The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:47 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:44 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:11 pm

I would love to bet you on this, but my wife would likely divorce me. Not sure if her problem would be the gambling or that she’s as down on the Cousins idea as you are. :lol:

Seriously, we need to refer back to this post in a few months. Depends on who the coach is, I suppose. But I’d be surprised if he doesn’t get traded.
Kapp I hope you are right, but I fear that VL's line of reasoning is spot on here. People are speculating that the Steelers, Broncos, Saints, even the 49ers are potential trade partners for Kirk. I don't see it. Those franchises aren't a stupid as we were and there is more data now (than when we made the signing) confirming that Cousins can't hang with the big boys and has a terrible record against teams with winning records.

I really hope Rick gets fired or at least has his power mitigated by assuming another role and making way for a new GM. I am tired of Zimm, but I am also SUPER tired of the Ricker.
Here’s the difference. VL is speculating. I’m going by what I read. Those people are also speculating, but they have access to people who know a lot more than we do.

That’s not to say the Vikings WILL trade Cousins. Anything can happen. The new coach might want him, which would be the most influential factor. Maybe the Vikings will ask too much in return. But from what I read from reliable sources, there will be interest.

And the one thing that does make sense to speculate — he’ll either be traded or extended. Allowing him to play as a lame duck is not something a new coach is going to stand for. We don’t have a Patrick Mahomes waiting to take over. Every head coaching candidate knows his future is tied at the hip to his plan for a quarterback. Look at the coaches hired recently. Guys like Brandon Staley and Sean McDermott are secure because they walked into a good quarterback situation. Meanwhile guys like Matt Rhule and Joe Judge are in hot water, in large part because they’ve floundered at the game’s most important position.

If the Vikings’ new coach believes in Cousins, then he’s going to want to lock him up long term. If not, then the Vikings will want to get something for him, even if they have to take on a significant chunk of his 2022 salary. That’s what Philly did with Carson Wentz.

This has little to do with whether any other teams would want Kirk Cousins. Too many people in the know have said that’s the case. The sticking point isn’t going to be Cousins’ play. It’s his 2022 cap number. So this is more about what the Vikings want, and how far they’re willing to go to get it done. If the Vikings want to move on from Cousins, they may very well be willing to pay some or all of his 2022 salary in exchange for valuable draft picks.

Bottom line: This is going to depend on who the coach and GM are, and what their vision for the team is.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Texas Vike » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:14 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:47 am
Texas Vike wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:44 pm


Kapp I hope you are right, but I fear that VL's line of reasoning is spot on here. People are speculating that the Steelers, Broncos, Saints, even the 49ers are potential trade partners for Kirk. I don't see it. Those franchises aren't a stupid as we were and there is more data now (than when we made the signing) confirming that Cousins can't hang with the big boys and has a terrible record against teams with winning records.

I really hope Rick gets fired or at least has his power mitigated by assuming another role and making way for a new GM. I am tired of Zimm, but I am also SUPER tired of the Ricker.
Here’s the difference. VL is speculating. I’m going by what I read. Those people are also speculating, but they have access to people who know a lot more than we do.

That’s not to say the Vikings WILL trade Cousins. Anything can happen. The new coach might want him, which would be the most influential factor. Maybe the Vikings will ask too much in return. But from what I read from reliable sources, there will be interest.

And the one thing that does make sense to speculate — he’ll either be traded or extended. Allowing him to play as a lame duck is not something a new coach is going to stand for. We don’t have a Patrick Mahomes waiting to take over. Every head coaching candidate knows his future is tied at the hip to his plan for a quarterback. Look at the coaches hired recently. Guys like Brandon Staley and Sean McDermott are secure because they walked into a good quarterback situation. Meanwhile guys like Matt Rhule and Joe Judge are in hot water, in large part because they’ve floundered at the game’s most important position.

If the Vikings’ new coach believes in Cousins, then he’s going to want to lock him up long term. If not, then the Vikings will want to get something for him, even if they have to take on a significant chunk of his 2022 salary. That’s what Philly did with Carson Wentz.

This has little to do with whether any other teams would want Kirk Cousins. Too many people in the know have said that’s the case. The sticking point isn’t going to be Cousins’ play. It’s his 2022 cap number. So this is more about what the Vikings want, and how far they’re willing to go to get it done. If the Vikings want to move on from Cousins, they may very well be willing to pay some or all of his 2022 salary in exchange for valuable draft picks.

Bottom line: This is going to depend on who the coach and GM are, and what their vision for the team is.
Fair enough. I, too, have watched Skor North (I see echoes of Judd and Mackey in your posts) and have seen Judd's assurances that Kirk would bring in a 1st rd. pick. I just have a hard time believing that a team would look at his W/L record vs. winning teams and say, that's a guy that will take us over the top. Let's pay a first round pick and boat loads of money for him! I mean, fool me once, shame on you fool me twice.... the NFL has been fooled twice now (Wash and MN) by the Cousins mirage.

But you know what else wouldn't surprise me, because it would be QUINTESSENTIAL Vikings? That Cousins gets traded to, say, SF or NO and walks into a situation where the coach and GM have a HOLISTIC VISION for the franchise and give him what he needs to succeed: amazing OL protection, and offense that is built around HIS strengths and constructed to hide his weaknesses, and he starts to change the narrative. Kirk begins to beat winning teams, because, lo and behold, Football IS, after all, a team sport.

The question is could WE do that with Kirk? Could a new GM and coach mold a team around him that would have success and take over the North. If Rodgers leaves GB, this division is suddenly up for grabs. The Vikes could go into a major rebuild and be ready to be serious contenders in 2-3 years. But if certain contingencies come to fruition (Rodgers leaves, we make smart hires @ GM and coach who have a vision that maximizes what we already have and quickly acquires talent where we currently lack it (CB and OG, primarily) I could see us turning the ship around more quickly than some might imagine here :smilevike:

Fun to speculate with you all. I'm just ready for some fresh air with this franchise. The clock is ticking, and I've been following this team for almost 5 decades now. Please, just once before I pass!
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by CharVike » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:38 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:35 pm
CharVike wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:15 pm
I think Cousins has trade value. Some of these GM/coaches are in a bind and have zero chance of making the playoffs with what they currently have and they have a playoff core. They need to do something or they will get fired. The Panthers can't go with what they have. Darnold and Newton take them off the table. Their fans are getting pissed. In Denver another fall back Teddy type won't cut it again. Teams and coaches know what Cousins is and isn't. He's no secret. Players know what he is as a teammate/person. I'm sure some hate him. No different than any other work environment. We will get something for him but I have no idea what it will be. Hopefully Speilman isn't doing the deal. He's a sucker and can be talked into anything. Then we will be back on the revolving stiffs at QB again. Hopefully the cycle will be shorter. I don't have 30 years to wait.
I hate to break it to you but Cousins will be sitting at home for the second straight season just like Darnold, Teddy, Carr and all the other QBs who just aren't good enough.

It is no sure thing that Cousins joins a good team and that team makes the playoff, as evidenced by 2018.
I don't care what Cousins does once he's gone. I care that we get as much as possible for him. Broncos and Panthers might be happy with what they have or they may have other players in mind. It was only my take on possible teams that will be looking. Cousins might stay here another year or a lifetime for all I know. He and his agent are smart people, 45 million worth, I'm sure he has his deal structured in a way that best fits Cousins life style and plans.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Mothman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:44 pm

I'm late to the conversation but this thread has been a great read.

I feel compelled to push back (gently) on one point: Kapp's assertion that the Zimmer era went off the rails when Bridgewater suffered such a horrible injury. I say "gently" because I don't dispute that Zimmer loved Teddy Bridgewater. He clearly did (and does) but I'd argue that's one of the reasons this thing was never truly on track. Zimmer fell for the wrong QB, matched him to the wrong coordinator and revealed from the start that his real philosophy regarding offense was essentially "let someone else worry about it". If Bridgewater had remained healthy, it seems likely things would have played out much as they have anyway, with the Vikes chasing GB most of the time and making intermittent playoff appearances in seasons where their defense and running game worked well enough to earn them a wildcard or (as in 2017) when Rodgers missed significant time.

The Wilfs fell for the wrong guy too, perhaps two of them: Zimmer and Spielman. They've squandered 8 seasons chasing a Super Bowl dream with a coach and GM who lack the vision to deliver it. Zimmer's shortcomings were readily apparent by the end of his first two seasons. I wish the Wilfs had been able to see that and move on. We might have missed out of the fun 2017 season but who knows, maybe the Vikes would have achieved a greater level of success.

I just hope we're about to enter a new, more exciting and ultimately more successful era of Vikings football.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:35 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:44 pm
I'm late to the conversation but this thread has been a great read.

I feel compelled to push back (gently) on one point: Kapp's assertion that the Zimmer era went off the rails when Bridgewater suffered such a horrible injury. I say "gently" because I don't dispute that Zimmer loved Teddy Bridgewater. He clearly did (and does) but I'd argue that's one of the reasons this thing was never truly on track. Zimmer fell for the wrong QB, matched him to the wrong coordinator and revealed from the start that his real philosophy regarding offense was essentially "let someone else worry about it". If Bridgewater had remained healthy, it seems likely things would have played out much as they have anyway, with the Vikes chasing GB most of the time and making intermittent playoff appearances in seasons where their defense and running game worked well enough to earn them a wildcard or (as in 2017) when Rodgers missed significant time.

The Wilfs fell for the wrong guy too, perhaps two of them: Zimmer and Spielman. They've squandered 8 seasons chasing a Super Bowl dream with a coach and GM who lack the vision to deliver it. Zimmer's shortcomings were readily apparent by the end of his first two seasons. I wish the Wilfs had been able to see that and move on. We might have missed out of the fun 2017 season but who knows, maybe the Vikes would have achieved a greater level of success.

I just hope we're about to enter a new, more exciting and ultimately more successful era of Vikings football.
What were Zimmer's shortcomings that were readily apparent after his first two seasons where he took a 5 win team with the worst D in the NFL to an 11 win team a chip shot away from moving on to the divisional round?

Seems like a bit of revisionist history to me, especially since 2 years after that he had a backup QB in the NFCCG after winning the second most regular season games in franchise history.

He doesn't have it anymore, and it is time to move on, but he had some really good years in MN, and if he had had a Wilson or Big Ben like Carrol or Tomlin had I think he wins a SB here, just like those two defensive minded head coaches.

Let's not change history to make ourselves feel better about firing Zimmer. Missing the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years with no real vision for how to get better is a good enough reason to fire him. We don't need anything else.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Mothman » Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:59 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:35 pm
Mothman wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:44 pm
I'm late to the conversation but this thread has been a great read.

I feel compelled to push back (gently) on one point: Kapp's assertion that the Zimmer era went off the rails when Bridgewater suffered such a horrible injury. I say "gently" because I don't dispute that Zimmer loved Teddy Bridgewater. He clearly did (and does) but I'd argue that's one of the reasons this thing was never truly on track. Zimmer fell for the wrong QB, matched him to the wrong coordinator and revealed from the start that his real philosophy regarding offense was essentially "let someone else worry about it". If Bridgewater had remained healthy, it seems likely things would have played out much as they have anyway, with the Vikes chasing GB most of the time and making intermittent playoff appearances in seasons where their defense and running game worked well enough to earn them a wildcard or (as in 2017) when Rodgers missed significant time.

The Wilfs fell for the wrong guy too, perhaps two of them: Zimmer and Spielman. They've squandered 8 seasons chasing a Super Bowl dream with a coach and GM who lack the vision to deliver it. Zimmer's shortcomings were readily apparent by the end of his first two seasons. I wish the Wilfs had been able to see that and move on. We might have missed out of the fun 2017 season but who knows, maybe the Vikes would have achieved a greater level of success.

I just hope we're about to enter a new, more exciting and ultimately more successful era of Vikings football.
What were Zimmer's shortcomings that were readily apparent after his first two seasons where he took a 5 win team with the worst D in the NFL to an 11 win team a chip shot away from moving on to the divisional round?

Seems like a bit of revisionist history to me, especially since 2 years after that he had a backup QB in the NFCCG after winning the second most regular season games in franchise history.

He doesn't have it anymore, and it is time to move on, but he had some really good years in MN, and if he had had a Wilson or Big Ben like Carrol or Tomlin had I think he wins a SB here, just like those two defensive minded head coaches.

Let's not change history to make ourselves feel better about firing Zimmer. Missing the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years with no real vision for how to get better is a good enough reason to fire him. We don't need anything else.
It’s not revisionist history and I’m not changing a thing, although I did intend to write “… a wildcard or division title”. I’ve never felt good about Zimmer. I’ve wanted to see him replaced for years. Those who were here in his early years as HC will probably recall I was saying these things back then. His shortcomings were clear to me: overly conservative, no vision for the offense, excessive faith in a mediocre young QB he’d mismatched with his OC, etc. His tendency toward nepotism was already apparent too and I expressed concern back in 2014-15 that the Vikes may have hired another Marvin Lewis or, at best, Dennis Green.

From the start, he’s been a glorified defensive coordinator, focused on that side of the ball to the detriment of the team as a whole. Yes, he had a few good seasons in Minnesota (2017 was really fun!) but he was never going to win a Super Bowl, with or without a Wilson or Big Ben. More often than not, he was out-coached against teams with comparable talent levels and again and again over his tenure, we saw flat performances at inopportune times, defensive breakdowns when his vaunted defenses needed to seal victories. He and his defensive scheme always had a ceiling and once that became obvious the Vikings should have moved on. Instead, they hung on, believing they were closer to the prize than they really were.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:21 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:44 pm
I'm late to the conversation but this thread has been a great read.

I feel compelled to push back (gently) on one point: Kapp's assertion that the Zimmer era went off the rails when Bridgewater suffered such a horrible injury. I say "gently" because I don't dispute that Zimmer loved Teddy Bridgewater. He clearly did (and does) but I'd argue that's one of the reasons this thing was never truly on track. Zimmer fell for the wrong QB, matched him to the wrong coordinator and revealed from the start that his real philosophy regarding offense was essentially "let someone else worry about it". If Bridgewater had remained healthy, it seems likely things would have played out much as they have anyway, with the Vikes chasing GB most of the time and making intermittent playoff appearances in seasons where their defense and running game worked well enough to earn them a wildcard or (as in 2017) when Rodgers missed significant time.
i understand that your premise is that Zimmer was never the right coach and Teddy was never the right quarterback. You’re perfectly entitled to that opinion.

But the facts are that the Vikings won the division in 2015 and 2017. In my opinion, the Packers were never going to win the division in ‘17 even with Rodgers. The Vikings’ defense was far too good. Teddy wasn’t great in ‘15, but Zimmer had a great relationship with him. It’s MY position, as I’ve stated many times, that the head coach/quarterback relationship is the most important in football.

Mike Zimmer fundamentally changed as a coach when Bridgewater went down. For one thing, he became even more abrasive than normal, which didn’t sit well with some players and made him very unpopular in the building. He also never trusted anybody under center after that, and his coaching reflected it. You say his idea of coaching offense was to let someone else worry about it. I agree … the problem is that after Teddy, he got more and more involved with the offense, when it would have been better if he’d just stayed out of the way.

In short, I believe Mike Zimmer had a fire in his belly until Teddy went down. Since then, it’s been a slow spiral downward. We’ve seen the worst of it the past few weeks … the drain always circles faster at the bottom.

Anyway, it’s probably much ado about nothing. No matter how we choose to view history, Mike Zimmer is likely to be unemployed come tomorrow.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by CharVike » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:49 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:14 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:47 am

Here’s the difference. VL is speculating. I’m going by what I read. Those people are also speculating, but they have access to people who know a lot more than we do.

That’s not to say the Vikings WILL trade Cousins. Anything can happen. The new coach might want him, which would be the most influential factor. Maybe the Vikings will ask too much in return. But from what I read from reliable sources, there will be interest.

And the one thing that does make sense to speculate — he’ll either be traded or extended. Allowing him to play as a lame duck is not something a new coach is going to stand for. We don’t have a Patrick Mahomes waiting to take over. Every head coaching candidate knows his future is tied at the hip to his plan for a quarterback. Look at the coaches hired recently. Guys like Brandon Staley and Sean McDermott are secure because they walked into a good quarterback situation. Meanwhile guys like Matt Rhule and Joe Judge are in hot water, in large part because they’ve floundered at the game’s most important position.

If the Vikings’ new coach believes in Cousins, then he’s going to want to lock him up long term. If not, then the Vikings will want to get something for him, even if they have to take on a significant chunk of his 2022 salary. That’s what Philly did with Carson Wentz.

This has little to do with whether any other teams would want Kirk Cousins. Too many people in the know have said that’s the case. The sticking point isn’t going to be Cousins’ play. It’s his 2022 cap number. So this is more about what the Vikings want, and how far they’re willing to go to get it done. If the Vikings want to move on from Cousins, they may very well be willing to pay some or all of his 2022 salary in exchange for valuable draft picks.

Bottom line: This is going to depend on who the coach and GM are, and what their vision for the team is.
Fair enough. I, too, have watched Skor North (I see echoes of Judd and Mackey in your posts) and have seen Judd's assurances that Kirk would bring in a 1st rd. pick. I just have a hard time believing that a team would look at his W/L record vs. winning teams and say, that's a guy that will take us over the top. Let's pay a first round pick and boat loads of money for him! I mean, fool me once, shame on you fool me twice.... the NFL has been fooled twice now (Wash and MN) by the Cousins mirage.

But you know what else wouldn't surprise me, because it would be QUINTESSENTIAL Vikings? That Cousins gets traded to, say, SF or NO and walks into a situation where the coach and GM have a HOLISTIC VISION for the franchise and give him what he needs to succeed: amazing OL protection, and offense that is built around HIS strengths and constructed to hide his weaknesses, and he starts to change the narrative. Kirk begins to beat winning teams, because, lo and behold, Football IS, after all, a team sport.

The question is could WE do that with Kirk? Could a new GM and coach mold a team around him that would have success and take over the North. If Rodgers leaves GB, this division is suddenly up for grabs. The Vikes could go into a major rebuild and be ready to be serious contenders in 2-3 years. But if certain contingencies come to fruition (Rodgers leaves, we make smart hires @ GM and coach who have a vision that maximizes what we already have and quickly acquires talent where we currently lack it (CB and OG, primarily) I could see us turning the ship around more quickly than some might imagine here :smilevike:

Fun to speculate with you all. I'm just ready for some fresh air with this franchise. The clock is ticking, and I've been following this team for almost 5 decades now. Please, just once before I pass!
the NFL has been fooled twice now (Wash and MN) by the Cousins mirage. Wash hasn't been to the playoffs since Cousins left. Sorry they were 7-9 and got in and couldn't play. When we could still play some D Cousins took us to the playoffs and we beat a HOF winner in his own backyard. An OT victory against a winning team. He was a big underdog. The media says he never wins as an underdog. I give the team credit for that win. Not Cousins. They all needed to play not one guy. I seen Rodgers get beat in the playoffs over and over. Did he all the sudden suck? No the team got beat. They didn't control the point. Kirk isn't a HOFer but he isn't Joe Webb either. Rodgers isn't going anywhere. I posted a few years ago that he was out. He'll be there another decade. But he can be beat. It's not like he wins the Super Bowl every year. That team as a whole isn't good enough to dominate. They have the best QB in the NFC and perhaps the game. That's a tremendous advantage. But there D isn't good enough to take a game over against a top team. Their OL can get kicked and then Rodgers won't play good. Cousins beat them this year. He elevated us. When he didn't play we couldn't move the ball. Our D sucked in both games which made it harder to win regardless of the QB. At least with check down Kirk we could score. I've been following since 1970. As I get old the games don't piss me off anymore. It was good to see us beat the Bears. It was good to see some young step up. Our two young DEs can get after the passer. They have trouble with the run but that goes across the board on this team. We don't have a DT because we F'ed Up using big bucks in FA for some cast off. Sometimes FA don't work which I hate building that way. Players are FA for a reason. Usually it's not a good reason. I know if we go total rebuild and put Mond in at QB or some other stiff on the roster I won't live long enough to see a Super Bowl again. We need a guy with talent at QB and by that I mean passing talent. Kirk has talent and throws a dam nice ball. The media says he can't move. I seen him break the crumbling pocket yesterday and complete a long pass to our rookie WR. It's not Lamar speed but it's not like he's stuck on the ground either. If they trade him they trade him. Nothing I can do. Jefferson will be happy watching some young guy try and figure it out. We have a pick of 3 for next stiff up.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:32 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:21 pm
i understand that your premise is that Zimmer was never the right coach and Teddy was never the right quarterback. You’re perfectly entitled to that opinion.

But the facts are that the Vikings won the division in 2015 and 2017. In my opinion, the Packers were never going to win the division in ‘17 even with Rodgers. The Vikings’ defense was far too good. Teddy wasn’t great in ‘15, but Zimmer had a great relationship with him. It’s MY position, as I’ve stated many times, that the head coach/quarterback relationship is the most important in football
I don't disagree with you about that. It's obviously critically important.

You may be right about the 2017 season too. Zimmer's defense peaked that year.

The two division titles aren't really relevant to the opinion I expressed above. As you may recall, my concern about Zimmer from the start was that he'd be a Marvin Lewis type, the kind of coach who could field competitive teams and win the occasional division title or playoff game but whose shortcomings would consign the Vikings to the kind of competitive purgatory they ended up in on his watch: good enough to make things interesting but never good enough to reach, much less win, the Super Bowl.

Of course, Spielman had a lot to do with that too.
Mike Zimmer fundamentally changed as a coach when Bridgewater went down. For one thing, he became even more abrasive than normal, which didn’t sit well with some players and made him very unpopular in the building. He also never trusted anybody under center after that, and his coaching reflected it. You say his idea of coaching offense was to let someone else worry about it. I agree … the problem is that after Teddy, he got more and more involved with the offense, when it would have been better if he’d just stayed out of the way.
That abrasive nature was reportedly one of the reasons Zimmer hadn't received a head coaching opportunity in the past so it was another shortcoming apparent from the start and you're right, it reared its head and became more of a problem after Bridgewater's injury.
In short, I believe Mike Zimmer had a fire in his belly until Teddy went down. Since then, it’s been a slow spiral downward. We’ve seen the worst of it the past few weeks … the drain always circles faster at the bottom.

Anyway, it’s probably much ado about nothing. No matter how we choose to view history, Mike Zimmer is likely to be unemployed come tomorrow.
True.

I just had to say something because to me, allowing Zimmer to coach the team for 8 years was a serious mistake by the Vikings. As you know, many of us here (including you and I) have been waiting a very long time to see the Vikings win a Super Bowl so it's no small thing to me that the team wasted quite a few seasons on a coach who should have been replaced sooner. We can debate how many seasons were squandered but as you said, no matter how each of us choose to view history, Mike Zimmer is likely gone. The proverbial page is about to be turned. Let's hope we're about to enter the best era of Vikings football.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Texas Vike » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:44 am

Moth:

Nice to see you posting here. The board is better when you engage in the discussions!

Who do you want to see hired as the next coach of the MN Vikings? Do you think the Wilfs will slide Rick into a "senior' leadership/ consultant role, making way for a new GM as well? If so, anyone you like in that role? I have a busy day w/ work today, but I'll be paying attention to the news when I can. It's a huge day for the franchise, and hope springs eternal. :v):
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:13 am

CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:49 am
Texas Vike wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:14 am


Fair enough. I, too, have watched Skor North (I see echoes of Judd and Mackey in your posts) and have seen Judd's assurances that Kirk would bring in a 1st rd. pick. I just have a hard time believing that a team would look at his W/L record vs. winning teams and say, that's a guy that will take us over the top. Let's pay a first round pick and boat loads of money for him! I mean, fool me once, shame on you fool me twice.... the NFL has been fooled twice now (Wash and MN) by the Cousins mirage.

But you know what else wouldn't surprise me, because it would be QUINTESSENTIAL Vikings? That Cousins gets traded to, say, SF or NO and walks into a situation where the coach and GM have a HOLISTIC VISION for the franchise and give him what he needs to succeed: amazing OL protection, and offense that is built around HIS strengths and constructed to hide his weaknesses, and he starts to change the narrative. Kirk begins to beat winning teams, because, lo and behold, Football IS, after all, a team sport.

The question is could WE do that with Kirk? Could a new GM and coach mold a team around him that would have success and take over the North. If Rodgers leaves GB, this division is suddenly up for grabs. The Vikes could go into a major rebuild and be ready to be serious contenders in 2-3 years. But if certain contingencies come to fruition (Rodgers leaves, we make smart hires @ GM and coach who have a vision that maximizes what we already have and quickly acquires talent where we currently lack it (CB and OG, primarily) I could see us turning the ship around more quickly than some might imagine here :smilevike:

Fun to speculate with you all. I'm just ready for some fresh air with this franchise. The clock is ticking, and I've been following this team for almost 5 decades now. Please, just once before I pass!
the NFL has been fooled twice now (Wash and MN) by the Cousins mirage. Wash hasn't been to the playoffs since Cousins left. Sorry they were 7-9 and got in and couldn't play.
They were more competitive against the eventual SB champs in that single playoff game than they were in 2016 with Cousins in the playoffs.

I think if you talked with most Washington fans, they would take Cousins back as a cheap, bridge QB, while they look for their QBOTF, but their isn't an fanbase in the NFL who would actually be excited about having Cousins as their QB.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:18 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:32 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:21 pm
i understand that your premise is that Zimmer was never the right coach and Teddy was never the right quarterback. You’re perfectly entitled to that opinion.

But the facts are that the Vikings won the division in 2015 and 2017. In my opinion, the Packers were never going to win the division in ‘17 even with Rodgers. The Vikings’ defense was far too good. Teddy wasn’t great in ‘15, but Zimmer had a great relationship with him. It’s MY position, as I’ve stated many times, that the head coach/quarterback relationship is the most important in football
I don't disagree with you about that. It's obviously critically important.

You may be right about the 2017 season too. Zimmer's defense peaked that year.

The two division titles aren't really relevant to the opinion I expressed above. As you may recall, my concern about Zimmer from the start was that he'd be a Marvin Lewis type, the kind of coach who could field competitive teams and win the occasional division title or playoff game but whose shortcomings would consign the Vikings to the kind of competitive purgatory they ended up in on his watch: good enough to make things interesting but never good enough to reach, much less win, the Super Bowl.

Of course, Spielman had a lot to do with that too.
Mike Zimmer fundamentally changed as a coach when Bridgewater went down. For one thing, he became even more abrasive than normal, which didn’t sit well with some players and made him very unpopular in the building. He also never trusted anybody under center after that, and his coaching reflected it. You say his idea of coaching offense was to let someone else worry about it. I agree … the problem is that after Teddy, he got more and more involved with the offense, when it would have been better if he’d just stayed out of the way.
That abrasive nature was reportedly one of the reasons Zimmer hadn't received a head coaching opportunity in the past so it was another shortcoming apparent from the start and you're right, it reared its head and became more of a problem after Bridgewater's injury.
In short, I believe Mike Zimmer had a fire in his belly until Teddy went down. Since then, it’s been a slow spiral downward. We’ve seen the worst of it the past few weeks … the drain always circles faster at the bottom.

Anyway, it’s probably much ado about nothing. No matter how we choose to view history, Mike Zimmer is likely to be unemployed come tomorrow.
True.

I just had to say something because to me, allowing Zimmer to coach the team for 8 years was a serious mistake by the Vikings. As you know, many of us here (including you and I) have been waiting a very long time to see the Vikings win a Super Bowl so it's no small thing to me that the team wasted quite a few seasons on a coach who should have been replaced sooner. We can debate how many seasons were squandered but as you said, no matter how each of us choose to view history, Mike Zimmer is likely gone. The proverbial page is about to be turned. Let's hope we're about to enter the best era of Vikings football.
Gotcha. Good stuff.

I, of course, thought differently in the beginning. After watching the Vikings' defense fall to the bottom of the pack in the early 2010s, I was happy to have a guy who could stop the other team. If you remember, the rules for offense were getting more lenient at that time, but they weren't quite the flag-footballesaue nature they are now. I believed at the time that Mike Zimmer was the right man for the job, and having won a division championship in just his second year, I'd say my belief was vindicated in the beginning. And his former players — they RAVED about him.

As it turns out, I was wrong in the long run. Zimmer ended up being the abrasive curmudgeon that other GMs had said he was. And as head coach, he found out that he couldn't just coddle his defensive guys while ignoring the offense, as he did as a DC. Funny how virtually ALL the Vikings players who have criticized Zimmer — or who have not raved about him — are offensive players. Even as a head coach, Zimmer had no time for offense. When Rhett Ellison criticized Zimmer after leaving the Vikings, many of us ripped him. Ellison is probably pretty satisfied right about now.

As a result, I have to say — you were right, Mothman. He turned out to be Marvin Lewis, only WITHOUT the many playoff appearances.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:35 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:44 am
Moth:

Nice to see you posting here. The board is better when you engage in the discussions!


Thank you!

I'm excited that we're about to see some major changes to the team. I hope they will be positive.
Who do you want to see hired as the next coach of the MN Vikings? Do you think the Wilfs will slide Rick into a "senior' leadership/ consultant role, making way for a new GM as well? If so, anyone you like in that role? I have a busy day w/ work today, but I'll be paying attention to the news when I can. It's a huge day for the franchise, and hope springs eternal. :v):
It does!

I think there's a good chance Rick Spielman will slide into a leadership/consultant role with the team that will move him away from football operations. I didn't know who I'd want in that GM role other than someone with a track record that suggests greater potential success than Rick's had. Sorry, that's not much of an answer.

Regarding head coach: I don't know! Jim Harbaugh is rumored to be interested in another NFL HC job. I think he'd be an intriguing option, although I haven't seen his name linked to the Vikes and he'd probably make more sense with the Bears.

If the Vikes decided to follow trends and go the "young gun" route, Jerod Mayo of the Patriots would be an interesting roll of the dice. He lacks experience though. the Titans OC (whose name escapes me) is also a possibility, as is Byron Leftwich.

There are a few current HCs who could become available that would be worth interviewing and some former HCs worth considering too.

I just don't know. Every candidate has an upside and downside. Do you have your eye on any candidates for the HC or GM job?
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:50 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:18 am
I, of course, thought differently in the beginning. After watching the Vikings' defense fall to the bottom of the pack in the early 2010s, I was happy to have a guy who could stop the other team. If you remember, the rules for offense were getting more lenient at that time, but they weren't quite the flag-footballesaue nature they are now. I believed at the time that Mike Zimmer was the right man for the job, and having won a division championship in just his second year, I'd say my belief was vindicated in the beginning. And his former players — they RAVED about him.

As it turns out, I was wrong in the long run. Zimmer ended up being the abrasive curmudgeon that other GMs had said he was. And as head coach, he found out that he couldn't just coddle his defensive guys while ignoring the offense, as he did as a DC. Funny how virtually ALL the Vikings players who have criticized Zimmer — or who have not raved about him — are offensive players. Even as a head coach, Zimmer had no time for offense. When Rhett Ellison criticized Zimmer after leaving the Vikings, many of us ripped him. Ellison is probably pretty satisfied right about now.

As a result, I have to say — you were right, Mothman. He turned out to be Marvin Lewis, only WITHOUT the many playoff appearances.
I would have preferred to be wrong but at least he delivered some fun moments and a tremendously entertaining 2017 season. It IS interesting most of the criticism has come from former offensive players.

As an aside, there's a certain irony to seeing Zimmer's defense near the bottom of the league this season while the Leslie Frazier-coached defense in Buffalo is ranked #1 in both yards and points allowed. I think that speaks to the importance of situation and personnel at least as much as coaching ability. I don't bring it up to suggest the Vikes should have stuck with Frazier. It's just ironic.
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Re: The Aftermath: What's next after the Vikings debacle at Green Bay?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:04 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:50 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:18 am
I, of course, thought differently in the beginning. After watching the Vikings' defense fall to the bottom of the pack in the early 2010s, I was happy to have a guy who could stop the other team. If you remember, the rules for offense were getting more lenient at that time, but they weren't quite the flag-footballesaue nature they are now. I believed at the time that Mike Zimmer was the right man for the job, and having won a division championship in just his second year, I'd say my belief was vindicated in the beginning. And his former players — they RAVED about him.

As it turns out, I was wrong in the long run. Zimmer ended up being the abrasive curmudgeon that other GMs had said he was. And as head coach, he found out that he couldn't just coddle his defensive guys while ignoring the offense, as he did as a DC. Funny how virtually ALL the Vikings players who have criticized Zimmer — or who have not raved about him — are offensive players. Even as a head coach, Zimmer had no time for offense. When Rhett Ellison criticized Zimmer after leaving the Vikings, many of us ripped him. Ellison is probably pretty satisfied right about now.

As a result, I have to say — you were right, Mothman. He turned out to be Marvin Lewis, only WITHOUT the many playoff appearances.
I would have preferred to be wrong but at least he delivered some fun moments and a tremendously entertaining 2017 season. It IS interesting most of the criticism has come from former offensive players.

As an aside, there's a certain irony to seeing Zimmer's defense near the bottom of the league this season while the Leslie Frazier-coached defense in Buffalo is ranked #1 in both yards and points allowed. I think that speaks to the importance of situation and personnel at least as much as coaching ability. I don't bring it up to suggest the Vikes should have stuck with Frazier. It's just ironic.
You know, some guys are just better as coordinators. Leslie Frazier did a good job as DC for the Vikings. He helped them make playoff appearances in '08 and '09 and probably covered up a lot of Brad Childress's shortcomings. As a head coach, Frazier may have actually been the opposite of Zimmer. I often wonder whether he took less control on defense than he needed to take, possibly because he took the totality of being the head coach seriously. When you do that, you need great assistants. Unfortunately, Fred Pagac was never renowned for anything in the NFL, and Bill Musgrave was pretty much a failure, as well. It may well have been that substandard assistants helped lead to Frazier's downfall (it certainly contributed to Zimmer's downfall, even though the guy went through OCs like you and I go through underwear).

No matter ... Frazier is doing a great job as the DC in Buffalo, for sure.
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