "players coach" at some point, but CLEARLY that is no longer the case. You don't have to go too much further than his "not particularly" comment regarding if he wanted to see Mond play. Imagine being Mond - or anyone in the QB room - and hearing that from the HC?

There are dozens of ways to say "Mond ain't playing". Zimmer chose the most ridiculous, petulant way. Players don't dig that.

Forget any coaching prowess he might or might not possess, Zimmer had to go based on attitude alone.
Zimmer was better than average IMO. Odds are whoever replaces him is not as good. We might get lucky though.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:20 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:14 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am

Yes. Games are about winning or losing. Not about putting in a player to get a record.
Tell me how those two things are mutually exclusive.

There’s 4 minutes to go. You’ve got a 14-point lead. You’re in plus territory. It’s third and long. And you hand the ball off to your third-string tailback? How is that playing to win? How about putting more points on the board?

And don’t give me “could’ve been a pick-6.” You’re the biggest Cousins fan on the planet.
I think Cousins is a very good QB. What record could Jefferson have possibly got anyway? Didn't he already get the most yards first two years record. If it's a smart play than throw to Jefferson. Don't force it. Records should happen as a part of the regular game plan.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:31 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:20 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:14 pm

Tell me how those two things are mutually exclusive.

There’s 4 minutes to go. You’ve got a 14-point lead. You’re in plus territory. It’s third and long. And you hand the ball off to your third-string tailback? How is that playing to win? How about putting more points on the board?

And don’t give me “could’ve been a pick-6.” You’re the biggest Cousins fan on the planet.
I think Cousins is a very good QB. What record could Jefferson have possibly got anyway? Didn't he already get the most yards first two years record. If it's a smart play than throw to Jefferson. Don't force it. Records should happen as a part of the regular game plan.
You honestly don’t know? Did you actually watch the game?

Jefferson was 17 yards from breaking Randy Moss’s record for most receiving yards in a season. The announcers talked about it non-stop during the telecast.

Four minutes. Two possessions. Seventeen yards. Every fan, player, media member and beer vendor knew how close JJ was to that record. It was Zimmer’s great big FU on the way out to Jefferson, Spielman, Vikings fans, and the entire organization.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:41 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:31 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:20 pm

I think Cousins is a very good QB. What record could Jefferson have possibly got anyway? Didn't he already get the most yards first two years record. If it's a smart play than throw to Jefferson. Don't force it. Records should happen as a part of the regular game plan.
You honestly don’t know? Did you actually watch the game?

Jefferson was 17 yards from breaking Randy Moss’s record for most receiving yards in a season. The announcers talked about it non-stop during the telecast.

Four minutes. Two possessions. Seventeen yards. Every fan, player, media member and beer vendor knew how close JJ was to that record. It was Zimmer’s great big FU on the way out to Jefferson, Spielman, Vikings fans, and the entire organization.
No I didn't watch the game. Didn't you consider the game meaningless? Why is it an FU to JJ? It isn't Zimmer's job to help his WR break an old team record. It's his job to help his team win games. He did just that.

I'd rather have Moss keep the record anyway. Jefferson had an extra game and IMO watching them both play Jefferson can't hold a candle to Moss.
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Re: Cousins to start against Chicago

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:09 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:41 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:31 pm

You honestly don’t know? Did you actually watch the game?

Jefferson was 17 yards from breaking Randy Moss’s record for most receiving yards in a season. The announcers talked about it non-stop during the telecast.

Four minutes. Two possessions. Seventeen yards. Every fan, player, media member and beer vendor knew how close JJ was to that record. It was Zimmer’s great big FU on the way out to Jefferson, Spielman, Vikings fans, and the entire organization.
No I didn't watch the game. Didn't you consider the game meaningless? Why is it an FU to JJ? It isn't Zimmer's job to help his WR break an old team record. It's his job to help his team win games. He did just that.

I'd rather have Moss keep the record anyway. Jefferson had an extra game and IMO watching them both play Jefferson can't hold a candle to Moss.
I see. You have no idea what’s going on, so you pivot to telling us what you’d prefer. I’d prefer to have a winter home in Palm Beach instead of Scottsdale. Can’t afford either. Do you care? Guess what. Neither do I when it comes to your preference for Moss.

Word of advice. Don’t play expert on topics for which your knowledge is lacking.
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